PL kites auto-zenith?

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lotofwind

NSW

6451 posts

lotofwind

NSW, 6451 posts

11 May 2007 8:18am

snapped a line on my PL in the surf the other day.
took me half an hour to get in,got smashed by waves ect.
it didnt sink like these people(that know s.h.i.t)about PL say they do.

put new line on,relaunched,back out enjoying myself.
if this happend to me flying a pump up(notice the action of pumping is like ****ing,ok,maybe i **** different because i need both hands)the surf would have shreaded the kite,wouldnt have got out again straight away,kite repairer would have stung me hundreds to fix,kite value would have halved.

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

11 May 2007 8:52am

I think slaveys explaination is actually quite good .Building on it I know that the tips have more reflex .this might also induce auto stable .The original arc had lots (and lots of auto Z )and the venom has less (and less auto Z )

quote:
Originally posted by Overpowered

And there we have it YOU HAVE NEVER BUILT A KITE and you don't know the **** what you are talking about.

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

11 May 2007 9:06am

Wow Relly - What the F.U.C.K.!

Slave - showing your true colours there, pole speak at its best Luff Curve hahaha, induced drag, inbuilt ROTFLMAO!! Low, weird string science, good stuff mate, thanks for trying!!!

Followed by a real user stating the kite did not sink after 30 mins, surviving an inflato killing surf rescue, after you tried another slag.

Like I said its typical stuff on here, from the usual typical twits.

Have a close look at a Pl kite the next time you see one folks, especially if it is sitting at the top of the window with NO input from the flyer.

Its all about the front lines, and the self equalising and centralising structure of a ram air inflated foil flying mainly by deflecting air, with the small amount of lift it generates being countered by the large amount of drag it creates, and these forces focussed into an malleable arc that collects theses forces of deflection, lift and drag at the arcs apex.

Threadjacker there is only lift, and on kites it is minimal, most of the forward motion from a kite is deflection induced, not via lift.
Lift is produced at a near right angle to the wing axis, so it does not matter which way the wing is facing realtive to the ground or water, it will produce lift in any direction, there is no negative lift, there is only lift or no lift.
Same with electricity and the light switch, there is current flowing when the switch is on, but there is not negative energy flowing when it is off, there is just no flow.

Cya and

Goodwinds

steve

Relly if you truly don't care, then prove it and don't post here in this thread again, you are not contributing, just slagging and being negative. And burn my picture.

fences

VIC

89 posts

fences

VIC, 89 posts

11 May 2007 11:09am

quote:
Originally posted by Kitepower Australia

Why should I let people who have never flown this kite slag it off?

AHHHHH HAHAHAHAHA

YOU HOMO-F.U.C.K.ING-SEXUAL

You won't let people slag a piece of equipment they've never touched before hey?
Does this apply to yourself too??
Ooohhh let's see...
Surfboards in the surf perhaps? You seem to have a HUGEMUNGOUS (sp?)opinion of the use of this equipment at competition level yet from what I understand you don't ride one. How are you in the position to comment?
Let me not bring up Best kiteboarding either.

For someone at the fore-front of our sport, you're a pretty immature character. Why don't you grow up.

SHAME STEPHEN SHAME

BAM! HOOK. LINE. AND SINKER!

And slave, I feel sorry for your mother.

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

11 May 2007 12:57pm

Bam, hooked you into this thread too!!

Your one and only post on the subject of PL kites and their ability to auto Zenith is saying a lot about your level of maturity Bobby and your sub teenage homphobic tendecies.

Thanks for the praise, but am I really at the forefront of the sport??

I grew up surfing, I did it for 20 years+, I can ride a surfboard with a kite or just to surf, all of us from the early days of kiteboarding can ride surfboards, because that is all there was to use.

Where is the record of this humungous opionion of mine on the use of surfboards in comps??
Or is that just another lame slag off - yep!

And why don't you start a slagfest on Best too while you are at it, may as well eh?

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

quote:
Originally posted by fences

quote:
Originally posted by Kitepower Australia

Why should I let people who have never flown this kite slag it off?

AHHHHH HAHAHAHAHA

YOU HOMO-F.U.C.K.ING-SEXUAL

You won't let people slag a piece of equipment they've never touched before hey?
Does this apply to yourself too??
Ooohhh let's see...
Surfboards in the surf perhaps? You seem to have a HUGEMUNGOUS (sp?)opinion of the use of this equipment at competition level yet from what I understand you don't ride one. How are you in the position to comment?
Let me not bring up Best kiteboarding either.

For someone at the fore-front of our sport, you're a pretty immature character. Why don't you grow up.

SHAME STEPHEN SHAME

BAM! HOOK. LINE. AND SINKER!

And slave, I feel sorry for your mother.

joespencer

QLD

167 posts

joespencer

QLD, 167 posts

11 May 2007 1:41pm

only 10 more pages to go to equal "SHARK STORIES"- come on "PL kite auto zenith"

meerkat

644 posts

meerkat

WA, 644 posts

11 May 2007 12:15pm

this topic is crazzy and very entertaining. Sent my fox box back as i can't find time to watch tv and this post.

I have been meaning to ask, and sorry but its a serious question. The PL doesn't sink(or sinks eventually) what happens to the kite when its raining? Does the kite absorb the water and how does this affect the performance? am genuinely interested.

Juddy

1103 posts

Juddy

WA, 1103 posts

11 May 2007 12:31pm

In my experience, when my Venom gets wet, it's an absolute SOB to fly for about 10/15 mins by which time it has usually dried out. The windier it is,the quicker it will dry out.

It is really really slow to turn when wet, if it's looking like it's going to pour down I won't go out.

All jokes aside, the more you fly them the less time they spend on the water...

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

11 May 2007 2:47pm

good question
If it is raining allow a couple of extra knots of wind and they fly fine.They don't absorb water but water can come in through the LE vents which then goes out through the bleed vents at the tips .They are more sluggish than LEi's in the low end when it rains .

quote:
Originally posted by meerkat

this topic is crazzy and very entertaining. Sent my fox box back as i can't find time to watch tv and this post.

I have been meaning to ask, and sorry but its a serious question. The PL doesn't sink(or sinks eventually) what happens to the kite when its raining? Does the kite absorb the water and how does this affect the performance? am genuinely interested.

meerkat

644 posts

meerkat

WA, 644 posts

11 May 2007 12:54pm

would it be fair to say that when a PL(and friends) are wet they fly like an inflato that hasn't been pumped up correctly? i.e. they don't hold their shape very well and have reduced response times?

If i get my GK wet and sandy, yeah baby!, then its a bugger to fly until it drys out.

Also can you adjust the PL to fly like an inflato if you wanted to? might sound stupid, but could be useful if moving from an inflato to a PL

Josh K

QLD

318 posts

Josh K

QLD, 318 posts

11 May 2007 2:57pm

kiting sucks and so do the people in this sport.

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

11 May 2007 4:13pm

quote:
Originally posted by meerkat

would it be fair to say that when a PL(and friends) are wet they fly like an inflato that hasn't been pumped up correctly? i.e. they don't hold their shape very well and have reduced response times?YES

If i get my GK wet and sandy, yeah baby!, then its a bugger to fly until it drys out.

Also can you adjust the PL to fly like an inflato if you wanted to? might sound stupid, but could be useful if moving from an inflato to a PL

Not sure what you mean here perhaps Mr bonk who asked the initial question who demoed the kite could help here(flies LEIS tried the venom) .Generally my advice to anyone (beginners just starting or experienced trying one ) is not to be afraid of flying afggresively ie really crank the bar to get the most out of it

mrbonk

NSW

483 posts

mrbonk

NSW, 483 posts

11 May 2007 5:39pm

quote:
Originally posted by meerkat

would it be fair to say that when a PL(and friends) are wet they fly like an inflato that hasn't been pumped up correctly? i.e. they don't hold their shape very well and have reduced response times?

If i get my GK wet and sandy, yeah baby!, then its a bugger to fly until it drys out.

Also can you adjust the PL to fly like an inflato if you wanted to? might sound stupid, but could be useful if moving from an inflato to a PL

The Venom2 that I demo'd flew pretty much the same as my LEI kites do, but with a couple of notable exceptions.

First is the (now infamous) auto-zenith of course.

Second, it doesn't luff (well, I couldn't get it to do it anyway). There were a couple of moments where my LEI kites would have well and truly fallen out of the sky on slack lines, but the V2 just sort of flattened out and drifted backwards until the line tension came back on (one of my mates later commented "WTF was that weird thing your kite was doing??"). Then it simply resumed its shape (*without* the customary hauling that you get when you save a falling LEI) and continued flying as normal.

Third, I had to get used to sheeting on/off for power. I normally ride my LEI kites fully powered up on the knot. There's no reason why you couldn't do that with the V2, but they depower so well that you'd be robbing yourself of 3/4 of the usable wind-range of the kite if you did.

When I got it in the water the first time, I had no idea how to relaunch it. I remembered half of the technique (how to get it to roll over) but not the other half

Consequently, it was on the water for about 10mins I guess before I got back to the beach. At no point did it look even remotely like sinking......it just floated on top as I slowly made my way back to the beach. Upon relaunch, the small amount of water that had entered the kite (I'm not sure how it gets in....perhaps through one of the repairs this one had on it??) trickled out of the velcro drain things on the tips and it was fine.

The couple of other times I ended up with it on the water (100% rider error), I managed to relaunch it fine (in roughly the same amount of time it takes me to get my 5th line LEI kites relaunched). After relaunch, I remember noticing that the fronts of the tips weren't holding their shape correctly to begin with (presumably because they were wet), but this went away after a very short time. After that, it flew fine. I didn't notice any water coming out of the tips either, so I can only assume it takes more than a couple of minutes for water ingress to start.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

meerkat

644 posts

meerkat

WA, 644 posts

11 May 2007 4:13pm

cheers, thats spot on. My only(and very short experience) gave me an impression they were a bit slower with a softer feel. I'd be willing to try them again, maybe in a smaller size, think i flew a 14m or something like that.

Guess i will wait for a demo day and remember to do my 50 hail mary's so asnot to appease anyone. Out of interest, have any of the die-hard PL(etc) riders given inflatoes a go? (particularly the newer Bows and hybrids?)

mrbonk

NSW

483 posts

mrbonk

NSW, 483 posts

11 May 2007 7:42pm

quote:
Originally posted by meerkat

cheers, thats spot on. My only(and very short experience) gave me an impression they were a bit slower with a softer feel. I'd be willing to try them again, maybe in a smaller size, think i flew a 14m or something like that.

The power delivery is much smoother than I'm used to with my LEI kites, so in that respect yes, it was a softer feel. Gust handling was infinitely better. The one I had was a 13, but I was still out (and boosting *big*) in wind that would have normally had me coming in for my 8M Nemesis

. In that sort of wind, I reckon a 10M one would be absolutely awesome

sandgroper

368 posts

sandgroper

WA, 368 posts

11 May 2007 7:01pm

With all due respect, I would have to say that KitePower is closer to the mark in understanding the PL auto zenith. ThreadJacko is also correct in some respects, although scientifically its a little more complicated.

This topic is worthy of an PhD thesis in Aerodynamics and Aeronautical Engineering. I suggest the ignorant abusive high-school-bully-boy posters read the comment:

"Please: Keep it fun! ...and no abusing anyone! Thanks!"

before they press "PostMyNewReply". Perhaps instead, they might show a little more RESPECT for the pioneering genius of Peter Lynn (et al) who managed to engineer Auto Zenith into a power kite with (evidently) very little prior research to help him.

In simple terms, the PL kite falls slightly out of shape (flexes) as it descends toward the horizontal and deflection of air is affected to give the kite a little more sideways (therefor upward) boost to bring it back up. Kind of like an auto-aileron. Essentially its a gravitational effect.

The leading edge is effectively fixed by the front two lines which support all the lift of the kite. They do not move as the kite descends. The trailing edges are effectively free to move in their directions of travel (unless you pull on the bar).

The trailing edge of the side that is mostly vertical is no longer being pulled "down" (toward the kiter) by gravity, instead, gravity is now pulling at that trailing edge sideways - a direction in which it has no movement - or if the kite is low enough it may actually move slightly "upward" (away from the kiter").

Meantime, back at the trailing edge of the other side - the one that is mostly horizontal - this is now subject to greater gravitational fluences than it had at zenith, and that make the trailing edge want to fall slightly.

The net effect is that unless you pull on the bar to straighten the trailing edges up, the kite will want to rise. A simple test of this is if you pull on the bar sufficiently when the kite is lowered (to pull the edges back into "shape"), the kite will no longer auto zenith. Try it ! It wont!

However, the proposition that upward 'lift' is influenced by the amount of horizontal surface area is incorrect. Understandable, but incorrect. The confusion arises because it is no mere coincidence that the kite does this. Its been engineered into the design. WELL DONE PETER LYNN !!!!

BTW, this cant be achieved in current inflatables because the tips are made rigid. If an inflato allowed the tips to flex like a PL V2 then you might get some auto zenith happening in infalto's too. God knows what it would do to the rest of the inflato's performance though.

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

11 May 2007 9:36pm

Interesting .I spoke to Peter about it today and it is interesting that in our discussion his work and discoveries with large single line kites for years has quite a big effect on his traction kite work

quote:
Originally posted by sandgroper

With all due respect, I would have to say that KitePower is closer to the mark in understanding the PL auto zenith. ThreadJacko is also correct in some respects, although scientifically its a little more complicated.

This topic is worthy of an PhD thesis in Aerodynamics and Aeronautical Engineering. I suggest the ignorant abusive high-school-bully-boy posters read the comment:

"Please: Keep it fun! ...and no abusing anyone! Thanks!"

before they press "PostMyNewReply". Perhaps instead, they might show a little more respect for the pioneering genius of Peter Lynn (et al) who managed to engineer Auto Zenith into a power kite with (evidently) very little prior research to help him.

poor relative

9106 posts

poor relative

WA, 9106 posts

11 May 2007 9:37pm

quote:
Relly if you truly don't care, then prove it and don't post here in this thread again, you are not contributing, just slagging and being negative. And burn my picture.

Why do you build me up buttercup, baby
Just to let me down and mess me around
And then worst of all you never call, baby
When you say you will

To you I'm a toy but I could be the boy you adore
If you'd just let me know
Although you're untrue, I'm attracted to you all the more
Why do I need you so

waveslave

4263 posts

waveslave

WA, 4263 posts

11 May 2007 10:39pm

quote:
Originally posted by sandgroper

This topic is worthy of an PhD thesis in Aerodynamics and Aeronautical Engineering.

lol.
I might write a thesis on why doona-kooks really need to get a life.
Man, 6 freaking pages of geeky tech-talk about how a stupid kite floats skyward,
like a kids helium party-balloon slipping from small fingers.

And when the flying mattress climbs way, way up to the top bunk,
what happens then ?
Oh yeah, the rider dives the sack of spuds back down again.
Uppppp, down.....uppppp, down.
Kite goes up, kite goes down.
Kite goes up, kite goes down.
Amazing !
hahah

Tell me, what's so wonderful about auto-zen anyway ?
I've never needed it.

tobes

NSW

1000 posts

tobes

NSW, 1000 posts

12 May 2007 12:45am

If you wipe out in the surf, your kite will probably still be flying when you get it together, vs crashed, relaunch in waves, 5th line wrapped etc etc.....

Cloud goes up, cloud goes down.....

St Kite

VIC

73 posts

St Kite

VIC, 73 posts

12 May 2007 1:11am

Peter Lynn Venom 2, 16m
New, not used or a demo $1550

Nic
0418 583 233

Spend more time kiting, less time pumping, fixing, crashing

waveslave

4263 posts

waveslave

WA, 4263 posts

11 May 2007 11:24pm

quote:
Originally posted by tobes

If you wipe out in the surf, your kite will probably still be flying when you get it together, vs crashed, relaunch in waves, 5th line wrapped etc etc.....

So is that it ?
Is that the only reason for auto-zen ?
(Let's not even mention about dicking around on a public beach doing dumb stuff while parked at 12).
You know I hate that sh1t.

So it's just fear of crashing the kite in the surf ?
Well, I'll tell you something.
It's going to happen oneday.
Auto-zen or no auto-zen.
Don't dread the inevitable.
Have a back-up plan and learn to fly a kite blind.

Spacemonkey!

2288 posts

Spacemonkey!

SA, 2288 posts

12 May 2007 1:16am

quote:
Originally posted by waveslave

So is that it ?
Is that the only reason for auto-zen ?
(Let's not even mention about dicking around on a public beach doing dumb stuff while parked at 12).
You know I hate that sh1t.

So it's just fear of crashing the kite in the surf ?
Well, I'll tell you something.
It's going to happen oneday.
Auto-zen or no auto-zen.
Don't dread the inevitable.
Have a back-up plan and learn to fly a kite blind.

He's onto something here, kiting when your smashed is so much more fun, and less painful.

stnkygoat

NSW

230 posts

stnkygoat

NSW, 230 posts

12 May 2007 2:55am

I know a couple of people who fly C kites for the lower wind ranges and have a PLK for higher wind, gustier stuff.

Strangely they seem like completely normal people with few conflicts of personality. Woah.

I'm loving reading this thread - it's brilliant!

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

12 May 2007 8:49am

OK ,once again for those who missed it .Waaay back in the beginning when slave was just a schoolyard bully and was just moving out of pull ups .I (and others)came across a kite that actually made it easier for people to learn on(particularly when ,You see, people have to learn in the surf here and the economic reality was that this kite actually helped people get hooked faster and so I had a higher conversion rate of noobs to doona lovers ,sold more gear and was able to make a a few bucks out of it way back in year dot when none was doing it and the LEI publicity machine didn't mean a thing to mr 'f... that looks good show me how its done 'and still is the case ,here anyway .When they were learning on blow ups they couldn't really see the light at the end of the tunnel ,as they spent alot of the time realunching downed kites ,getting dragged in by waves and tearing the kites,unless of course they were really dedicated like slave, whereas without cutting corners ,they often got a taste for kite and board in the surf very early in the piece on a mattress(helped em get the top bunk so to speak).
'Plus also we have a very sensitive area where even 8 years ago the lifeguards and local poleys weren't very happy about downed kites ,lines in the water ,inconvenience to other water users innocent beachwalkers getting smashed by a downed kite from Joe noob who just got pushed sideways by a wave and crashed ontop of them or Joe cool pulling a handlepass with a kiteloop and blowing it and wiping out the griswalds on their sat arvo beach walk,and all that stuff (which happens alot less with PLK ).Now the funny thing is that others around the world discovered the same thing and despite the hate mail and fear of becoming ghey ,went with it.Plus also wavriders in particular like (sorry to upset anyone here) Jarman (that's right he is from another planet so he doesn't count)like a kite that performs pretty much as well as the other stuff going around but it less likely to go in the drink and get shredded (day over ,expensive repair bill ,worthless kite etc)on the one windy day that we happened to get in 3 weeks that lined up with the early release from swmbo or work)and actually works really well for tht kind of riding.

So there you go
(now I don't expect the doona haters [sheet lovers]to understand any of this but thought I would answer the question)

quote:
Originally posted by waveslave

quote:
Originally posted by sandgroper

This topic is worthy of an PhD thesis in Aerodynamics and Aeronautical Engineering.

lol.
I might write a thesis on why doona-kooks really need to get a life.
Man, 6 freaking pages of geeky tech-talk about how a stupid kite floats skyward,
like a kids helium party-balloon slipping from small fingers.

And when the flying mattress climbs way, way up to the top bunk,
what happens then ?
Oh yeah, the rider dives the sack of spuds back down again.
Uppppp, down.....uppppp, down.
Kite goes up, kite goes down.
Kite goes up, kite goes down.
Amazing !
hahah

Tell me, what's so wonderful about auto-zen anyway ?
I've never needed it.

kittycat

QLD

8 posts

kittycat

QLD, 8 posts

12 May 2007 10:46am

I have been reading this forum for a number of years and have learnt a great deal from it whilst I was learning to kite. What I can't stand is the intellectual morons who feel it is their passion in life to abuse anyone with an opinion they don't agree with. Their own life must be so lacking that the need to abuse and taunt others, with differing opinions, is needed to fulfil their deficient personalities. I currently ride LEI kites but I did have a demo on a 13 venom 2. On the day it was gusting up to 29knts and I did not fair well when this happened. I did not get a good go on it but felt more comfortable on my LEI but would like to have a go on a smaller version in better conditions. I am so used to riding an 8 or 10m LEI I was not used to the slow turning but I am hoping a smaller version of the venom is quicker to turn. I did like the auto zenith feature though as I felt far safer.

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

12 May 2007 11:29am

even tho it is not answering the question but as a continuation of the story I was telling, another reason they got a toe in back in the dark ages, at the turn of the century ,a 14 m flat ar 3.5 std arc (PLK 1120 ARC) was cheaper than a 5 m WIPIKA bucket ,there were quite a few buggy riders here already familiar with traction kites who got into kitesurfing and chose a jumping /float machine over a bucket.Plus the little hand pump that came with the bucket made you look like you were having a w..k when pumping up,which could be a bit embarrasing.

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

12 May 2007 3:41pm

I reckon you might be onto the truth there Mr Float, so all the older kiters, like the slave and rello, are paranoid about being seens as w.a.n.k.e.r.s. with little pumps?

So why are they continuing to post on this thread and prove it?

Enquiring minds need to know!

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

poor relative

9106 posts

poor relative

WA, 9106 posts

12 May 2007 6:47pm

LMAO Stevie, you have to resort to petty name calling to drive your point home hahahhahaha
I thought you were above all that. Clearly i was wrong....

You are indeed weirder than me.

xtortya

322 posts

xtortya

WA, 322 posts

12 May 2007 7:43pm

weirder, but no where near as hot.

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