Gestalt said..

I'd also like to see wave boards ditch the fancy boxes and go back to future boxes for the front fins and us box for the rear. consistent across the industry. That allows surfboard fins and windsurfing fins to cross pollinate.

Please no! I think US box is an awful system and slot box works much better. Without derailing this thread, surfing fins might not be suitable/strong enough for windsurfing anyway.

bradsblah said..

Gestalt said..
Is it really just a waist harness converted to a seat harness or something different..

Try it out.

I've often wondered if leg loops from a climbing harness might do the job?





I like the hook height of a waist harness, but it does ride up. If I have it so tight that it doesn't ride up, then I feel like it affects my breathing a bit.

Gear has progressively become lighter over the decades, kudos to the profession. The best way to get on lighter gear for the everyday sailor is to lose some kegs. Smaller boards, rigs etc, less loads etc... everything gets lighter/heavier as a ratio of F=ma. Newton developed this to work out what to use when he got to the beach, so should we.

Unless you're a speed sailor chasing knots. Or sail on Stars, then you need leverage so eat them pies.

ptsf1111 said..

Gestalt said..I find us box is great. What don't you like about it. I guess nuss boxes fill both use cases. so maybe nuss is the tech jump forward.

It's so fiddly with getting that nut in, then that tiny screw...

Also can't move the fin all the way to the front (not all boxes compensate for the bit that sticks out).

Agree on stripping slot box screw holes, that's annoying indeed.

Reading your comments I started thinking it would be great for main fins to use fcs2 rollers like on longboards. Just snap into place. Most surfboard center fins are a little too thick for windsurfing and the leading edges are fatter so more draggy on purpose.. might see if I can find some fcs2 type centre fins with nicer foils and try them.

I don't think any of that is strong enough. People who surf and kite waves are often damaging boxes in the latter simply due to large side loading. so they are not great for long term windsurf use. the lighter lighter lighter thing is great if it's just as strong. Surf inserts are not. Skimping on pvc blocks and stuff to save weight is folly
back to the light boards thing though-
if well made 6kg boards heel dent after a couple of seasons and mast tracks sink etc you can't tell me a 4kg wave board is a long term proposition. I'd like to see one at Corro for a season.

Would a 4 kg board perform any better than a 6 kg board? I mean 6kg is pretty light. Would a 0 kg board perform better still? What about a negative weight board if possible? Can too light be a bad thing? How far could you go before needing some weight? The guys surfing those huge waves like weight in their boards.

I've also got a few 6.2-6.3 kg boards that are very used and don't have any issues other than foot strap plugs rusting up. One board is 2012 era and has been used so much the grip coat is almost gone.

imax, lighter boards plane earlier, are more nimble, more fun to jump and are way more lively.

not sure what the issue is with surf boxes for front fins.. mark stone been using them for years. I've got multiple boards that use them. Maybe we need to be more specific about which boxes because futures boxes are very hard to damage unless you are on the rocks. I'd seriously doubt if installed correctly they will break out. However please if you've had a different experience speak up..
I'm also fairly sure jaeger uses custom surf fins in his boards made by his dad.

there is currently a 2 for 1 deal on some fcs2 longboards fins so I grabbed a pair to test out. I currently use surfboard fins as well as windsurfing fins in my shortboards and certain surfboard fins are excellent and bucket loads cheaper than mfc etc.

If you put it like that, yes. But it's rarely the only factor. I don't think pushing for less weight is necessarily the way to go if it comes with comprises. Guess my takeaway is that the light boards we've seen in the past 10 years or so can be strong and last, so heavier is something I'd stay away from.



Re 3S, interesting. To be fair I only use it in lighter conditions although I do jump it.

Gestalt said..
I've also got a few 6.2-6.3 kg boards that are very used and don't have any issues other than foot strap plugs rusting up. One board is 2012 era and has been used so much the grip coat is almost gone.

imax, lighter boards plane earlier, are more nimble, more fun to jump and are way more lively.

not sure what the issue is with surf boxes for front fins.. mark stone been using them for years. I've got multiple boards that use them. Maybe we need to be more specific about which boxes because futures boxes are very hard to damage unless you are on the rocks. I'd seriously doubt if installed correctly they will break out. However please if you've had a different experience speak up..
I'm also fairly sure jaeger uses custom surf fins in his boards made by his dad.

there is currently a 2 for 1 deal on some fcs2 longboards fins so I grabbed a pair to test out. I currently use surfboard fins as well as windsurfing fins in my shortboards and certain surfboard fins are excellent and bucket loads cheaper than mfc etc.

Do they plane significantly earlier? With say 85kg of sailor and 8kg of rig, losing 2kg off the board reduces the total weight by 2%. I've never seen any evidence that any type of small sailing craft goes noticeably better when racing with 2kg difference unless one is at Olympic level and even then it's probably all but impossible to notice. In one design fleets the gap between sailors of different skill but similar weight can often be a leg or so just because of the skill level, so how can one isolate how much of that huge difference is down to a couple of kg of all-up weight? The best 88kg sailors are closer to the best 68kg sailors than either of them is to the average sailor of any weight, so skill is so much more important than weight that the effect of a couple of kg is submerged in other factors.

Sure, you could feel the different weight when you're throwing one around, but losing 2kg off the sailor would probably be more effective in more ways than one.

It doesn't work like that though. Fat = fast as they say in slalom windsurfing. Apart from early planing, you want to have more weight for speed.



As pointed out about, the small 2% overall difference in weight doesn't do much. However, it's a 30% lighter board and surely that feels like a massive difference on the water. That alone might allow a good sailor to get more out of the board or get planing earlier, not sure. In wave sailing, it's a no brainer.

I have quick look to TW facebook. I see nothing new but a classic sandwich skin tech build well done. So for this lighter weight need to use lighter foam and lighter fiber so can only expect lighter strengh. But it can be enough for sure. Lighter grade carbon is really expansive.

Not sure this thread is about producing gear that doesn't last. It's about leveraging technology to produce lighter gear or beyond that making all gear better through innovation whether that be sail cloth, board weights, fittings and finishes etc.. if people just assume it's not -possible it will never happen.

lemat said..
I have quick look to TW facebook. I see nothing new but a classic sandwich skin tech build well done. So for this lighter weight need to use lighter foam and lighter fiber so can only expect lighter strengh. But it can be enough for sure. Lighter grade carbon is really expansive.

More that he's giving it a go.. building lighter boards however it's achieved.. testing them tweaking them, going again etc.. there is only one way to find out..

FormulaNova said..

Gestalt said..

ptsf1111 said..
It doesn't work like that though. Fat = fast as they say in slalom windsurfing. Apart from early planing, you want to have more weight for speed.



As pointed out about, the small 2% overall difference in weight doesn't do much. However, it's a 30% lighter board and surely that feels like a massive difference on the water. That alone might allow a good sailor to get more out of the board or get planing earlier, not sure. In wave sailing, it's a no brainer.

I don't think it's that straight forward.. 2kg on a board means less volume, more drag etc.. depending on where it's added makes a big difference. adding 2kg to a sailor not so much because we are using leverage against the rig.

here is a test. grab a 2kg dumbell or sand bag and strap it to your board and go for a sail. Bet you notice it.

whilst I have no empirical data on this many years ago when I was course racing we used the idea that 1kg of weight was equivalent to 3kg when including drag etc. I'd love it if there are any naval architects out there that have actual data around this.

I have done repairs to some of my boards where I have added significant weight. They have been stronger as a result, but the only time I have ever noticed the difference is when picking up someone else's new board and then my own.

2kgs over the surface area of a board is almost nothing. Then add the sailors weight and the force it creates over that same area and the 2kg is barely noticeable.

I doubt anyone will ever bother as the potential warranty returns versus any premium you charge would make it difficult to justify.
How much of a premium would customers pay? Twice the regular construction price? What would they then pay if their boards lasted only 1 season or put on 2kgs when a repairer needed to replace a finbox?

I wonder how this would all factor into the flex of a board as well? I don't like carbon boards as I feel they are too stiff. Would a super light construction make the board unable to flex?

Flex is interesting.. I used to agree about stiff boards. But now I think the design of the bottom can counteract that. Martin Love it was that directed me towards more v up front. I have to say.. it works.. depends on the use too.. I like more flex in wave boards especially when you can feel the tail flex out of a turn.. kinda means surfboard construction to some extent which is not great for jumping. some manufacturers use a 30/30 or 45/45 carbon arrangement to control flex.

a lot of weight can be saved in board construction by limiting the amount of fabric, using the correct fillers and minimising the amount of epoxy which ties back into limiting the amount of glass. Using lighter fittings.

boards that keep delaminating and breaking. what's the common theme.. Bog, layers not wet out. Could it be the construction techniques.

Gestalt said..

ptsf1111 said..
It doesn't work like that though. Fat = fast as they say in slalom windsurfing. Apart from early planing, you want to have more weight for speed.



As pointed out about, the small 2% overall difference in weight doesn't do much. However, it's a 30% lighter board and surely that feels like a massive difference on the water. That alone might allow a good sailor to get more out of the board or get planing earlier, not sure. In wave sailing, it's a no brainer.

I don't think it's that straight forward.. 2kg on a board means less volume, more drag etc.. depending on where it's added makes a big difference. adding 2kg to a sailor not so much because we are using leverage against the rig.

here is a test. grab a 2kg dumbell or sand bag and strap it to your board and go for a sail. Bet you notice it.

whilst I have no empirical data on this many years ago when I was course racing we used the idea that 1kg of weight was equivalent to 3kg when including drag etc. I'd love it if there are any naval architects out there that have actual data around this.

Yes, the sailor can notice extra weight, but that doesn't mean that the water can "feel" the extra weight to an extent that is really noticeable because the water doesn't give a stuff whether the weight is in the sailor or the board. To use an analogy, people can certainly feel a bicycle that weighs 2kg more, but the physics show that that a 2kg heavier bike is only about .16 km/h slower at about 35kmh. So feeling the weight doesn't mean you can feel the speed loss..

As noted earlier, if pure weight was so vital, in marginal winds just about all the lightweights would beat all the heavier sailors in one design racing, but that simply doesn't happen. If you like the feel of a lightweight board then that's a great reason to get ?ne, and sure they are easier to flick around.. But for the typical sailor (and I'm not saying you're him) the actual speed advantage would be likely to be nothing noticeable IMHO.

I've sailed in one design yachts against an America's Cup naval architect and skipper. Our boat was about 2% heavier than his. We were first, he was ninth or tenth...