Chris 249 said..
Matt, there are significant numbers of kids sailing LTs, like the current runner-up in the World Youth titles, and the top Australians from the last two T293 nationals. I'm not attacking the T293, but there's no real evidence that youth prefer it.

I think the average age of sailors in both classes would constitute real evidence regarding what demographic preferred what class.

windsufering said..

cammd said..

Chris 249 said..
Matt, there are significant numbers of kids sailing LTs, like the current runner-up in the World Youth titles, and the top Australians from the last two T293 nationals. I'm not attacking the T293, but there's no real evidence that youth prefer it.

I think the average age of sailors in both classes would constitute real evidence regarding what demographic preferred what class.

Hasn't the youth Age been lifted for the bic techno in Aust ?

I am not sure, it has always been a bit of a problem here whereby youth sailors would qualify on a techno to be selected to the AS youth team but then had to sail on an RSX at the youth worlds. The RSX is a step up from the techno and in some intsances the kids only had a matter of months to try and figure out how to sail a RSX against a very competitive international RSX youth fleet.

On top of that their parents had to find and fund a RSX kit on top of the cost of the camps and regatta's that are compulsory for a youth team member to attend, again often all within 6 months of being selected. Not surprising that windsurfing in the youth class has always been a struggle, it's all good to say kids prefer slower classes and less complicated boards etc. I don't think the problem in growing youth windsurfing is related to the gear be it techno or rsx or wally or even a foil if they come in. The problem with growing competitive fleets lies with AS, no other youth class has to qualify on one set of kit then find, fund and learn to sail another in 6 months, on top of that support for them has been all but removed, they let the national coach go just as a solid base is starting to form.

I think AS voted for a gear change to foils, I wonder what there plan is for youth sailors, qualify on a techno then find, fund and learn to sail a foil in 6 months with no specific foil coaching if selected. That seems like it will be even harder for a youth sailor given the speed of a foil. At least on slower classes you can still be on the same lap as the leaders.

What we have is a self fulfilling profecy, don't support the class, make it super hard to compete internationally, watch them fail and drop out then don't provide support because its not popular. Treat lasers sailors the same and I expect that class would dimish as well. Imagine making a laser sailor qualify on an opti in order to be selected for the youth worlds, there would be a mass revolution. Windsurfing is getting a ** deal, it needs to be changed.

Chris 249 said..

cammd said..

Chris 249 said..
Matt, there are significant numbers of kids sailing LTs, like the current runner-up in the World Youth titles, and the top Australians from the last two T293 nationals. I'm not attacking the T293, but there's no real evidence that youth prefer it.

I think the average age of sailors in both classes would constitute real evidence regarding what demographic preferred what class.

I didn't say the kids prefer LTs - as far as I can see some of them prefer LTs, some prefer T293, some RB, some FW, etc. But what we do know is that sailing kids in general do not tend to sail the faster, more complicated classes in preference to simple ones.

The average age is not really evidence about what kids prefern, because the average age is affected by the number of older sailors as well as the class' appeal to younger sailors. As an example, take three imaginary classes;

Class A attracts 200 15 year olds and 200 45 year olds. It has an average age of 30.
Class B attracts 50 15 year olds and no one else. It has an average age of 15.
Class C attracts 20,000 15 year olds and 20,000 45 year olds. It has an average age of 30.

Class C attracts far more kids but has the equal highest average age. Class B attracts far fewer kids but has the lowest average age.

The Laser Radial is a bit like "Class C" - it gets lots of oldies so the average age is quite high, but it is also the world's second most popular class for kids and therefore obviously attracts them.

When the Windsurfer Junior One was being promoted, it had a younger average age than the T293, so if you are correct then it was the preferred class for young sailors. It fell away due to the people who ran it dropping away, partly after getting tired from those sitting on the sidelines showing ****.

Please note that I did NOT make any comment that was in any way against the T293 or any other class until I had to defend the LT. I don't think the two classes should be rivals - they should both be trying to build up the sport. Every board has different strengths and each board can complement the others if some of them would work together to rebuild the sport instead of slinging ****.

I don't know what constitues evidence then, in some post's you seem to cite the numbers of kids in slower classes as evidence that they prefer to sail less complicated slower classes, you even make that point again in the first sentence of your reply. Why doesn't the same principle apply to T293 as evidence of preference for that class.

You guys just think the Lt kids only sail LT's LOL

It's pretty easy to kids racing when they see a fleet of 25 + LT's for a club race

windsufering said..
You guys just think the Lt kids only sail LT's LOL

Did I say that ???. I used the Techno as an example because they already have training and coaching programs well established. I would be very suprised if a youngster was sailing an LT only

cammd said..

windsufering said..

cammd said..

Chris 249 said..
Matt, there are significant numbers of kids sailing LTs, like the current runner-up in the World Youth titles, and the top Australians from the last two T293 nationals. I'm not attacking the T293, but there's no real evidence that youth prefer it.

I think the average age of sailors in both classes would constitute real evidence regarding what demographic preferred what class.

Hasn't the youth Age been lifted for the bic techno in Aust ?

I am not sure, it has always been a bit of a problem here whereby youth sailors would qualify on a techno to be selected to the AS youth team but then had to sail on an RSX at the youth worlds. The RSX is a step up from the techno and in some intsances the kids only had a matter of months to try and figure out how to sail a RSX against a very competitive international RSX youth fleet.

On top of that their parents had to find and fund a RSX kit on top of the cost of the camps and regatta's that are compulsory for a youth team member to attend, again often all within 6 months of being selected. Not surprising that windsurfing in the youth class has always been a struggle, it's all good to say kids prefer slower classes and less complicated boards etc. I don't think the problem in growing youth windsurfing is related to the gear be it techno or rsx or wally or even a foil if they come in. The problem with growing competitive fleets lies with AS, no other youth class has to qualify on one set of kit then find, fund and learn to sail another in 6 months, on top of that support for them has been all but removed, they let the national coach go just as a solid base is starting to form.

I think AS voted for a gear change to foils, I wonder what there plan is for youth sailors, qualify on a techno then find, fund and learn to sail a foil in 6 months with no specific foil coaching if selected. That seems like it will be even harder for a youth sailor given the speed of a foil. At least on slower classes you can still be on the same lap as the leaders.

What we have is a self fulfilling profecy, don't support the class, make it super hard to compete internationally, watch them fail and drop out then don't provide support because its not popular. Treat lasers sailors the same and I expect that class would dimish as well. Imagine making a laser sailor qualify on an opti in order to be selected for the youth worlds, there would be a mass revolution. Windsurfing is getting a ** deal, it needs to be changed.

That's a good good point about the transition to a new Youth worlds class.

I think you're right about the choice of board not being a big problem - even when we had 15 kids at titles in Junior One Design Windsurfers, we admitted that they weren't the ideal board for everyone. We held sessions where we introduced kids to slalom boards, and some of them went to T293. If we had more support (as we had from DAC, Barracouta Sail and WNSW) instead of more knocking, we'd have been able to do more. All I'm saying is that knocking a class does not help the sport, since they all fit different people and different situations.

As noted earlier, I don't think the Laser class is comparable, because the junior dinghy classes are so big and have been big for many years, even where they are not in the AS/Youth/Olympic stream. The Sabot, Minnow, Pelican, Cadet, Cherub and others are all outside the main Opti/420/Radial/29er stream and yet they are still far, far bigger than junior and youth windsurfing. They show that if you take away AS support, the junior dinghy classes still thrive - and so could windsurfing thrive without AS support. As someone who sails all types of craft bar kites, and most types of windsurfers, I think the reason the dinghy sailors get such good numbers and support is because they have worked so bloody hard for so bloody long, and they deserve it.

It's hard to say what AS should do about the Youth Worlds selection. We wouldn't have many kids if the selection trials were on RSX. AS can't force World Sailing to put the Techno into the Youth Worlds (which would probably have been the right thing to do IMHO). Sailors in other disciplines have had to shift classes when they went to the Youth Worlds. The cat sailors used to sail Hobie 16s, get selected on Hobie 16s with spinnaker (I think) and then race SL16s, yet they still got medals. The Youth Worlds two-handed dinghy used to switch from 420 (sailed here in small numbers) to Laser II (which was never much of a class here) almost from year to year, with the 470 used in between! The windsurfers used to get selected on Windsurfer One Designs and then medaled year after year on IMCOs. So we can't really blame AS or say that you can't switch classes and succeed.

I'm NOT criticising the Youths who go - I really respect them and in one case, taught one of them how to windsurf on my own board. It is really hard to get adjusted to the RSX, but we as a sport should take responsibility for the state youth windsurfing is in and not just blame AS. To build a sport these days we need a lot of volunteers working behind the scenes rather than pointing fingers, and windsurfing is not good at that.

cammd said..

Chris 249 said..

cammd said..

Chris 249 said..
Matt, there are significant numbers of kids sailing LTs, like the current runner-up in the World Youth titles, and the top Australians from the last two T293 nationals. I'm not attacking the T293, but there's no real evidence that youth prefer it.

I think the average age of sailors in both classes would constitute real evidence regarding what demographic preferred what class.

I didn't say the kids prefer LTs - as far as I can see some of them prefer LTs, some prefer T293, some RB, some FW, etc. But what we do know is that sailing kids in general do not tend to sail the faster, more complicated classes in preference to simple ones.

The average age is not really evidence about what kids prefern, because the average age is affected by the number of older sailors as well as the class' appeal to younger sailors. As an example, take three imaginary classes;

Class A attracts 200 15 year olds and 200 45 year olds. It has an average age of 30.
Class B attracts 50 15 year olds and no one else. It has an average age of 15.
Class C attracts 20,000 15 year olds and 20,000 45 year olds. It has an average age of 30.

Class C attracts far more kids but has the equal highest average age. Class B attracts far fewer kids but has the lowest average age.

The Laser Radial is a bit like "Class C" - it gets lots of oldies so the average age is quite high, but it is also the world's second most popular class for kids and therefore obviously attracts them.

When the Windsurfer Junior One was being promoted, it had a younger average age than the T293, so if you are correct then it was the preferred class for young sailors. It fell away due to the people who ran it dropping away, partly after getting tired from those sitting on the sidelines showing ****.

Please note that I did NOT make any comment that was in any way against the T293 or any other class until I had to defend the LT. I don't think the two classes should be rivals - they should both be trying to build up the sport. Every board has different strengths and each board can complement the others if some of them would work together to rebuild the sport instead of slinging ****.

I don't know what constitues evidence then, in some post's you seem to cite the numbers of kids in slower classes as evidence that they prefer to sail less complicated slower classes, you even make that point again in the first sentence of your reply. Why doesn't the same principle apply to T293 as evidence of preference for that class.

We're talking numbers versus proportions. The point is that a high number of kids sailing a class can be seen as evidence that they like it, whereas a high proportion of kids sailing that class doesn't necessarily mean the same thing if those numbers are small.

If 15,000 kids and 15,000 adults sailed a certain class (and with Laser Radials the numbers are probably around that range) it would be pretty good evidence that kids liked it, even if the high number of old people meant that the proportion of kids was "only" 50% and the average age was high.

If 4 kids and no adults sailed a class, then the proportion of kids would be 100% but the popularity would be low, and that would seem to indicate kids did not like it.

In the T293's case, in Europe both the numbers and proportion of kids are high and that's great. IMHO we just need the two classes with significant numbers of youth in Australia to work together, or at least not bicker. RQ and PYC, for instance, seem to have different cultures and therefore good reason to take different but equal angles on youth sailing.

We may be able to run a tiny Northern NSW junior regatta at the end of this season; if there were more of those we could grow the sport. Maybe we could get some SEQ kids down as well.

cammd said..

windsufering said..
It's pretty easy to kids racing when they see a fleet of 25 + LT's for a club race

How many fleets of 25+ Lt's are there in the country club racing every week, how many youths in those 25+ fleets.

Whats the reality, how easy is it really, it has not been easy for techno or rsx or raceboards, its taken heaps of work and heaps of time just to get a dozen or so kids and its not getting easier and I don't think foiling will be a magic cure either.

Mc cray yacht club sold their bic techno's to purchased windsurfers to start windsurf programs, since then all their
classes have been full of juniors . How crazy is that !

With the fleet sizes in other states and clubs I don't really care !
Grass root sailing starts at local clubs !

The level of racing on the Lt is the highest of all the windsurfer classes, we have world champions, aust champions etc etc not just in windsurfer classes . It's my belief that the best training you can do is racing

windsufering said..

cammd said..

windsufering said..
It's pretty easy to kids racing when they see a fleet of 25 + LT's for a club race

How many fleets of 25+ Lt's are there in the country club racing every week, how many youths in those 25+ fleets.

Whats the reality, how easy is it really, it has not been easy for techno or rsx or raceboards, its taken heaps of work and heaps of time just to get a dozen or so kids and its not getting easier and I don't think foiling will be a magic cure either.

Mc cray yacht club sold their bic techno's to purchased windsurfers to start windsurf programs, since then all their
classes have been full of juniors . How crazy is that !

With the fleet sizes in other states and clubs I don't really care !
Grass root sailing starts at local clubs !

The level of racing on the Lt is the highest of all the windsurfer classes, we have world champions, aust champions etc etc not just in windsurfer classes . It's my belief that the best training you can do is racing

That really is crazy , well done Vic

Most the kids that go on to racing can already sail and race dinghies !
for Mc cray yacht club its too early to tell !

Interesting read this is why the windsurfer Lt is the fastest growing class in the world
www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/10/23/impact-of-changes-in-the-sport/#.XbDrhZQ6RD1.facebook

love to see a raceboard do this.

Great vid.. great board.