Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
I'd also like to see wave boards ditch the fancy boxes and go back to future boxes for the front fins and us box for the rear. consistent across the industry. That allows surfboard fins and windsurfing fins to cross pollinate.
Please no! I think US box is an awful system and slot box works much better. Without derailing this thread, surfing fins might not be suitable/strong enough for windsurfing anyway.
Select to expand quoteptsf1111 said..Gestalt said..
I'd also like to see wave boards ditch the fancy boxes and go back to future boxes for the front fins and us box for the rear. consistent across the industry. That allows surfboard fins and windsurfing fins to cross pollinate.
Please no! I think US box is an awful system and slot box works much better. Without derailing this thread, surfing fins might not be suitable/strong enough for windsurfing anyway.
I find us box is great. What don't you like about it. I guess nuss boxes fill both use cases. so maybe nuss is the tech jump forward.
Whilst I like slot box it's flawed.. threads trip, jam up etc.. I've got lots of slot box boards and I'm getting over it..there are multiple thread spec and slot box internal widths.
can confirm futures boxes are more than strong enough. FCS is not as the plugs roll. fcs2 may be, have not tried it. Lots of board builders using surf boxes.
Select to expand quotebradsblah said..Gestalt said..
Is it really just a waist harness converted to a seat harness or something different..
Try it out.
I've often wondered if leg loops from a climbing harness might do the job?
I like the hook height of a waist harness, but it does ride up. If I have it so tight that it doesn't ride up, then I feel like it affects my breathing a bit.
Select to expand quoteMJP68 said..bradsblah said..Gestalt said..
Is it really just a waist harness converted to a seat harness or something different..
Try it out.
I've often wondered if leg loops from a climbing harness might do the job?
I like the hook height of a waist harness, but it does ride up. If I have it so tight that it doesn't ride up, then I feel like it affects my breathing a bit.
I wouldn't go near kite surfers with that setup.
Gear has progressively become lighter over the decades, kudos to the profession. The best way to get on lighter gear for the everyday sailor is to lose some kegs. Smaller boards, rigs etc, less loads etc... everything gets lighter/heavier as a ratio of F=ma. Newton developed this to work out what to use when he got to the beach, so should we.
Unless you're a speed sailor chasing knots. Or sail on Stars, then you need leverage so eat them pies.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..I find us box is great. What don't you like about it. I guess nuss boxes fill both use cases. so maybe nuss is the tech jump forward.
It's so fiddly with getting that nut in, then that tiny screw...
Also can't move the fin all the way to the front (not all boxes compensate for the bit that sticks out).
Agree on stripping slot box screw holes, that's annoying indeed.
Select to expand quoteptsf1111 said..Gestalt said..I find us box is great. What don't you like about it. I guess nuss boxes fill both use cases. so maybe nuss is the tech jump forward.
It's so fiddly with getting that nut in, then that tiny screw...
Also can't move the fin all the way to the front (not all boxes compensate for the bit that sticks out).
Agree on stripping slot box screw holes, that's annoying indeed.
Reading your comments I started thinking it would be great for main fins to use fcs2 rollers like on longboards. Just snap into place. Most surfboard center fins are a little too thick for windsurfing and the leading edges are fatter so more draggy on purpose.. might see if I can find some fcs2 type centre fins with nicer foils and try them.
Ben and Paul (and Julian) were briefly talking about exactly that on the latest Windsurfing TV podcast (later on, discussion about gear innovation).
I don't think any of that is strong enough. People who surf and kite waves are often damaging boxes in the latter simply due to large side loading. so they are not great for long term windsurf use. the lighter lighter lighter thing is great if it's just as strong. Surf inserts are not. Skimping on pvc blocks and stuff to save weight is folly
back to the light boards thing though-
if well made 6kg boards heel dent after a couple of seasons and mast tracks sink etc you can't tell me a 4kg wave board is a long term proposition. I'd like to see one at Corro for a season.
Yeah, wouldn't trust a surf box or fin for windsurfing.
Can't speak for 4kg boards, but I have multiple boards in the 6kg range. JP Radical Thruster Quads from 2016 and 2018 (6.0 and 6.2kg) and JP FSW from 2017 (6.3kg) that I've been using a lot with no issues whatsoever. I have never looked under the pads, but I don't suspect there's any heel dent and the mast tracks are fine. Again, I'm a lightweight.
Interestingly enough, I also use a Tabou 3S CED from 2015 which is 6.7kg but feels much lighter than that on the water. That thing is as strong as it gets.
Would a 4 kg board perform any better than a 6 kg board? I mean 6kg is pretty light. Would a 0 kg board perform better still? What about a negative weight board if possible? Can too light be a bad thing? How far could you go before needing some weight? The guys surfing those huge waves like weight in their boards.
Side note you're lucky with that 3S. I just repaired two Rocket CED and they're eggshells
I've also got a few 6.2-6.3 kg boards that are very used and don't have any issues other than foot strap plugs rusting up. One board is 2012 era and has been used so much the grip coat is almost gone.
imax, lighter boards plane earlier, are more nimble, more fun to jump and are way more lively.
not sure what the issue is with surf boxes for front fins.. mark stone been using them for years. I've got multiple boards that use them. Maybe we need to be more specific about which boxes because futures boxes are very hard to damage unless you are on the rocks. I'd seriously doubt if installed correctly they will break out. However please if you've had a different experience speak up..
I'm also fairly sure jaeger uses custom surf fins in his boards made by his dad.
there is currently a 2 for 1 deal on some fcs2 longboards fins so I grabbed a pair to test out. I currently use surfboard fins as well as windsurfing fins in my shortboards and certain surfboard fins are excellent and bucket loads cheaper than mfc etc.
Select to expand quoteImax1 said..
Would a 4 kg board perform any better than a 6 kg board? I mean 6kg is pretty light. Would a 0 kg board perform better still? What about a negative weight board if possible? Can too light be a bad thing? How far could you go before needing some weight? The guys surfing those huge waves like weight in their boards.
Let's turn this the other way. you can have this 6kg board or the one beside it that's the same shape but 8kg. I know which one I'm picking.
or this 4kg board or this 8 kg board..
If you put it like that, yes. But it's rarely the only factor. I don't think pushing for less weight is necessarily the way to go if it comes with comprises. Guess my takeaway is that the light boards we've seen in the past 10 years or so can be strong and last, so heavier is something I'd stay away from.
Re 3S, interesting. To be fair I only use it in lighter conditions although I do jump it.
Completely agree. Like everyone on the forum if I went and spent 4K on a board only to snap, crease, delam in 2 years I'd be pissed too. But that shouldn't prevent brands from trying to innovate.
bring on 4kg boards, tool less fins, stiffer and lighter booms, lighter masts and lighter sail cloth and all of it stronger enough to do the job.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
I've also got a few 6.2-6.3 kg boards that are very used and don't have any issues other than foot strap plugs rusting up. One board is 2012 era and has been used so much the grip coat is almost gone.
imax, lighter boards plane earlier, are more nimble, more fun to jump and are way more lively.
not sure what the issue is with surf boxes for front fins.. mark stone been using them for years. I've got multiple boards that use them. Maybe we need to be more specific about which boxes because futures boxes are very hard to damage unless you are on the rocks. I'd seriously doubt if installed correctly they will break out. However please if you've had a different experience speak up..
I'm also fairly sure jaeger uses custom surf fins in his boards made by his dad.
there is currently a 2 for 1 deal on some fcs2 longboards fins so I grabbed a pair to test out. I currently use surfboard fins as well as windsurfing fins in my shortboards and certain surfboard fins are excellent and bucket loads cheaper than mfc etc.
Do they plane significantly earlier? With say 85kg of sailor and 8kg of rig, losing 2kg off the board reduces the total weight by 2%. I've never seen any evidence that any type of small sailing craft goes noticeably better when racing with 2kg difference unless one is at Olympic level and even then it's probably all but impossible to notice. In one design fleets the gap between sailors of different skill but similar weight can often be a leg or so just because of the skill level, so how can one isolate how much of that huge difference is down to a couple of kg of all-up weight? The best 88kg sailors are closer to the best 68kg sailors than either of them is to the average sailor of any weight, so skill is so much more important than weight that the effect of a couple of kg is submerged in other factors.
Sure, you could feel the different weight when you're throwing one around, but losing 2kg off the sailor would probably be more effective in more ways than one.
It doesn't work like that though. Fat = fast as they say in slalom windsurfing. Apart from early planing, you want to have more weight for speed.
As pointed out about, the small 2% overall difference in weight doesn't do much. However, it's a 30% lighter board and surely that feels like a massive difference on the water. That alone might allow a good sailor to get more out of the board or get planing earlier, not sure. In wave sailing, it's a no brainer.
Lighter is definitely greater. Durability is almost always lower, but at least you had some nimble, reactive good times with it.
Relating from custom built standard constructions & custom built "beefed up" constructions for the same model...the standard just sails better, with a bit of flex, damping & of course lighter unsprung weight underfoot.
