julesmoto said.. It looks as though yours might be sewn along the bottom to prevent that happening.

Yes, that would be correct .

Well first sail after slipping today.
Made mental note to go at least once a week after seeing how bad the prop got after a period of neglect due to working on the trailer sailer.
That first sail is always great knowing that there is nothing on the bottom slowing you down but then again there's a little bit of pressure knowing that however fast you go is the fastest you're ever likely to go.
Only had the 105% jib (ok technically genoa) on the furler which is situation normal for me but with a predominately westerly component to the wind there was not much chop so mucked around off Barrenjoey doing about 7.5-7.8 knots mostly reaching which was okay for the relatively light breeze. Interesting watching the boat make light work of slicing through the light chop unlike the trailer sailer which tends to go up and down with it. You really feel like you're sailing something substantial.

Wife developed a migraine so it was pretty much solo sailing. Most of the time I was sweating like a pig because it was a hot day and I'm out of shape but still worth it.

Not so fun on the way home when I realised the furling line had done a few wraps around the base of the forestay. I tried to furl it and got it about three wraps around the foil and could get it no further. It was difficult to get those three wraps around the furler undone so that I could drop the sail. Furlers are great until they go wrong. Tried to mess with the rope inside the furler shroud thinking it had an override but in the end left it for another day which hopefully will be cooler.
Don't like taking my carbon sail down rather than furling it as I hate putting creases in it but there was no choice.

Anyway good to get out on my old faithful again so now back to the one in the front yard and making a wedge for the rudder to try and get rid of the weather helm and attendant heavy tiller.

Trying to get the bottom of the rudder or a substantial portion of it in front of the pivot axis. This may or may not be the solution as I may well need to tilt the mast forward and shorten the forestay/ lengthen the shrouds.

Always projects with a pair of mistresses!

r13 said..
Well done.
For the TS rudder helm load suggest don't tilt the mast fwd - leave it with what should be a slight aft rake. It seems like the heavy helm load is coming solely from the whole of the rudder lateral profile area being aft of the transom gudgeons/pintles pivot line as you indicate. So the solution is to rectify this - tilting the mast fwd will throw the whole balance of the boat out. Assume other Clubman owners have encountered this and rectified it? For awareness of others the below photo shows your boats rudder box and rudder.


This excellent video below shows the rectification - your post seems to indicate that you have seen this video. The Clubman 8 is mentioned near the end of it as an example of a TS needing such rectification.

Don't overdo the balance - the video mentions 18% of area in front of the pivot line - this is probably a top end number and is dependent on many issues in the overall yacht's design. Maybe start with 15% with your first effort and go from there - the % easily changed with different geometry timber wedges at the leading edge top of the rudder. I bought a s/h Van de Stadt Black Soo in the early 80s which had the rudder balance way over 25% - when under pressure upwind or reaching the rudder did virtually nothing for steering the boat where needed - bearing away behind other yachts was a nightmare - first slipping I angle ground the fwd overhang of the rudder off to get the balance back to about 12-15% if I recall right - fixed the problem perfectly.

Wow thank you very much R13 for that advice and video. Interesting that the Clubman is actually mentioned although it is not his boat.

After a lot of discussion with another Clubman owner who I spent some time with in Paynesville we decided to both make wedges. He was at his wits end and was ready to sell his boat after sailing his nieces Sonata 26 which has much less weather helm/lighter tiller.

We have resolved to cut steps in our wedges so that we can try a number of rudder angle changes before settling on one. Then when we are (hopefully) successful we will probably fill the front top of the box with epoxy to make the change permanent. Fortunately he is in a position to take his boat out next week to do some trials whereas I probably won't launch my boat again until next school holidays when my Victorian friend and I plan to take both boats up and sail around in Moreton Bay for a while before Airlie Beach again the following school holidays in July.

I couldn't be bothered launching down here on Pittwater when I already have a great yacht at Avalon although I have toyed with the idea of an interim trip to Port Stephens/Broughton Island. But for the desire to try this mod ASAP this trip however might also be better done in the NS38.

Plenty of other mods to test out at that time too which have kept me busy since I towed the boat back from Airlie in Sept :)

'A swing rudder design would enable the leading edge to remain in the same line as it originally was - but the whole leading edge of the rudder would be notched just under the swing rudder case so that the in the water leading edge length was fwd of the length in the case, giving the 12-15% balance. Easier to do it with wedges as you say.'That is interesting info. My sonata's rudder is set up like that and I have next to zero weather helm . Thanks.

cammd said..
Isn't balancing the sails the way to deal with weather helm. Having a skeg hung rudder makes that my only option.

Yes that's true and that's why I don't want to do anything permanent yet. It takes a lot of experimentation to determine the best course of action and what is causing things. I haven't even tried out anywhere near my boats full compliment of sails yet.
My Victorian friend however had new standing rigging made last week because he noticed deterioration and he has had the swept back shrouds lengthened and has taken out a shackle in the forestay.
He has two mainsails neither of which were made for the boat and one of which is cross cut and a little old. I have now sailed his boat in a wider variety of conditions than mine. Mine has composite radial cut sails so I will have to reacquaint myself with the sails and conditions which give rise to weather helm in my boat.

It's now a while since I sailed mine and as it was bloody windy in a new to me boat in unfamiliar reef strewn territory with the family on board there were a lot of other things to worry about apart from weather helm. I just want to have everything on board to be able to explore various options far from home next time.

how much rudder do you need to correct your weather helm? If not much then your solution is a good idea.
How's the comparative condition of your foresail and main? Knackered, stretched flat jib and battened main that still drives well would want to ride up to weather.

JonE said..
how much rudder do you need to correct your weather helm? If not much then your solution is a good idea.
How's the comparative condition of your foresail and main? Knackered, stretched flat jib and battened main that still drives well would want to ride up to weather.

Thanks. That was kind of my point mentioning that I had composite tri radial sails which don't stretch as compared with my Victorian friends boat. I was running the 100% jib in the Whitsundays because it was really windy although I did have the fully battened main reefed as well. Mostly to the second reef and wishing I had a third (which I will have next time).
I did note that the foot of the main doesn't seem to come all that much further forward even when double reefed but I guess that's a function of a high aspect ratio sail with roach.

cammd said..

julesmoto said..

It's now a while since I sailed mine and as it was bloody windy in a new to me boat in unfamiliar reef strewn territory with the family on board there were a lot of other things to worry about apart from weather helm.

I'm no expert on tuning sailboats , I just thought making mods to steering systems would be a last resort to deal with weather helm rather than a place to start.

The first place to start is to have the rig centre of effort (with mast a tad raked aft so that when running downwind hard you won't drive the bow into and under the ocean - obviously with crew sitting well aft) and the underwater hull profile centre of lateral resistance in the correct place so that the boat is balanced at (say) 10deg heel. With more heel you will get more weather helm as the rig centre of effort goes more off vertical and so the forward motion force of the sails causes a turning moment of the whole yacht up into the wind. Hull shape also plays a part in heeled helm balance.

So if this is done right - they are not all done right - the Santana 22 of a long time ago wasn't done right but had lee helm - I bought one as salvage and put a fractional rig on it with longer boom and J24 jib and it balanced perfectly - then you have passed step 1.

Step 2 is to design a rudder which has has a bit of balance to it so that it doesn't reef your arm off. The balance is typically in the range 12-15% as above. If you are going to try and cure an unbalanced rudder by mucking around with the rig centre of effort by raking the mast fwd then you will get nowhere and create more problems.

Many different rudder designs about.
There is weather helm due to incorrect COE compared to CLR locations. And there is high tiller loads due to unbalanced rudders. If both exist, then they have to corrected separately.

The rudder balance should be checked first to clear it away as in the correct % balance range, hence high tiller loads upwind and reaching and broad running are not occurring. If it is in the correct % balance range then the COE and CLR check should be done and plans made to rectify it - but not by raking the mast fwd.
The Clubman 8 high tiller load problem should have been noticed during commissioning trials of the first boat in the water, and rectified on it and hence all subsequent boats. Of course this needs good communication / co-operation / collaboration between designer and builder, including the builder doing the rudder geometry as designed and not something else. Or if the builder was concerned, flag it with the designer at an early enough stage to sort out a solution.
Would estimate that the tiller load on the Clubman 8 would not be much at all running dead downwind under sail in up to (say) 15 knots. But as soon as course change is made, the tiller would inherently load up more than it should.

Weather helm boat wants to turn onto the wind = . too much power aft, let the main sheet off and let the sail breath & if that ain't enough reef it. Little boats don't need a lot of wind, put a double or triple reef in at 10 - 15 knots I bet it will behave better, see how slow & comfortable you can sail it I've not sailed one but she may even sail to windward on the head sail alone, or even sail under bare poles, I know none of this is new to you Jules, but take it out and play with it without the family onboard before you drag it all the way up to Airlie.

woko said..
Weather helm boat wants to turn onto the wind = . too much power aft, let the main sheet off and let the sail breath & if that ain't enough reef it. Little boats don't need a lot of wind, put a double or triple reef in at 10 - 15 knots I bet it will behave better, see how slow & comfortable you can sail it I've not sailed one but she may even sail to windward on the head sail alone, or even sail under bare poles, I know none of this is new to you Jules, but take it out and play with it without the family onboard before you drag it all the way up to Airlie.

Like you say, you do need to ensure that the main is "breathing" on a fractional rig like the Clubman's, but from experience sailing a C8, Magnum 8.5 and similar boats, you don't need to reef at all in 10-15. That rig is very easy to depower and move the C of E forward by using mast bend and going down the traveller to create a flat, twisted mainsail shape. It's not only much quicker than reefing, it's much easier since you only have to pull a 6mm backstay and dump the traveller. Our J/36 has a similar style of rig and it's dead easy to go fast from zero to 27 true without putting down your drink to shorten sail at all, just by easing and pulling strings to flatten, twist and open the sheeting angles.

The C8 I raced a little bit went well (3rd on line at Marlay Pt IIRC) with no complaints from the back end about helm feel, but it may have had a rudder mod. In many fractional riggers, the mainsail should be luffing at the luff most of the time, or else the traveller is up too far.

The Ross 780 is quite a similar boat to the Clubman in many ways. It's a hot class in NZ and there's lots of pics like the one below that show the best trim has the mainsail twisted off, sometimes down traveller, but very rarely reefed.

Chris 249 said..

woko said..
Weather helm boat wants to turn onto the wind = . too much power aft, let the main sheet off and let the sail breath & if that ain't enough reef it. Little boats don't need a lot of wind, put a double or triple reef in at 10 - 15 knots I bet it will behave better, see how slow & comfortable you can sail it I've not sailed one but she may even sail to windward on the head sail alone, or even sail under bare poles, I know none of this is new to you Jules, but take it out and play with it without the family onboard before you drag it all the way up to Airlie.

Like you say, you do need to ensure that the main is "breathing" on a fractional rig like the Clubman's, but from experience sailing a C8, Magnum 8.5 and similar boats, you don't need to reef at all in 10-15. That rig is very easy to depower and move the C of E forward by using mast bend and going down the traveller to create a flat, twisted mainsail shape. It's not only much quicker than reefing, it's much easier since you only have to pull a 6mm backstay and dump the traveller. Our J/36 has a similar style of rig and it's dead easy to go fast from zero to 27 true without putting down your drink to shorten sail at all, just by easing and pulling strings to flatten, twist and open the sheeting angles.

The C8 I raced a little bit went well (3rd on line at Marlay Pt IIRC) with no complaints from the back end about helm feel, but it may have had a rudder mod. In many fractional riggers, the mainsail should be luffing at the luff most of the time, or else the traveller is up too far.

The Ross 780 is quite a similar boat to the Clubman in many ways. It's a hot class in NZ and there's lots of pics like the one below that show the best trim has the mainsail twisted off, sometimes down traveller, but very rarely reefed.

Thanks again everyone.
Lots of good advice and unfortunately I'm not sailing that boat again for nearly a couple of months and furthermore my recollection of my actual boat is now more than four months back which itself was only for a week and then only the second time the previous time being two months earlier and still for only a week.
Most of it was in around 25 knots gusting significantly higher without the ability to use the backstay which I had (reversibly) traded for sun protection.
In hindsight the inability to use the backstay was probably a very big disadvantage and furthermore my boat wasn't near as bad as the one I sailed more recently for a week in Vic in lighter winds.

I am however looking forward to learning how to sail the boat more effectively in April.

Meanwhile after one more sail on the NS 38 -hopefully tomorrow - I will be trading it for a fully crewed 900 or so footer next week ;).

Ramona said..
I had a day at sea today. First one for at least five weeks while I was installing a new gearbox behind the Beta 20. The mk1 SS34 has the engine in the saloon so it was fairly easy to lift up the engine and gearbox and do the job. I was busy in the shed with race car stuff at the same time so I had plenty of distractions.
Half a mile out after crossing the bar I had a small bat flying around the mainsail. I'm guessing he came out of the stackpack. He did a few laps then headed off for the shore. The new gearbox is pretty impressive and makes the boat feel very Rolls Royce!

Gotta love distractions!!

I think I must be easily distracted these days though at my age!!

Nice couple of days at Port Stephens with an (initially) fast double reefed and jib broad reach back to Soldiers Point from Shoal Bay this afternoon after glass out yesterday. Bit of a rolly night on and off at Shoal Bay but heaps of fish, a big turtle and a couple of trips in to the beautiful beach made it a treat.

Annoyingly only took the micro SD card plotter maps for Queensland (it has a nice touch screen plotter) as I had intended to go to Morton Island and this was just a substitute on the way home from Scarborough to avoid disappointment so I had to use a handheld phone for Navionics - and there are plenty of sand bars all over the place. Oh well back to Queensland next week anyway with my mates Clubman for the Bay to Bay and there are 4 Clubmans entered :).

Didn't back down on the anchor as outboard wasn't locking down (fixed today) so just dropped anchor (oversize Manson Supreme) and didn't check set. It has never let me down and it's soft sandy bottom. Was surprised this morning to see it at 4.5- 5 meters depth lying on the surface in the only direction we didn't face in 18 hours of 270 degrees pivoting due to light winds and light currents/swells. The 11 meters of 8 mm long link must have done the job alone! Pretty sure the Manson would have dug in however if the wind came up and the chain dragged straight.