Is windsurfing popularity still declining?

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Dr Duck
Dr Duck
SA
450 posts
SA, 450 posts
21 Aug 2011 3:45pm
Yeah, I bought my Kona before the One design rig came out. Maybe the One Design rig is crap. Have used anything from a 5.0 wave sail to a 7.5 cambered sail.

I have used it for SUP paddling, but not in the surf. Slightest hint of a breeze and using a sail is my preference.

With enough people, I think it has great potential as a One Design class, but we haven't reach critical mass in this part of the world.
razzmatazz
razzmatazz
NSW
184 posts
NSW, 184 posts
21 Aug 2011 4:53pm
alright my 2c worth.
I started windsurfing after a 20 year absence. My first board was a 330 tyronsea i was given by my neighbor. After the first sail I bought a 2nd hand 140 JP board and stated buying sails!!!!
After 4 month. I by then managed to get into the harness and regularly into the straps I bought a 120 X-Cite. And 3 more sails. And A mast. That was actually four sails.
And now comes the point. It's alot harder for me to get the transition from the 140 to the 120 board then I thought. This board is so much faster and more difficult that I started to question the wisdom of my purchases. Yesterday I went down to Kyeemagh again - I live in the mountains - and struggled. My 6.6 was to large and my 5.3 to small. On the 6.6 I got so fast that it almost -well it actually did- scare me and on the 5.3 it was just a bit hard to get and stay on the plane all the time.
Now luckily for me this guy came up to me and gave me a head up. His encouragement made me do another tack and I feel much better about continuing until I get it.
Out of these experiences I conclude that the equipment is almost too good, too specialized and sensitive and that it is a really hard sport to learn.
Maybe expectations have risen to much. everyone wants to get planing and if that doesn't happen one quits.
And to all you good guys. Maybe stop once in a while and give a tip to the likes of me who are struggling and obviously beginners. It goes a long way re encouragment and joy.



And lotsofwind!!!
Whats a good beginners Kite set up. My son reckons windsurfing is too hard and wants to start kiting, go figure
Jeffrosail
Jeffrosail
QLD
169 posts
QLD, 169 posts
21 Aug 2011 5:00pm
Jeffrosail said...


Terminal said....

Now, if you're not planing, you're complaining.



That's it in a nutshell!! We have to have so much gear to cover all conditions.


Just been out planing (& some non planing). Once you progress from a beginner to planing you are hooked.
How many of you sailors from the early days got planing on the gear you had then
How does it compare to planing on modern gear you have now

Maybe we would get more people in to windsurfing if it was relatively easy to plane in light wind &/or relatively smooth water. It got me hooked as it was smooth water when I first planed Oh what a feeling!!!
terminal
terminal
1421 posts
1421 posts
21 Aug 2011 5:34pm
Jeffrosail said...

Jeffrosail said...


Terminal said....

Now, if you're not planing, you're complaining.



That's it in a nutshell!! We have to have so much gear to cover all conditions.


Just been out planing (& some non planing). Once you progress from a beginner to planing you are hooked.
How many of you sailors from the early days got planing on the gear you had then
How does it compare to planing on modern gear you have now

Maybe we would get more people in to windsurfing if it was relatively easy to plane in light wind &/or relatively smooth water. It got me hooked as it was smooth water when I first planed Oh what a feeling!!!



You did get planing in the 80's but it was on a long heavy board and with a sail with only one tiny batten at the top, so the top speed wasn't that high. The plastic fenced fin on my board hummed a different note for different speeds when planing. Even at those speeds, it was exciting.
Then boards without daggerboards was the next step, and a bigger sail with several battens, which would S-bend when you got overpowered and it was like trying to wrestle a bull by its horns.
Now you can blast at high speed in relatively light winds, and everything feels so light and nimble as you create a smooth path through the chop.

pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
21 Aug 2011 9:59pm
Those who want it right away want it right away - their limited patience is 5 minutes max.
As I said, I do not even encourage them and point them to some other easy activity.

So it doesn't matter the kind of equipment and conditions you teach in, they won't make it to planing.

Those who really want to learn, always end up making it, and eventually get to planing (should that be the ultimate goal).
Sabine
Sabine
4 posts
4 posts
22 Aug 2011 7:01am
Hi,
I'm from Germany and do windsurfing lessons at a small school at a quite large lake. We do have a lot of kids for windsurfing classes and offer "surfpool" for those who want to stick to it after they've received their licencse. This is, they pay a certain amount for the whole season and can come for windsurfing as often as they like.
In addition there a quite a few kids who are very enthusiastic about windsurfing and "earn" their windsurfing by helping at the school, carrying stuff etc.
Some even end up being windsurfing instructor themselves.
Zed
Zed
WA
1274 posts
Zed Zed
WA, 1274 posts
22 Aug 2011 10:27am
Sabine said...

Hi,
I'm from Germany and do windsurfing lessons at a small school at a quite large lake. We do have a lot of kids for windsurfing classes and offer "surfpool" for those who want to stick to it after they've received their licencse. This is, they pay a certain amount for the whole season and can come for windsurfing as often as they like.
In addition there a quite a few kids who are very enthusiastic about windsurfing and "earn" their windsurfing by helping at the school, carrying stuff etc.
Some even end up being windsurfing instructor themselves.



Hi Sabine. Where in Germany are you? Is the wind any good :) I lived in Frankfurt for 6 months no windsurfing though ha ha!
GazMan
GazMan
WA
848 posts
WA, 848 posts
22 Aug 2011 9:42pm
Sabine said...

Hi,
I'm from Germany and do windsurfing lessons at a small school at a quite large lake. We do have a lot of kids for windsurfing classes and offer "surfpool" for those who want to stick to it after they've received their licencse. This is, they pay a certain amount for the whole season and can come for windsurfing as often as they like.
In addition there a quite a few kids who are very enthusiastic about windsurfing and "earn" their windsurfing by helping at the school, carrying stuff etc.
Some even end up being windsurfing instructor themselves.


Begs me to ask the question that I was thinking of last week when reading others comments about improving the image of windsurfing, particularly with young people, can anyone name any high schools or universities in OZ that are actively involved in encouraging and teaching their students to master watersports like windsurfing and (dare I say it in this forum) kitesurfing?
gregc
gregc
VIC
1299 posts
VIC, 1299 posts
23 Aug 2011 8:13am
Yep University of Sydney. I'm sure there are probably others to.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8335 posts
NSW, 8335 posts
23 Aug 2011 8:44am
KenHo said...

Actually, it's the lack of schools to help people negotiate the learning curve that makes it so difficult. Schools can make it quite straight forward. I met a bloke once from a mob in Sydney called maybe Pirahna who said they did noob to instructor in 6 weeks. He may have been off his meds, of course.
Ski-ing is about the same difficulty, but has excellent schools (albeit supported by sufficient numbers) to get total nOObz up and ski-ing in no time.
Windsurfing is a jolly prickle of a sport to learn in Oz.
Have we not at one time all been beaten to a pulp by our gear, and loathed and hated every scrap of it with a bloody vengeance ??
Or was that just me ?



I thought it was just me..
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8335 posts
NSW, 8335 posts
23 Aug 2011 8:53am
SWS said...

I think in the end it all comes down to how easy it is to have fun. The harder it gets to have fun the more people you lose on the way. Windsurfing has a lot of barriers to having fun, wind, temperature, equipment other windsurfers back in the 80's with only one board and sail you could not see the potential of having more fun on a smaller lighter board or sail as there was not the choice thus you had fun with what you had cold, warm, windless or blown off the water.
Now if you are not having fun like every good sports person you blame your equipment or the conditions not helped by the bastard blasting past you on the latest gear.
Windsurfing needs to bring back the fun regardless of conditions or equipment to enable it to attract and keep more people into windsurfing.

Then again even back in the 80's I had a Div I a Div II and a funboard + a selection of sails!


Back in the 90's I'd turn up on the beach with my wave or slalom board and go out and be planing ( only weighed 61kgs wringing wet) and all the guys watching would get sucked in and come out and dog around. I got back into the sport in 2007 on the lake.I went out on my 1996 - 86 ltre waveboard in 12- 15kts and dogged around while all the blokes on big kit blasted past..[}:)][}:)]Not fun....I updated to 2008 freeride gear and newer sails .I still can't keep up with the guys but at least I now have something that will move in 12kts +
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8335 posts
NSW, 8335 posts
23 Aug 2011 8:59am
razzmatazz said...

alright my 2c worth.
I started windsurfing after a 20 year absence. My first board was a 330 tyronsea i was given by my neighbor. After the first sail I bought a 2nd hand 140 JP board and stated buying sails!!!!
After 4 month. I by then managed to get into the harness and regularly into the straps I bought a 120 X-Cite. And 3 more sails. And A mast. That was actually four sails.
And now comes the point. It's alot harder for me to get the transition from the 140 to the 120 board then I thought. This board is so much faster and more difficult that I started to question the wisdom of my purchases. Yesterday I went down to Kyeemagh again - I live in the mountains - and struggled. My 6.6 was to large and my 5.3 to small. On the 6.6 I got so fast that it almost -well it actually did- scare me and on the 5.3 it was just a bit hard to get and stay on the plane all the time.
Now luckily for me this guy came up to me and gave me a head up. His encouragement made me do another tack and I feel much better about continuing until I get it.
Out of these experiences I conclude that the equipment is almost too good, too specialized and sensitive and that it is a really hard sport to learn.
Maybe expectations have risen to much. everyone wants to get planing and if that doesn't happen one quits.
And to all you good guys. Maybe stop once in a while and give a tip to the likes of me who are struggling and obviously beginners. It goes a long way re encouragment and joy.



And lotsofwind!!!
Whats a good beginners Kite set up. My son reckons windsurfing is too hard and wants to start kiting, go figure

Yep..I think a lot of people on the forum have forgotten how hard it is to learn especially if you don't get much TOW or ideal conditions..recommending boards + 20 or not much more of your weight!?I've been sailboarding 20 years and get out regularly but relearning how to gybe has been a real dedicated effort.I still haven't got there..When you stack every gybe and have to waterstart it really drains your energy. You need to be pretty fit to stick at it..or a stubborn pig like I am..
GusTee
GusTee
NSW
266 posts
NSW, 266 posts
23 Aug 2011 9:59am
razzmatazz said...

alright my 2c worth.
I started windsurfing after a 20 year absence. My first board was a 330 tyronsea i was given by my neighbor. After the first sail I bought a 2nd hand 140 JP board and stated buying sails!!!!
After 4 month. I by then managed to get into the harness and regularly into the straps I bought a 120 X-Cite. And 3 more sails. And A mast. That was actually four sails.
And now comes the point. It's alot harder for me to get the transition from the 140 to the 120 board then I thought. This board is so much faster and more difficult that I started to question the wisdom of my purchases. Yesterday I went down to Kyeemagh again - I live in the mountains - and struggled. My 6.6 was to large and my 5.3 to small. On the 6.6 I got so fast that it almost -well it actually did- scare me and on the 5.3 it was just a bit hard to get and stay on the plane all the time.
Now luckily for me this guy came up to me and gave me a head up. His encouragement made me do another tack and I feel much better about continuing until I get it.
Out of these experiences I conclude that the equipment is almost too good, too specialized and sensitive and that it is a really hard sport to learn.
Maybe expectations have risen to much. everyone wants to get planing and if that doesn't happen one quits.
And to all you good guys. Maybe stop once in a while and give a tip to the likes of me who are struggling and obviously beginners. It goes a long way re encouragment and joy.



And lotsofwind!!!
Whats a good beginners Kite set up. My son reckons windsurfing is too hard and wants to start kiting, go figure


Razz, sounds a lot like my experiences. I started sailing regularly last year, so still got a lot to learn. I went down from a 135lt board to a 115, and it was almost like starting from scratch again. I had the 135 going very well, but 115 definately killed all confindence that I had built up. So stuck with it and got better. Then came along a 80lt. I thought here we go again, going to have to re-learn it all. But to my suprise it was not hard this time. Took little time to adjust and everything felt normal. So stay with the 120, once you have that under control, it doesn't get that much harder and you should be able to sail just about aything and it's more fun.

jermaldan
jermaldan
VIC
1572 posts
VIC, 1572 posts
23 Aug 2011 10:29am
Looks like this thread is going for 8 or even 9 pages.
Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3576 posts
NSW, 3576 posts
23 Aug 2011 10:37am
Jeffrosail said...



Now, if you're not planing, you're complaining.



That's it in a nutshell!! We have to have so much gear to cover all conditions.


But we DON'T really have to have so much gear. Over the past 18 months I've sailed in just about everything from 0 to 35 knots (in the gusts) with one board and one sail, and used another in the waves. Sure, it's never been "the best" in any conditions, but two boards/three sails can get you into everything from light wind racing to waves.

We've just become so obsessed with performance, and a narrow type of performance at that, that most people think they need heaps of gear. And the industry has pushed that line to sell more gear, and accepted tiny performance ranges.

If we take as an example my other sports, we don't see such a hangup about performance. People accept that they buy less gear and accept that they won't have the perfect setup for every conditions, and the gear is designed for a wider range of conditions.

In boat sailing, most people just have one hull and (for small boats) one set of sails*. They don't head down to the sailing club and go "oh, it's a shifty 5 knot breeze so I'll take out the Laser with Rooster 8.1 sail, or the 7 metre, or the Radial" or "great, it's a sunny day and 15 knots so where's me hydrofoil Moth" or "gee, 25 knots, I'll rig the 18 Foot Skiff with #3 rig". In yachts they don't have one 40' boat for inshore racing in 5 knots, another 40 for inshore racing in 17 knots, and a 60 footer for long races.

In competitive cycling, you COULD say that you need an aero road bike for road racing, a crit bike for short races and pack riding, a Paris-Roubaix type for rough roads, a lightweight climbing bike for hilly events, a TT bike for time trials, and three different sets of $3,500 wheels for each bike. But people don't.

These other sports accept that you don't have to have gear designed exactly for each condition, so why can't we?

I'd bet that the right sailor (Jess Crisp, Rohan Cudmore, Wazza Holder) could win their division or overall in two or three national titles using just two boards, one or two masts and booms and two or three sails**, so why do so many people assume we need so much gear in windsurfing?

We seem to put so many limits on our sport by the way we think. It's a damn shame.


* not counting those who have older sets of the same size.

** In the right conditions, for example, Jess could win the Raceboard and RSX nationals with an RSX and 8.5, then use that mast and boom with two different sails and a waveboard to take on the wave nats - and as a former World Cup wave champ she'd be hard to beat. Wazza wins his age divisions in One Designs, and I'd guess he could win the Grand Masters at the wave nats with one board and two sails if he tried.
Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3576 posts
NSW, 3576 posts
23 Aug 2011 10:51am
Jeffrosail said...

Jeffrosail said...


Terminal said....

Now, if you're not planing, you're complaining.



That's it in a nutshell!! We have to have so much gear to cover all conditions.


Just been out planing (& some non planing). Once you progress from a beginner to planing you are hooked.
How many of you sailors from the early days got planing on the gear you had then
How does it compare to planing on modern gear you have now

Maybe we would get more people in to windsurfing if it was relatively easy to plane in light wind &/or relatively smooth water. It got me hooked as it was smooth water when I first planed Oh what a feeling!!!



We definitely got planing on the original Windsurfers in the '70s, and regularly. I've only had a GPS on a Windsurfer One Design once, with a top score of 25.4 knots and 22.5 for 10 seconds in crappy conditions. I'm sure that in the right conditions, an original Windsurfer would be able to top that, so it's DEFINITELY planing.

How did it compare? It felt amazingly good in those days... I'm talking screaming, yelling, hooting good.

It doesn't have the same feeling as planing on modern gear. Most modern gear definitely has a much better top end speed - it has to 'cause it's taken a massive hit on light wind speed. And it's designed for that lock-in and go feeling; older boards feel very, very loose and heavy.

But it's all relative. That locked-in feeling can feel a bit restrictive and repetitive from some perspectives, while desperately dancing on a wobbly strapless deck can seem to be either a pain in the arse or a challenge that is deeply satisfying to master - it depends on the way you look at it.

Is the One Design I sail now pretty slow in planing conditions? Sure, but who cares? Everything is relative. The stuff people now think is dog slow was once leading edge and breathtakingly fast. If something felt amazingly good in 1985 it can still feel amazingly good now - the wind and water haven't changed. All that is changed is our perspective, and that's under our control. I regularly find myself amazed how much I still love sailing something very close to the first board I ever got onto, back in 1978.

I used to go to events with 2 or 3 longboards and 4/5 longboard sails, a stack of slalom gear and three waveboards. We'd regularly have three rigs rigged up at once, and due to rapidly changing winds I found myself unrigging 7 rigs on afternoon. Now I use one board and one sail unless I'm going for a wavesailing weekend in the country.

That feeling of having specialised gear that is perfect for its conditions is wonderful, but the feeling of having incredibly simple gear that will handle everything is also wonderful. It's just a pity that these days the sport only wants to promote one kind of wonderful.

As Robby Naish said in a US mag, only if we could get the sport back into light winds, lakes (or bays) and longboards will it really grow. With modern designs, we can do it much better than in the old days - I can't believe how much better the Barracouta sails we use for Junior One Designs is compared to an old 4.5.

We've even taught my mother-in-law to windsurf, and we got a pic of three generations sailing side by side. Sure, she can't plane or loop, but she loves getting on the board every time she visits. She's an example of how the sport CAN be made accessible if we want it to be.
Reflex Films
Reflex Films
WA
1460 posts
WA, 1460 posts
23 Aug 2011 9:16am
Perth has solid numbers on the water on a windy arvo - and it only seems to be growing.

Places with average conditions like Dutch inn on NW or Scarns in summer with breeze will often have 30 plus sailors out - drop a bottom turn and you might get run over by the guy on the wave behind.

Definitely growth here in WA over the last 10 years.
qldnacra
qldnacra
QLD
455 posts
QLD, 455 posts
23 Aug 2011 11:28am
BUT the people you talk about are highly skilled and could probably sail anything. In my opinion the problem is when you have relatively limited sailing experience like myself you probably need more kit. The reason i say this is that we don't know all the tuning tricks and don't have the high skill level of the more experienced sailors. So in turn if we go out on something that is not right or out of the wind range we get beaten to a pulp. I can sail in conditions now that i would have had no chance in maybe 3 months ago but i have used the mindset that i would jump in the deep end and learn to swim while learning. If on the other hand my wife tried to do the same she would have given up from being scared and said it was too hard so i think that people with limited knowledge and ability should be on the closest to right gear as possible while they are learning. If they aren't it will make what is quite a hard sport to learn even harder and if they don't get a glimpse of the good side (fun) of windsurfing early then they won't stick with it. I got hooked early and loved it but if your doing nothing but catapulting and having trouble uphauling, before you can water start, then getting dragged out with the tide then why would anyone want to subject themselves to that. It's not fun and they won't persevere in a lot of cases. You can't just have one sail and go out in all conditions it just won't work. All that means is that you will only be in the right conditions maybe 10% of the time if that and then then end up not going out when it's wrong and you learning curve will be VERY slow. This in turn could make newcomers think that it just takes too long. I started in March this year and have had 3 new boards, 3 new sails and buying another one in a couple of weeks, 2 new masts and 1 new boom. I think that i have learnt pretty quickly but i have had the right gear for a wide range of conditions so i go sailing alot in just about anything. I still have HEAPS to learn but it's my gear that's got me where i'm at now and maybe a bit (alot) of effort. I must also give credit to 1 very good lesson that i had before i bought anything and a shop that has given me good deals on gear and good advice on what to buy and don't seem to mind me annoying the crap out of them on a weekly basis with constant questions. Maybe they do mind but they don't show it.
confused
confused
NSW
175 posts
NSW, 175 posts
23 Aug 2011 11:31am


Good point about boats only having one hull / set of sails..... but thats why I switched from sailing to windsurfing, more flexibility to adjust kit for a broader range of conditions.

Also agree that we can get way too hung up on having loads of kit when a limited amount will do - I did 12 months with 1 board and 2 sails and managed most sessions.

Having said that, and I realise this isn't helpful for people not wanting to plow too much money in to the sport, isn't the range of kit part of the fun? My wife never seems to understand than but I'm sure a lot of you do!!!
SWS
SWS
SA
196 posts
SWS SWS
SA, 196 posts
23 Aug 2011 11:41am
Reflex Films said...

Perth has solid numbers on the water on a windy arvo - and it only seems to be growing.

Places with average conditions like Dutch inn on NW or Scarns in summer with breeze will often have 30 plus sailors out - drop a bottom turn and you might get run over by the guy on the wave behind.

Definitely growth here in WA over the last 10 years.


I think Perth being Australia's windsurfing Capital is doing better than other places in Australia it would be great if we had those kind of numbers on the water in South Australia..
KenHo
KenHo
NSW
1353 posts
NSW, 1353 posts
23 Aug 2011 3:35pm
Chris, what planet are you from ?
I cruise a few forums for different things, and on every single one, people are obsessed with gear.
Don't tell me the yacht's you refer to don't have a locker full of sails.
Guys on guitar forums rant on about old vacuum cleaner leads for superior tone from their amps, or spend thousands just on cables or picks, not to mention endless tube and pick-up swaps etc. And that's after they have bought ten amps and 15 guitars.
Windsurfing is relatively gear light compared to many sports or activities.
Cycling is interesting though. You can certainly get carried away with gear, and there is a creature called a "weight-weenie", who measures the weight of the grease in bearings and spends hundreds on titanium bolts to save 5 gms, btu overwhelmingly, the power of the motor is recognised as king, and "HTFU" is the most common form of advice given.
They also have this amusing formula to describe the correct number of bikes you need. It's "n+1", "n" being the number of bikes currently owned.
I think it also applies to sailboards.

terminal
terminal
1421 posts
1421 posts
23 Aug 2011 5:40pm
When I go on holiday, I can only take one board, one mast and two sails. That was planing from 18 knots to 30 knots covered, which I would say is the ideal range for a large waveboard, and the wind range I enjoy the most. With the same amount of kit aimed at lighter wind, I could get more time on the water but a bit less enjoyment.

With 2 boards, 2 masts and 4 sails, I could cover 12 knots to 35 knots, which would be 90%+ of good conditions.

I actually have 3 boards, 3 masts and 6 sails, and if its between 13 knots and 45 knots, I'm covered for any water state.

Having more gear means you can sail more often on ideal gear, and as a result you enjoy the session more, but its a law of diminishing returns from one board and two sails onward.

GazMan
GazMan
WA
848 posts
WA, 848 posts
23 Aug 2011 5:52pm
KenHo said...

Chris, what planet are you from ?
I cruise a few forums for different things, and on every single one, people are obsessed with gear.
Don't tell me the yacht's you refer to don't have a locker full of sails.
Guys on guitar forums rant on about old vacuum cleaner leads for superior tone from their amps, or spend thousands just on cables or picks, not to mention endless tube and pick-up swaps etc. And that's after they have bought ten amps and 15 guitars.
Windsurfing is relatively gear light compared to many sports or activities.
Cycling is interesting though. You can certainly get carried away with gear, and there is a creature called a "weight-weenie", who measures the weight of the grease in bearings and spends hundreds on titanium bolts to save 5 gms, btu overwhelmingly, the power of the motor is recognised as king, and "HTFU" is the most common form of advice given.
They also have this amusing formula to describe the correct number of bikes you need. It's "n+1", "n" being the number of bikes currently owned.
I think it also applies to sailboards.


When I read the posts by Chris249 I thought he was right on the money re the simplicity of windsurfing going out the window long ago!

Part of the problem I think is that many Seabreeze regulars who have been windsurfing for a long, long time (including myself) have really forgotten the frustration and anguish they went through learning to windsurf!
DrJ
DrJ
ACT
481 posts
DrJ DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
23 Aug 2011 7:53pm
Having more gear just means you have to waste time deciding what gear to use!

And then if that's not bad enough you spend the rest of the session wishing you had rigged something else !

Am I right?
Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3576 posts
NSW, 3576 posts
23 Aug 2011 9:46pm
KenHo said...

Chris, what planet are you from ?

Planet reality, Ken


I cruise a few forums for different things, and on every single one, people are obsessed with gear.
Don't tell me the yacht's you refer to don't have a locker full of sails.

I wouldn't tell you that, and nothing in my post implied that.

But the vast majority of those yachts are designed with clear restrictions on performance. They are normally designed to rules like IRC or the old IOR or one design restrictions, which normally specifically include many rules that RESTRICT performance.

An example is one of the most popular big yachts in the world ever, the Beneteau First 40.7. The designers specifically didn't go all-out for performance in order to make it cheaper, and the rules encouraged that. For example, your handicap rating drops if the boat is heavier, or has more accommodation, or smaller sails, or a cruising style deck.

The result is that the world's biggest races can be won by a cheap production pop-out that noobs can also use for charter and cruising. It's as if the PWA was won by a Go.

Of course, there are "grand prix" go-fast machines as well, but the rating rules ensure that they generally get no advantage over cheaper beginner-friendly boats. That's very different to the windsurfing world!

Similar factors work in dinghies or small boats. Skiffs are fantastic, but they are basically only popular where skiff clubs pay for people to sail them. Most people sail slow, simple boats like Lasers, and there's vastly more people sailing dinghies than windsurfers.

Thirty windsurfers at a Perth beach on a windy day is good, but 30 people is a tiny number compared to the number who would be found most days sailing slow and rule-restricted yachts in the same city.



Guys on guitar forums rant on about old vacuum cleaner leads for superior tone from their amps, or spend thousands just on cables or picks, not to mention endless tube and pick-up swaps etc. And that's after they have bought ten amps and 15 guitars.
Windsurfing is relatively gear light compared to many sports or activities.
Cycling is interesting though. You can certainly get carried away with gear, and there is a creature called a "weight-weenie", who measures the weight of the grease in bearings and spends hundreds on titanium bolts to save 5 gms, btu overwhelmingly, the power of the motor is recognised as king, and "HTFU" is the most common form of advice given.
They also have this amusing formula to describe the correct number of bikes you need. It's "n+1", "n" being the number of bikes currently owned.
I think it also applies to sailboards.




Cycling could indeed a perfect illustration of why restrictions have helped keep one sport huge, and made one sport tiny.

Almost every cyclist - from the Weight Weenies to you when you chose a roadie a couple of years back - uses a bicycle that is about 35% slower than it has to be. They do this because these much slower bikes are more convenient.

The alternative to the bikes you, I, the Weight Weenies and about 1.2 million people each year buy are recumbents. They are about 35% quicker, but almost no one buys them because they are inconvenient and they are banned from normal races.

It's a perfect example of what I am talking about - people still get rabidly excited about getting the new $15,000+ Cervelo despite the fact that a bearded guy can build a lay-down bike from spare parts in his garage that will be miles quicker.

It's not about absolute performance, it's about relative performance. And in bikes, the UCI rules ensure that relative performance is dramatically reduced, but convenience is dramatically increased.

Even Cadel's bikes are hugely restricted, in weight, dimensions, aerodynamics, and just about everything else. That means that you can go and do well in cycle racing at any level using gear that your kid's grandmother could ride. That's one hell of a difference from windsurfing, where the manufacturers promote gear that even experienced sailors find hard to use.

Secondly, there is nothing like the degree of specialisation in performance bikes that there is in windsurfing. Most guys at my club have one racing bike that does everything from crits, to road races, hill climbs and time trials. If they do track, it's one something so restricted that even Olympians aren't allowed gears or brakes.

Time trialling has the least user-friendly gear, but even that is vastly more user-friendly than 99% of windsurfers.

Sure, plenty of people rabbit on about their bikes on forums. But even at major Sydney clubs, an old fart like me can win B Grade (second-quickest of four adult grades) on old bikes that cost you $1100 for a pair AND which get used to ride to and from work. That's a loooong way from a lot of windsurfing.

NOTHING OF THIS IS KNOCKING THOSE WHO LOVE HAVING HIGH TECH GEAR. High tech specialised gear is fantastic - but it's not the ONLY way to enjoy the sport, and sadly that seems to be the message that windsurfing has been pushing for a long while.
KenHo
KenHo
NSW
1353 posts
NSW, 1353 posts
23 Aug 2011 9:46pm
GazMan said...

KenHo said...

Chris, what planet are you from ?
I cruise a few forums for different things, and on every single one, people are obsessed with gear.
Don't tell me the yacht's you refer to don't have a locker full of sails.
Guys on guitar forums rant on about old vacuum cleaner leads for superior tone from their amps, or spend thousands just on cables or picks, not to mention endless tube and pick-up swaps etc. And that's after they have bought ten amps and 15 guitars.
Windsurfing is relatively gear light compared to many sports or activities.
Cycling is interesting though. You can certainly get carried away with gear, and there is a creature called a "weight-weenie", who measures the weight of the grease in bearings and spends hundreds on titanium bolts to save 5 gms, btu overwhelmingly, the power of the motor is recognised as king, and "HTFU" is the most common form of advice given.
They also have this amusing formula to describe the correct number of bikes you need. It's "n+1", "n" being the number of bikes currently owned.
I think it also applies to sailboards.


When I read the posts by Chris249 I thought he was right on the money re the simplicity of windsurfing going out the window long ago!

Part of the problem I think is that many Seabreeze regulars who have been windsurfing for a long, long time (including myself) have really forgotten the frustration and anguish they went through learning to windsurf!



I think he is right on the money with a lot of his comments too, just not when he says that windsurfers are more gear focussed than other sports.
That's just plain crazy talk.
Seriously, you I didn't even get started about audiophiles or doof-doof drivers or golfers.
I've not forgotten the pain of learning. i got chucked around the mast yesterday for the first time yesterday in 40 kts as a reminder if i needed one.

KenHo
KenHo
NSW
1353 posts
NSW, 1353 posts
23 Aug 2011 10:05pm
Chris, I saw some of your comments on BNA too, and I'm not disagreeing with what you say about performance inhibiting participation. I think your findings are very interesting
It does not always hold true though.
in the mid to late 90's there was a real shift away from performance focus in windsurfing
Robbie Naish came out strongly against cambered sails and pretty much killed them for a while.
All the talk was about de-tuning boards to make them more "fun" for the "average" sailor. But that gear bored me to tears. Sometimes it is about absolutes, not relative speeds etc. I like to feel on the edge, rather than perfectly in control. I'm not sure it improved sales or participation either, because windsurfing continued to head for it's nadir. Too many factors working against it.
Not to say that any of that applies to novices, because it does not. Your comments are undoubtably much more relevant there.

I'm not sure it's fair to compare a safety bicycle to a recumbent either. They are 2 different things. For a start, bicycle vs tricycle, but that's OK.
It does prove your theory about performance vs simplicity though. I love the simplicity of a safety bicycle.





pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
23 Aug 2011 10:05pm
said...

BUT the people you talk about are highly skilled and could probably sail anything. In my opinion the problem is when you have relatively limited sailing experience like myself you probably need more kit. The reason i say this is that we don't know all the tuning tricks and don't have the high skill level of the more experienced sailors. So in turn if we go out on something that is not right or out of the wind range we get beaten to a pulp. (...)

This is the knot of the question: some think that numerous gear will make it easier. I disagree, but it's only an opinion. Those who persevere with a wider range of conditions, rather than buy and buy again, become more versatile, once passed the learning hump.

Frankly, I have seen little to no improvement in the last 10+ years with the guys that have kept renewing the trailer - some are mesmerized still that new gear will buy them skills. (Plus their constant whingeing that windsurfing is expensive...)
Sabine
Sabine
4 posts
4 posts
23 Aug 2011 8:58pm
Zed said...

Sabine said...

Hi,
I'm from Germany and do windsurfing lessons at a small school at a quite large lake. We do have a lot of kids for windsurfing classes and offer "surfpool" for those who want to stick to it after they've received their licencse. This is, they pay a certain amount for the whole season and can come for windsurfing as often as they like.
In addition there a quite a few kids who are very enthusiastic about windsurfing and "earn" their windsurfing by helping at the school, carrying stuff etc.
Some even end up being windsurfing instructor themselves.



Hi Sabine. Where in Germany are you? Is the wind any good :) I lived in Frankfurt for 6 months no windsurfing though ha ha!


Hi, I live more to the north of Germany. Unfortunately too far from the coast to go there for a day trip but there's a large lake quite near my place (Lake of Duemmer) where I go whenever possible.
6 months without windsurfing is really bad
Jeffrosail
Jeffrosail
QLD
169 posts
QLD, 169 posts
23 Aug 2011 11:03pm
DrJ said...

Having more gear just means you have to waste time deciding what gear to use!

And then if that's not bad enough you spend the rest of the session wishing you had rigged something else !

Am I right?


Got a point there: If you have 2 boards to choose from then you have a 50% chance of being right.
If you have 5 boards to choose from then you only have 20% chance of being right.
One way to look at it.
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