Apologies, let me clarify.

Even Aus manages to achieve 100% vaccinations, we're not going back to normal, we're already in it.
Lock downs and masks are here to stay.

To be honest I'm all for vaccination - history has clearly shown it's value. But I am so god damn sceptical of the profit driven motives of big pharma, corporate agendas and the strings pulling government regulatory bodies. We live in an age of such information control (well we always have but it's just so easy and efficient now).

the narrative is so obviously construed on all fronts and for that matter and now the social media giants are playing god with cencorship to. deciding for us who are the tin foil brigade and who isn't

its a recipe for capture and corruption Infact it is becoming so transparent now it's laughable
You can argue all you want about a pissy graph and some article to somehow "prove" your argument / point of view. bickering over specifics rather than discussing the entire system as a whole.


for instance no one is talking about the fact that the vaccine is made from the COVID spike protein (it didn't have to be by the way there are other molecules that could deliver the vaccine but it would have taken a lot longer and a lot more money), doesn't stay at the point of injection - crosses the blood brain barrier and some preliminary data (by medical professionals - not that I even subscribe to its concrete validity because of this) is suspected to maybe be the cause of this long COVID issue we are having. This spike protein is know to produce cytokines - hence the inflammation issues these poor patients have.


not a peep on social media and when there is it is taken down. That is just one example of many the narrative is all set for one story and one story only.


and some of you suckers are lapping it up as the truth and the whole truth, just as they would hope.


Where is the messaging on basic health exercise, diet, to improve your immune system? No money in that obviously. Nah just take your quickly engineered vaccine, made from the same spike protein of a virus that is still running its evolutionary course, from companies that operate for one and only one purpose - to make their share holders money.


but I do see an inherent and sensible role for a vaccine. I'm not anti vacc at all. But Christ almighty I do not trust one the quick development and the concurrent messaging being spewed out by these monolithic corporate entities - via regulatory bodies, through social media filters.

And if you blindly trust anything politicians are saying - well you just gotta live a little longer I suppose and wise up. They are the very last people on earth you should trust.

airsail said..

kiterboy said..
Apologies, let me clarify.

Even Aus manages to achieve 100% vaccinations, we're not going back to normal, we're already in it.
Lock downs and masks are here to stay.

Well as an unvaccinated you had better hope so, otherwise life for you is going to become very difficult.Those vaccinated will get back to normal, travelling and working where they want, the unvaccinated will be masked up and worried about where the virus is coming from next.
As someone who is vaccinated, I'm looking forward to a normal life again.

I'm not worried about the virus.
Having said that, I'll be more than happy to get vaccinated once the long term data from the public clinical trials are gathered.

airsail said..
Those vaccinated will get back to normal, travelling and working where they want, the unvaccinated will be masked up and worried about where the virus is coming from next.
As someone who is vaccinated, I'm looking forward to a normal life again.

It's laughable that you think you'll be exempt from lock-downs and masks.

drlazone said..
Canada as of today:
77% one dose, 35% both doses (90+% in the elderly fully vaccinated).
Nobody reported increased cell phone receptions, their spouses still can't track& find them when needed.
The few hundred docs I know are all fully vaccinated.

Picture days a thousand words: striking Vaccination effect!
(2nd spike is with British& Delta strain as dominants)

Since IanK asked -


One issue with this graph is how you are all reading it and how the data is presented.

180 people in ICU who are unvaccinated, easy bit. I assume simple data presentation.

The rest do you have to add it up ? Is the blue and purple totals or breakdowns ?

If 77% of population have had one dose and 35% both doses => then this must mean that 42% have one dose, 35% have had two and the 77% is a cumulative number. Otherwise 112% of people have been vaccinated and the red data can't exist.

So is the graph also showing cumulative data or not ?

40 people in ICU with 1 dose at 14days ago.
20 people in ICU with 1 dose
Is this 60 people in ICU who have had 1 dose ? or is it 40 people at 1 dose total and 20 of those 40 people had 1 dose >14 days ago ?


Do I add up all the blue and purple to get 180 no vac from 33% of population versus 90 vac from 77% of population, or is it 180 versus 40 total ?

If you compare A with B, but split B into 10 bits and then compare A to B1 and A to B2 and A to B3 it is going to look quite different to comparing A to B.


One other issue (as kiterboy said, and I hate agreeing with kiterboy) is this in ICU from Covid or in ICU with Covid.

Could you also present the data "in ICU with no covid but vaccinated" against "in ICU with no Covid and not vaccinated".

Plus also the total in ICU in any one day prior to Covid.


Are people who are also statistically more inclined to get the jab also less inclined to ever end up in ICU due to lifestyle or other habits ?

Problem with statistics is that 99% of the time you can make them say whatever you want the reader to see without them actually really being wrong.

51% of people agree with me.

kiterboy said..
Does anyone know a source for stats on the long term after effects of having Covid (long-covid)?

How many people are suffering long-term debilitating symptoms/effects after 'recovering' from Covid and what are they?

Stats, not anecdotes, please.

Kiterboy, BMJ article here says around 10% cases continue to suffer post viral effects that affect multiple systems and organs throughout the body.

www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3026

Carantoc said..

drlazone said..
Canada as of today:
77% one dose, 35% both doses (90+% in the elderly fully vaccinated).
Nobody reported increased cell phone receptions, their spouses still can't track& find them when needed.
The few hundred docs I know are all fully vaccinated.

Picture days a thousand words: striking Vaccination effect!
(2nd spike is with British& Delta strain as dominants)

Since IanK asked -


One issue with this graph is how you are all reading it and how the data is presented.

180 people in ICU who are unvaccinated, easy bit. I assume simple data presentation.

The rest do you have to add it up ? Is the blue and purple totals or breakdowns ?

If 77% of population have had one dose and 35% both doses => then this must mean that 42% have one dose, 35% have had two and the 77% is a cumulative number. Otherwise 112% of people have been vaccinated and the red data can't exist.

So is the graph also showing cumulative data or not ?

40 people in ICU with 1 dose at 14days ago.
20 people in ICU with 1 dose
Is this 60 people in ICU who have had 1 dose ? or is it 40 people at 1 dose total and 20 of those 40 people had 1 dose >14 days ago ?


Do I add up all the blue and purple to get 180 no vac from 33% of population versus 90 vac from 77% of population, or is it 180 versus 40 total ?

If you compare A with B, but split B into 10 bits and then compare A to B1 and A to B2 and A to B3 it is going to look quite different to comparing A to B.


One other issue (as kiterboy said, and I hate agreeing with kiterboy) is this in ICU from Covid or in ICU with Covid.

Could you also present the data "in ICU with no covid but vaccinated" against "in ICU with no Covid and not vaccinated".

Plus also the total in ICU in any one day prior to Covid.


Are people who are also statistically more inclined to get the jab also less inclined to ever end up in ICU due to lifestyle or other habits ?

Problem with statistics is that 99% of the time you can make them say whatever you want the reader to see without them actually really being wrong.

51% of people agree with me.

Well the way I read it, (the graph could have been labelled better) is that there were 180 people in ICU on the 20th of May.

Today there are 55 people in ICU , probably only a few of the 55 were also there way back in May. Today 77% of the total population in Alberta ( or is it Canada? ) have had at least one dose and 35% have had both doses. 90% of the elderly are fully vaccinated, which is the subset of the population most likely in ICU. ( Assuming they are all pretty old in ICU, the 10% unvaccinated in that case make up 45 of the 55 people in ICU on the 1st July ie 81%)

The figures for what percentage of the total population in Alberta/Canada were vaccinated on 20th May are not given. Assume it was less than today hence the greater dominance of red back then.

ICU from or with Covid? Does it really matter? The folks in ICU without Covid are not included in the stats. The aim is to show that vulnerable folks are less likely to end up in ICU if vaccinated.

In ICU, vaccinated. but without Covid? That'd be the blood clotters wouldn't it?

Update tried to book in for the jab again today
still no bookings available
have tried now three times in last 7-9 days
If I see one more politician telling us to get the vaccine I'm going to protest
They need to make Pfizer available

also on the news tonight 5 cases of blood clots from AstraZeneca in aus this week

psychojoe said..

D3 said..

kiterboy said..
Does anyone know a source for stats on the long term after effects of having Covid (long-covid)?

How many people are suffering long-term debilitating symptoms/effects after 'recovering' from Covid and what are they?

Stats, not anecdotes, please.

Kiterboy, BMJ article here says around 10% cases continue to suffer post viral effects that affect multiple systems and organs throughout the body.

www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3026

I didn't bother with the whole article. I got up to "refer box1" which was just an anecdotal whinge Moreso than a statistic. Given the BMJ editors willingness to credit stats from an observational study on par with a an RCT, I'd question anything they publish.
A much more credible study has the post viral infection rate a little above the mortality rate.

Dear Pyschojoe ! The way i look at it is i'll b surfin and snoboardn os way quiker than the anti vax crew ! Its a fact of life now ! Scarey but true ??????

I remember on this forum, about a year ago, where some people were saying that any life has a measurable value, and in that case it was the value of older people to society. The argument was that those people were not worth much and not worth protecting for the sake of the economy. I.e. let them catch Covid and die instead of shutting down the economy.

Its interesting now to see people valuing their own life so highly that they won't take a vaccine in order to save other people.

The only common factor I can see there is that anyone that had both opinions is just selfish and worried about themselves. Nothing more.

If they were just applying the 'any life has a measurable value' approach, they would just take the vaccine for the sake of the economy. The cynic in me says that these are the same people that said to let the old people die.

drlazone said..
Would not be surprised if this becomes a yearly vaccination boosters

Why? People who survived Spanish Flu still have antibodies, as does anyone who survived SARS-1.

Last time I paid attention, the US had a third of its cancer patients not going in for treatment (let alone all those who haven't been diagnosed), the UK is seeing double the rate of stillbirths and falling birthrates, domestic violence doubled in NZ... off the top of my head.

This is a classic case of focusing on positive results of something ... and ignoring the unintended consequences.

Exactly.

Still too much BS flying around .

On US sites people endlessly scream about the 594,000 who have been killed by Covid-19.
However if you actually check the CDC website, those deaths are listed as INVOLVING Covid

In other words , WITH Covid.

www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

So, 87 year old uncle Jack who had advanced dementia and renal failure wasn't actually killed by Covid ...he just returned a positive test.

Same over here. Most deaths are in nursing homes. You don't go to a nursing home to get better.

tarquin1 said..
Well,one thing is lucky. Its not a deadly virus or half the population would be dead by the time governments made a decision to do anything.

The weird thing is that if it were obviously deadly like Ebola, people wouldn't be consulting their facebook pages for advice but instead getting the vaccine. As the isolation strategy has kept a lot of Covid cases at bay, people think its not a thing, hence the lack of enthusiasm for doing anything about it.

Well worth a read:

nzdsos.com/

I'm not convinced we need the vaccine for everyone. The virus is behaving exactly as was predicted.
More contagious but less deadly strains are taking over.
Original strain had 1.9% mortality while delta is only 0.3%.Vaccinate the vulnerable and let it go.

ABC news app this morning