DrJ said...

Having more gear just means you have to waste time deciding what gear to use!

And then if that's not bad enough you spend the rest of the session wishing you had rigged something else !

Am I right?

Yes for the first part, as it usually takes slightly longer to assess the conditions.
I can usually get it right and come in after a session where I have had the right gear for the whole session.

Skill and fitness can make up for varying conditions. You can watch a really good sailor on the equivalent gear planing almost continually, while other reasonably competent sailors spend quite a lot of time slogging around when the winds very variable.

KenHo said...

Chris, I saw some of your comments on BNA too, and I'm not disagreeing with what you say about performance inhibiting participation. I think your findings are very interesting
It does not always hold true though.
in the mid to late 90's there was a real shift away from performance focus in windsurfing
Robbie Naish came out strongly against cambered sails and pretty much killed them for a while.
All the talk was about de-tuning boards to make them more "fun" for the "average" sailor. But that gear bored me to tears. Sometimes it is about absolutes, not relative speeds etc. I like to feel on the edge, rather than perfectly in control. I'm not sure it improved sales or participation either, because windsurfing continued to head for it's nadir. Too many factors working against it.
Not to say that any of that applies to novices, because it does not. Your comments are undoubtably much more relevant there.

I'm not sure it's fair to compare a safety bicycle to a recumbent either. They are 2 different things. For a start, bicycle vs tricycle, but that's OK.
It does prove your theory about performance vs simplicity though. I love the simplicity of a safety bicycle.

Thanks

I thought the '90s were the heyday of the top-end no-nose speed needle, but I wasn't doing all that much windsurfing in those days so I can't comment. I'll keep an eye out for more info on what you said next time I go through old mags or talk to people, thanks.

I can fully understand loving being on the edge, it's just that for decades that's almost all windsurfing has promoted. The edge is great, but it's not the whole sport, and most people don't want to be there. Edgy sports are low on participation.

The recumbents I was talking about are the two-wheelers, which seem to be the majority. They were originally allowed to race with normal bikes but were banned in the 1930s after they stormed the world record.

To repeat, I'm certainly not knocking high performance, which is a fantastic part of our sport - it's just that presenting it as the whole sport (which is what windsurfing has been pretty much been doing for many years) surely reduces participation, because not many people really want to be on the edge.

I think we need to start taking bets on how many pages this thread will reach!

Good post Mr. Nacra.
Yes plenty of good 2nd-hand stuff, yes don't need to replenish every year, and so on.

To the newbies I teach, I lend old equipment (a 6yo sail, an old 145l I patched up), so they can try stuff and decide of their next purchase. They learn fast this way, fewer disappointments.

And too right you are: it is difficult to find a good crew to race a sailboat.
I changed my crew all over twice in the past 12 months - half not serious enough, the other half wanting to skip me own boat. Sheeesh.

Dinsdale
I agree with you about having a board big enough but i don't think that a centre board is necessarily the way to go. Yes it helps get up wind but personally if i had bought a board with a centre board i would have wanted to get rid of it after 2 weeks. I think do a lesson with someone to get the basics down with a centre board if you like but buy a planing board with a rear fin only and make it just a little smaller than what you think. It will be tough at first but it will take you further as far as what you can achieve on it and how long it will be before you have to buy another board.

Pierre
Yeah the cat was fun when there was enough wind to be flying a hull and hanging from the trapeze but i only went out probably 1 in 6 times that i wanted to due to crew and the wife not wanting to get back on after tipping it over in about 35 knots. So i took up windsurfing and it was the best thing i've ever done. Take the fun level of a cat and multiply that to the power of 10 and that's about right. Windsurfing is HEEEEEEAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPSSSSSS better and more rewarding when you do learn a new skill. I thought oh yeah i'll sell the cat and buy some new windsurfing gear and put the rest of the money in my pocket. Yeah right i got that hooked on windsurfing that i've spent about $4000 more than i got for the cat now in 5 months but you know what i couldn't care less the last thing i think about is money when i'm powered up flying across the water it's the best money i've ever spent. You can't take it with you and it's better than pissing it up against a wall. The last 4 days on the Gold Coast have been worth that money alone. Well nearly

A little smaller means still very floaty. I'm talking about 130-160 not 200-240. They are not exactly sizes that will sink. I've been through it all in the last 5 months since i started and just commenting on the way i did it after one 2 hour lesson. If someone wants to do it a different way that's fine there is more than one way to skin a cat. Forums are about opinions and mine hasn't changed i can beach start, water start, quick tack maybe 60% of the time and have been sailing the last 4 days in 30+ knot winds. I still have a tonne of things to learn and things to improve on but that's where i'm at 5 months down the track and what i recommended in my post is how i have done there is sure to be other and maybe better ways. Each person needs to make up there mind how much they want to push themselves and what they expect from themselves different strokes for different folks. I just think that a lot of people buy boards that are bigger than what they need to start with. Once you are past those first few hours of struggling the smaller board will help you learn quicker and take you further quicker. It will force you to develop skills and balance that you won't even know you need on a smaller board until you get on one. Big boards cover up a lot of mistakes. I know when i bought my smaller boards it showed up what i was getting away with on my "big" board. Again just my opinion.

qldnacra said...

Surely you would have to agree that someone who is learning and i mean early in the piece is going to have an easier time on a 5.0 if it hits 20 knots than the same person on a 6.5 in the same conditions. You could get by on one sail but you wouldn't spend as much time on the water if the wind gets up and that's when the real learning took place for me and the only way to learn this sport is to spend time standing on that board. You could buy the smaller sail i suppose but most of the time the wind seems to be on the lighter side and you wouldn't have enough power. I have found that having more stuff allows me to cover more conditions which in turn has meant more time on the water which has helped me learn quicker maybe it's not the same for everyone. It's just the way i see it and have done it. Doesn't mean i'm right like i said in my post it was just my opinion.

I live an hour or more form the water.Often it looks great and I set off but by the time I get there the wind has died to under 10kts or something else has happened.I have a lot of kit so that I can go out anyway..Mind you I agree that its easy to spend too much time changing rigs etc..[}:)]
As terminal says..fitness etc can help someone have a wider wind range..As an oldie who doesn't have the fitness or strength of a lot of you guys I use my wide range of gear to try and compensate..

SWS said...

I think we need to start taking bets on how many pages this thread will reach!

I think this one has got more than the girls in windsurfing one..

sboardcrazy said...

SWS said...

I think we need to start taking bets on how many pages this thread will reach!

I think this one has got more than the girls in windsurfing one..

This is possibly the most interesting thread I have read for some time in Seabreeze forums (if not the best) with all the varied and thought provoking responses about this amazing pastime. Thought the PWA racing this year was exciting but this stuff is more realistic!

Like Jesus to a Christian, windsurfing has been my saviour many many times over!

dinsdale said...
As for a planing board; is there such a thing as a non-planing board now-a-days? They all do in enough wind, and the beginners' boards around for the last 6 or 8 (since wide has been all the go for beginners) years plane very easily in not-too-much wind.

Yes even big polyethelyne boards from the '80s can plane.

"Beginner's boards" a great moniker to put people off. Back in the hey day anything longer than 10' was looked upon as beginners boards if you weren't racing. It became uncool to own one as the hype was to own short and faster boards, that put beginners under a lot of pressure, they didn't want to look like kooks and the industry kept reminding them that they were if they stayed with those longboards. Many people just didn't have the free time to learn (TOW) but the pressure was on them to upgrade...into something that was harder to progress on and many couldn't afford. So many gave up.

But in reality longboards, which by then (and now) had a stigma of being a "beginner's board", was and is a much more useful board than any of their shorter counterparts especially on the east coast of Oz where 15 knots was more common than 20 knots+ in our summer. This idea of moving to performance boards ASAP and spend even more money was off putting and the unneccesary pressure to plane hasn't changed either. High performance sailing is intimidating to those who don't do it. If it looks too hard to do they won't do it!

This is the very reason why longboard surfing has become popular, and in motorcycles the "cruisers" have taken over in sales from narrow focused sports bikes. They look like fun and require an achievable skill to most newcomers or older born-again surfers/bikers.

dinsdale said...
Making "... it just a little smaller than what you think." is the type of advice which turns away more people than it brings to the game.

I agree and see what I mean? Upgrade to something you are not ready for but having a good time with what you've got. Let people progress naturally and let them decide when they think they need (or afford) to upgrade gear. There is no need to rush.

I agree modern gear is easier to use, but if someone has their heart in getting into windsurfing but cannot afford even used modern shapes, they should not be discouraged to pick up an old '80s banger from a neighbours garage, as long as it has the volume and length they will be on the water sooner rather than procrastinating because modern gear is out of their budget. Pointing them towards lessons is more constructive, a good teacher will be able to teach them on old gear. Technique is the key. "Bend ze kneez" and "Root the sail" are instructions I remember well and eventually stopped me from falling off!

I look at it this way, if thousands and thousands of us learnt on '70s/'80s longboards and put up with those narrow boards there is no reason people can do it again and learn. Sure not everyone can do it for whatever reason but the point here is to get people on the water. If they are warned what to expect but encouraged to give it a go with the old gear they will be on the water sooner with realistic goals. Tell them the gear is crap and they won't use it, tell them they are forced to spend $2000 and they won't take it up in fear they might not like the sport or it's just too expensive.

Give them support rather than on sell 'em before they even get their feet wet! There are lots of cheap and free '80s boards waiting to be put on the water again! Don't write off the easy access and potential of these boards to get people out sailing. These boards are scattered around the country and tucked away even in country sheds.

I'm sure someone will disagree with me.

I think it is better to learn on a big wide board if people learn on old gear with no grip and little stability they will get pissed off and give up. I know how hard it was to learn on a windsurfer one design because it was my first board.

Bic do the Beach which is a big wide plastic board with a EVA deck which I think is also one of the cheapest new boards in Australia. I bet with enough win you could get it planing too. i think this would be a good choice of board to learn on.

http://www.bicsportwindsurf.com/products/boards,3,31/beach-225d,804.html

Mobydisc said...

My wife's board, an RRD Easyrider L is not exactly a board people would expect to plane on. Its a big wide thing with a bolt in centreboard. I've had it on the plane a few times though and its a wild ride.

The board lifts up in the centre. Once its up it is very difficult to control and is very tipsy. Not exactly fun to ride as its all over the place.

I'm not surpised it got uncontrollable, c'boards are for pointing, when you get on the plane you kick it up and if you want to point up use your rail or keep the centreboard down and stand on the rail to stop it railing up but loose speed. I'm sure bolt on centreboards are for light wind non planing use.

Pretty embarrasing that this thread happens to be one of the most popular on Seabreeze.

Can we change title to "is windsurf popularity still increasing"?

SWS said...

I think it is better to learn on a big wide board if people learn on old gear with no grip and little stability they will get pissed off and give up. I know how hard it was to learn on a windsurfer one design because it was my first board.

But you learned on it and then moved on. Everyone needed to learn how to balance, we all eventually did even with the skinny jobbies. The big slippery board did its job, it got another bod on the water. If aftermarket EVA deck grip was available back then in lengths, similar to what is available today from SUP suppliers, there would have been happier people back then. Offering them a self adhesive EVA deck grip to put on an old board now I think is more inviting than scaring away a potential newcomer with a new board price tag.

Offer them service and advice on how to use the old stuff is a sure way of getting return customers onto new gear....when they are ready. I don't think I'm being unrealistic?

Bic do the Beach which is a big wide plastic board with a EVA deck which I think is also one of the cheapest new boards in Australia. I bet with enough win you could get it planing too. i think this would be a good choice of board to learn on.

http://www.bicsportwindsurf.com/products/boards,3,31/beach-225d,804.html

Perfect, looks good and looks like it can be SUP'ed too, good marketing. How much are they as a complete rig or hull only?

Now look at this alternative/argument, an old used TC Runner, which sold in container loads in Oz, complete with rig and still useable for a beginner will cost under $200. There was one on eBay still in it's packaging that went on sale not long ago! Ideal for a learner, yeah maybe a little tippy compared to modern shapes but hey they didn't have to spend $2000 to try the sport out. Cheaper than renting and they can sail whenever and wherever they wanted. Just like many of us we learnt through persistence and were eventually hooked. Lots couldn't do it but you loose some in other sports too. Once these people start looking for something "better" they will turn up at the shops and buy boards like the Bic Beach.

If those new boards aren't labelled as beginners or learners boards but as all rounders that can be kept for a lifetime we might just be able to re-educate people and let people progress at their own pace without feeling they need to update next season once they've learnt to plane.

Short wide boards are better? Perhaps. I heard, since returning to the sport, that people wanted compact boards for storage, sure I believe that and can see those boards. But what are people doing with 10'-13' SUPs? Most are being transported on their roof racks just like we did with old windsurfers back then. That sends the storage and portability argument out the window.

Getting bums on seats with old gear is realistic and affordable. Let's cut the crap out and encourage them with useful solutions. If they can't afford new gear, or prices scare 'em, don't turn them away with them thinking this sport is for well heeled snobs only. This sport can be great again. It just has too many good things to offer and most of it is not in product.

I'll just step down from my soapbox and crawl back under my rock again with my flame suit on.....hmmm it's dark under here.

A long time back I bought one of the first starboard starts 280 long 1 meter wide for my wife to learn to sail on. It was the most stable easiest board I have come across to learn on. It was also a laugh to sail with a big fin and sail, easily got planning in light wind and was a real laugh to carve jibe. I miss that board for fooling around on when there is not much wind.