NotWal said...

I haven't read all this thread so at the risk of repetition:

The following was lifted from Wikipedia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6] In 2009, according to the UNODC, 60% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm

And from the same article:

Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it. Higher rates are found in developing countries and those with political instability.[22][26][27]

The interesting things are -
1) Almost half of all shootings are accidental. There is an interesting rule of thumb that goes "It doesn't matter how careful you are if you handle guns regularly you will have an accidental discharge". That's a little hyperbolic perhaps but evidently more correct than false.

2) The homicide rate in the US is extraordinary, in spite of or because of the prevalence of guns.

It seems pretty clear that what ever the problem is, guns aren't the answer.

Good god, Facts!

I'll spoilt it a bit more then,

According to wikipedia,(all I did was look up "medical malpractice death rates in the USA") medical malpractice is responsible for over 195000 deaths in the USA each year.

kinda makes careless use of firearms almost feel safer than visiting your doctor.

not saying you should be careless with firearms- or avoid your doctor, just pointing out that figures can be manipulated to say anything you want.

log man said...

lachlan3556 said...

So does that mean you believe the military isn't a worthwhile/worthy direction for someone to go as a career?


BTW its the National Guard, not exactly the army/airforce/navy they're talking about...

Im trying to think of the last time I saw an Ad poster that didn't prey on the weakness of a target audience. Just look at the cosmtics crap they publish, or car ads

The stakes are a little bit different , wouldn't you say.......The armed forces kill, maim and destroy.....they're own. The Ponds institute is only partially responsible for the beauties on "The Shire".

I'd agree the stakes are different, but who believes the ad without doing more research (or taking into account what they've seen of war on TV). There will always be those who are a bit slow/gullible, and they aren't always the lower class young males

Mark _australia said...

evlPanda said...

lachlan3556 said...

So does that mean you believe the military isn't a worthwhile/worthy direction for someone to go as a career?

He was illustrating that we condition the poor and the working class to go to war. We promise them honor, status, glory, and adventure. We promise boys they will become men.

Tell me it ain't so.

I think the many white collar professionals who join Army Reserve to help out may object to that statement.

Damn right they would object, the W.A. Army Reserve unit I belonged to (many years ago) was almost entirely white collar and high level professionals with years of university and studies behind them.

Regarding the US National Guard- up until recently, it was only supposed to be used inside thier parent states, best Aussie equivalent would be a combined military reserve and State Emergency Service- only being called out for use by the State Governor (not the Federal Govt.)
I dont know how- but the U.S. Federal govt. moved the goal posts and now they are being used to prop up the regular military overseas.

stephen

sn said...

Mark _australia said...

evlPanda said...

lachlan3556 said...

So does that mean you believe the military isn't a worthwhile/worthy direction for someone to go as a career?

He was illustrating that we condition the poor and the working class to go to war. We promise them honor, status, glory, and adventure. We promise boys they will become men.

Tell me it ain't so.

I think the many white collar professionals who join Army Reserve to help out may object to that statement.

Damn right they would object, the W.A. Army Reserve unit I belonged to (many years ago) was almost entirely white collar and high level professionals with years of university and studies behind them.


stephen

To quote logman - "good god, Facts!"

Hmmm ...... do I believe him, who thinks they are all gun nut rednecks, or you - who has actually been a member.
Hmmmm

NotWal said...

I haven't read all this thread so at the risk of repetition:

The following was lifted from Wikipedia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6] In 2009, according to the UNODC, 60% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm

And from the same article:

Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it. Higher rates are found in developing countries and those with political instability.[22][26][27]

The interesting things are -
1) ........ There is an interesting rule of thumb that goes "It doesn't matter how careful you are if you handle guns regularly you will have an accidental discharge".

Where the hell does that come from? There is no excuse for an accidental discharge, ever.
No modern properly manufactured unmodified firearm can go off without a deliberate pull of the trigger. Well, to qualify that, SOME can if they are cocked and the safety is ONLY a trigger safety, AND they are subject to a ridiculously high drop (like off a two story building). That however is easily mitigated by not actioning the firearm until ready to shoot and not relying on mechanical safeties. IE proper training and using one's brain.

Firearms like a Glock do not have the firing pin "cocked" and held back under spring pressure, so cannot go off even if dropped from 30,000ft. ONLY a full pull of the trigger can make it discharge.

Statements like yours are made by those with no knowledge of how firearms work (mechanically) and are seized by the anti-gun lobby to be used in their propaganda in the media. Trouble is, the masses have no idea how a gun works, same as they have no idea how the space shuttle works, and they believe it.

Total unabridled rubbish.

NotWal said...

Mark _australia said...

Where the hell does that come from? ...

Statements like yours are made by those with no knowledge of how firearms work (mechanically) and are seized by the anti-gun lobby to be used in their propaganda in the media. Trouble is, the masses have no idea how a gun works, same as they have no idea how the space shuttle works, and they believe it.

Total unabridled rubbish.

Standard gun safety trope.
Check with your mates. Ask them if they have had accidental discharges.

The interesting FACT though is that there are MANY accidental shootings.

Not one of my shooting mates, or any of their mates, has had an accidental discharge. Accidental shootings are caused by total fkheads with a round chambered who pull the trigger, or total fkheads who lighten triggers themselves with no knowledge of how to work on a trigger. They should not be allowed to have guns.
Same as those who kill themselves with chainsaws by not using them correctly.

The interesting FACT is that 17 y/o's can buy a 6L Commodore and kill themselves and others.

I'll admit all (three) of my unintentional shots were my own fault, except one that was due to a rifle having a gunsmith work on the trigger who knew less than I, and buggered it up (later I find out he is trained as a fitter and turner only, not a gunsmith, good with barrels - lousy with everything else). I should have tested it beter though. Another was while spotlighting, round chambered and nervous as it was my first time out, and I forgot to raise the bolt after not taking a shot (I got a BIG talking to after that one). The other was duck hunting, my fingers were that cold and numb I didn't even feel the trigger as I lifted the gun to shoot, and let the shot off too early.

Bad as it is to fire off without meaning to, all were harmless due to obeying basic firearm safety rules.

NotWal said...

Mark _australia said...
....
Not one of my shooting mates, or any of their mates, has had an accidental discharge. Accidental shootings are caused by total fkheads with a round chambered who ...

I guess you haven't asked them then.

Actually I have. None of them have had one.
Plus I can think of my last 17yrs on the range with 6-8 companions each time, and varminting/spotlighting - a good 10,000 rounds expended and not ONE single U.D.

Sorry if my experience is inconsistent with your anti-gun bias.

At any rate - look up the definition of "safe direction" and you will see that the one in a million accidental discharges should not be an issue. I reiterate that any accidental discharges that happen and result in injury relate to d!ckheads that should not have a gun. It is not correct to say that they are fait accompli and will happen regardless of safe handling.

I hate guns.

I think guns have there place in society, whether it be the one I live in or the USA. The laws regarding gun ownership in this country IMO are about as good as it gets, as they allow people with a genuine reason to own them. The process in WA seems to be very strict as it should be. We have a shooting range 2km's from our house, my 12 year old asked to join so I checked it out. I must say the regulations and training process was impressive in terms of safety, the people in charge of the facility were thorough and motivated by seeing guns as sporting equipment that can have lethal consequences if misused. PR, I too don't like guns and my wife has experienced the tragic loss of a friend through stupidity when it came to gun safety, my father attended too many fatalities when was a copper but I still defend the right of an individual in my country and the USA to own them. I would rather my son do something else but I respect sport and anyone willing to dedicate their time to it and have allowed him to begin the training process at the club. I think my wife and I represent a group of people that when confronted with a situation that challenges our beliefs can actually change those through investigation, education and a more open mind. I appreciate that this is not everyones situation but have followed this debate with interest and wished to share our story.

^^^^ and neither of those examples should ever happen!!!!

Mark _australia said...

NotWal said...

Mark _australia said...
....
Not one of my shooting mates, or any of their mates, has had an accidental discharge. Accidental shootings are caused by total fkheads with a round chambered who ...

I guess you haven't asked them then.

Actually I have. None of them have had one.
Plus I can think of my last 17yrs on the range with 6-8 companions each time, and varminting/spotlighting - a good 10,000 rounds expended and not ONE single U.D.

Sorry if my experience is inconsistent with your anti-gun bias.

At any rate - look up the definition of "safe direction" and you will see that the one in a million accidental discharges should not be an issue. I reiterate that any accidental discharges that happen and result in injury relate to d!ckheads that should not have a gun. It is not correct to say that they are fait accompli and will happen regardless of safe handling.

Yes and dickheads deserve to die ...right?

bakesy said...

I think guns have there place in society, whether it be the one I live in or the USA. The laws regarding gun ownership in this country IMO are about as good as it gets, as they allow people with a genuine reason to own them. The process in WA seems to be very strict as it should be. We have a shooting range 2km's from our house, my 12 year old asked to join so I checked it out. I must say the regulations and training process was impressive in terms of safety, the people in charge of the facility were thorough and motivated by seeing guns as sporting equipment that can have lethal consequences if misused. PR, I too don't like guns and my wife has experienced the tragic loss of a friend through stupidity when it came to gun safety, my father attended too many fatalities when was a copper but I still defend the right of an individual in my country and the USA to own them. I would rather my son do something else but I respect sport and anyone willing to dedicate their time to it and have allowed him to begin the training process at the club. I think my wife and I represent a group of people that when confronted with a situation that challenges our beliefs can actually change those through investigation, education and a more open mind. I appreciate that this is not everyones situation but have followed this debate with interest and wished to share our story.

Buy him a footy.

log man said...
Yes and dickheads deserve to die ...right?

You know that is not what I was saying. D!ckheads should not have firearms was all I said.

The fact that some knob shot his mate, because he was contravening one of the 4 internationally recognised firearms safety rules (note to non-shooters: Google it) does not mean we have to ban guns.

Same as we have not banned all manner of things that d!ckheads harm themselves with.

I was simply responding to Notwal's assertion that if people have guns there will always be accidental discharges. There should never be an accidental discharge, and even if there is one the gun should never be pointed at a human anyway!!! To spell it for those who have never shot anything - one of the 4 safety rules is "always point in a safe direction" ........ Always means always.
The definition of a safe direction is "if it goes off there is NO chance of injury to a person, and only minimal property damage could occur"
Now if everyone always followed that, then guns are safe, are they not?