cammd said..
you could hardly call sailing upwind or going fast in 8-14knts a profound new experience to the sport. formula has been going fast in 8-14 for 20 years and centreboard classes have been going upwind since the beginning.

Effortlessly flying upwind at 15 knots over 1 to 1.5m swells, in 15 knots of wind at the angle below with a 4.5m wave sail, is new I reckon

SSW 15 knots

RichardG said..



Speed is relative to other vessels of the same or identical class. On the other hand foiling Moths, which will beat Windsurf foils around a course as I have seen, will reach 14 knots upwind and 20 knots downwind in just ten knots of wind, and in 20 knots of breeze they'll be cranking along at 17 knots upwind and 25-30 knots down.

Not so at Engadinwind, the foilers were beating the Moths in the marathon.
watch a foil passing a moth upwind at 4:08:08
at 3:31:14 watch the foilers and LTs (bonus, a foiler ventilates and eats it)

Paducah said..

RichardG said..



Speed is relative to other vessels of the same or identical class. On the other hand foiling Moths, which will beat Windsurf foils around a course as I have seen, will reach 14 knots upwind and 20 knots downwind in just ten knots of wind, and in 20 knots of breeze they'll be cranking along at 17 knots upwind and 25-30 knots down.

Not so at Engadinwind, the foilers were beating the Moths in the marathon.
watch a foil passing a moth upwind at 4:08:08
at 3:31:14 watch the foilers and LTs (bonus, a foiler ventilates and eats it)

Good stuff, and I'd like to get into windfoiling, but that Moth sailor is very much a mid pack racer at championships, up against an ex Olympic pro windfoiler. If you watch a Moth championships you'll see that the ex Olympic pro Mothies would go past that Moth just about as quickly as the windfoiler does.

Also, look at 3:47 and there's a kitefoiler absolutely slaughtering what seems to be the top windfoiler. There were 10 kitefoilers, and they took the top 8 places overall. So if faster = better (and if not, what does it matter if the windfoiler went past the Moth or LT?) then a kitefoiler is better than a windfoiler. (Oh, and if beating something at Engadinwind is proof of superiority, then we can say that the top LTs beat all the slalom boards so therefore LTs are better than slalom ;-) ).

Personally I don't care what's faster as long as it's whatever is fun to whoever is sailing it, and they are not arrogant enough to say that what they personally prefer is better. As someone who sails lots of different stuff, some fast and some slow, it's funny to see that being "the fastest" is important only when the stuff a particularl sailor happens to like is "the fastest". As soon as something faster comes along, the same people who said "my kit is the fastest stuff afloat and therefore the best" will often suddenly switch to saying "It's not all about speed, you know". It's happened with the Raceboarders, the speed windsurfers, the 18 Foot Skiff sailors, the International Canoe sailors, the Tornado and A Class cat sailors, the Mothies, and probably the course slalom and FW guys. It's just human nature, but it's also silly.

Maddlad said..
What LT guys don't seem to understand, is that speed does matter to a lot of people. Speed gives people an adrenaline rush, that sensation that makes them want to go down to the water, get out their gear and go for a blast.
Some people may like to sit around and play chess, if that's your thing, then sail an LT, but others like to watch motor racing or skateboard or do things that give them a physical speed rush to get them through the next week at work. They prefer to do free ride, or in more extreme cases race slalom and now foils because it gives you that sensation you can't get from standing still. If you like going slow, then good on you, but there's a lot of us who like to go fast, and you'll have trouble convincing those people to sail an LT. We all know this, so I don't know why we are still banging on about it in this thread.

I understand your frustration with some posts, but NO ONE has said that speed doesn't matter to a lot of people or that they shouldn't sail foils. That does not mean that speed matters to ALL people, or that it should, or that either type of person or gear is better than the other type.

Even speed sensations come in different forms. I get bored ****less sailing a slalom board at 30+ knots in flat water and steady winds. I just don't get any worthwhile sensation from it. Hook in, sheet in, and nod off and snore........Other people love it and that's great but the point is that different people have different ways to get a physical rush.

And it's a bit odd to say "is foiling the best thing ever" and then to complain when people say "no". If you don't want answers, don't ask the question. If the original poster didn't want feedback then he should have called the thread "foiling is the best thing ever - no further correspondence will be entered into" instead of asking a question and then getting pissed off because people answered it.

To state it once again, I don't think that any form of windsurfing can be "the best" since it gets down to personal taste. Yes, windfoiling is "the best thing ever" for you and the OP and others - fantastic! But it's not the best thing ever for everyone.

By the way, you haven't addressed the issue that if speed does matter then why isn't kitefoiling better?

Chris 249 said..

I get bored ****less sailing a slalom board at 30+ knots in flat water and steady winds. I just don't get any worthwhile sensation from it. Hook in, sheet in, and nod off and snore.......

You've got nerves of steel.

Nope, no one has said you suck. The point is that some people seem to be saying "we do 15 knots in 10 knots of wind and therefore it's better than boards that do 8 knots in 10 knots of wind" and if that's your criteria then other forms of sailing are just as good or better. What we're trying to say is that speed is not the be all and end all for everyone. If it was, we'd all be kiting. So if speed in light winds is not the ultimate measure then windfoiling is not "the best thing" because it's faster in light winds; it's a great thing and may be the best thing for lots of people, but it's not "the best".

We're not trying to say that windfoiling isn't great, but some of us are trying to say that other forms of the sport are not inferior. I dunno how you can believe that it's fine for some people to say "windfoiling is better" and bad for others to say "hey, all forms of the sport are great and none of them are better than the other".

Again, if windfoilers don't want people to answer a question then they shouldn't ask a question; they should just say "windfoiling is the best and no one is allowed to say it's not".

tbwonder said..

Chris 249 said..

And it's a bit odd to say "is foiling the best thing ever" and then to complain when people say "no". If you don't want answers, don't ask the question. If the original poster didn't want feedback then he should have called the thread "foiling is the best thing ever - no further correspondence will be entered into" instead of asking a question and then getting pissed off because people answered it.

As the original poster, I would just like to explain that the post was intended to create some robust discussion which I believe it has. I have enjoyed reading everybody's opinion. Not sure which of my posts you are referring to when you suggest that "I am pissed off".
I couldn't be happier.

Sorry, I should have said that OTHER people have become pissed off with some of the answers. My apologies to you.

Belly25 said..1. Kite foiling is a completely different sport, they can't be compared, just as other foiling craft can't be compared to Windfoiling.
2. Once again you have posted on this thread with unrelated content to the heading
3. You now have a thread on which you can tell everyone (that wants to listen) how good the LT is, please use it
4. Some people read the Seabreeze forums as a way of feeling a part of something, to enjoy the stoke so to speak (to which I hope I belong). Some people it would appear use it with an agenda, open mouths but closed ears. Chris, if you love the LT (or whatever you sail), I am very happy for you, may you have constant wind everyday for the rest of your life, enjoy. BUT please no more LT comparisons, promotions, references etc on unrelated threads, it sucks having to sift through completely irrelevant content to actually find interesting points relating to thread headings.

Chris 249 said..

Paducah said..

RichardG said..



Speed is relative to other vessels of the same or identical class. On the other hand foiling Moths, which will beat Windsurf foils around a course as I have seen, will reach 14 knots upwind and 20 knots downwind in just ten knots of wind, and in 20 knots of breeze they'll be cranking along at 17 knots upwind and 25-30 knots down.

Not so at Engadinwind, the foilers were beating the Moths in the marathon.
watch a foil passing a moth upwind at 4:08:08
at 3:31:14 watch the foilers and LTs (bonus, a foiler ventilates and eats it)

Also, look at 3:47 and there's a kitefoiler absolutely slaughtering what seems to be the top windfoiler. There were 10 kitefoilers, and they took the top 8 places overall. So if faster = better (and if not, what does it matter if the windfoiler went past the Moth or LT?) then a kitefoiler is better than a windfoiler.

1. Kite foiling is a completely different sport, they can't be compared, just as other foiling craft can't be compared to Windfoiling.
2. Once again you have posted on this thread with unrelated content to the heading
3. You now have a thread on which you can tell everyone (that wants to listen) how good the LT is, please use it
4. Some people read the Seabreeze forums as a way of feeling a part of something, to enjoy the stoke so to speak (to which I hope I belong). Some people it would appear use it with an agenda, open mouths but closed ears. Chris, if you love the LT (or whatever you sail), I am very happy for you, may you have constant wind everyday for the rest of your life, enjoy. BUT please no more LT comparisons, promotions, references etc on unrelated threads, it sucks having to sift through completely irrelevant content to actually find interesting points relating to thread headings.

Belly25 I think you need to stop trying to stifle debate. If you don't like comparisons and relativity restrict your posts to the foiling section. Windsurfer includes a lot of craft and even the layperson considers kitesurfing as windsurfing, especially in the media. The ambit of the thread is rather broad and invites comparisons and debate. Your inability to comprehend this and apparently to cope with that is astounding.

Belly25 said..

Chris 249 said..

Paducah said..

RichardG said..



Speed is relative to other vessels of the same or identical class. On the other hand foiling Moths, which will beat Windsurf foils around a course as I have seen, will reach 14 knots upwind and 20 knots downwind in just ten knots of wind, and in 20 knots of breeze they'll be cranking along at 17 knots upwind and 25-30 knots down.

Not so at Engadinwind, the foilers were beating the Moths in the marathon.
watch a foil passing a moth upwind at 4:08:08
at 3:31:14 watch the foilers and LTs (bonus, a foiler ventilates and eats it)

Also, look at 3:47 and there's a kitefoiler absolutely slaughtering what seems to be the top windfoiler. There were 10 kitefoilers, and they took the top 8 places overall. So if faster = better (and if not, what does it matter if the windfoiler went past the Moth or LT?) then a kitefoiler is better than a windfoiler.

1. Kite foiling is a completely different sport, they can't be compared, just as other foiling craft can't be compared to Windfoiling.
2. Once again you have posted on this thread with unrelated content to the heading
3. You now have a thread on which you can tell everyone (that wants to listen) how good the LT is, please use it
4. Some people read the Seabreeze forums as a way of feeling a part of something, to enjoy the stoke so to speak (to which I hope I belong). Some people it would appear use it with an agenda, open mouths but closed ears. Chris, if you love the LT (or whatever you sail), I am very happy for you, may you have constant wind everyday for the rest of your life, enjoy. BUT please no more LT comparisons, promotions, references etc on unrelated threads, it sucks having to sift through completely irrelevant content to actually find interesting points relating to thread headings.

WTF? Of course the content is completely and utterly related to the heading. The content I posted is why foiling is not the best for everyone, and that is directly on the point. Sure, it's the best for some people, and I said that time and time again.

I referred to the LT just once in the last few posts, in reply to a foiler who was basically saying they are slow. I also mentioned cats, foiling Moths, Lasers and slalom boards. It is just rubbish to claim that's promoting the LT. The LT is crap for a lot of people and I would never deny that.

It's also just complete and utter bull**** to say that I'm trying to destroy the stoke for windfoiling. I've said;

Windfoiling is "Good stuff, and I'd like to get into windfoiling"
windfoiling is "it's a great thing and may be the best thing for lots of people"
"We're not trying to say that windfoiling isn't great"
"NO ONE has said that speed doesn't matter to a lot of people or that they shouldn't sail foils."
"windfoiling is "the best thing ever" for you and the OP and others - fantastic!"

That's very positive about windfoiling. To claim I'm "destroying the stoke" by saying that windfoiling is "a great thing" and "the best thing ever" for some people and it's "fantastic" if it's the best for some people is a complete and utter lie.

As I've said about a million times here, all types of our sport are fantastic. You are the one who slings **** at other types, not me. Oh, by the way on the new LT thread someone started saying that RBs are better. I replied to that poster using facts and respect. I also said, as I have said over and over and over again here, that any part of our sport that someone loves is good. Pity others can't do the same.

powersloshin said..
i am curious to learn if people that have taken up foiling seriously start accumulating different foils, boards and sails like windsurfers or generally can stick to one setup

Everybody I know sticks with one foil. Evolution wise the big change last year was the spread of freeride foils (Slingshot and Moses) and in the area I sail there is a move from shortish masts to long ones because they work better in chop/swell. People are now on 90-105 masts with freeride foils, Slingshot comes with a 95 mast, and Moses has a 105. But people get rid of their shortest mast once they start to use the long one ... no accumulation of stuff. You could get two front wings, one for light air and one for heavy.

So no, it does not seem that you need much to cover 8 to 20 knots plus. The field is evolving fast but also settling in. You have race/freerace foils on one hand and freeride/freestyle on the other. But in both cases one mast, one fuselage, two front wings and the stabilizer cover a huge range of conditions.

powersloshin said..
i am curious to learn if people that have taken up foiling seriously start accumulating different foils, boards and sails like windsurfers or generally can stick to one setup

That depends on the range of conditions you are trying to cover and the type of foiling you want to do. If you are a race foiler or aspiring one then the people I know doing that are basically one board, one foil with two wings and perhaps two sails.

I live in a relatively windy place (other than the shoulder seasons) and I don't want to race. I've owned one foil since early 2018 and bought the newer wing for it because there is a lot of hype about it being much better (not quite sure yet). I've used a few different boards, all were under $300 and not foil specific. None of my sails are specific to foiling.
I may get a different foil simply to use on a board with a powerbox, with the goal of further reducing my equipment needs.

Without foiling I'd need at least one more board, one more boom, two large masts and two large sails to cover the same conditions. Plus I'd need to find a way to pack it all on/in my Subaru wagon, without it getting stolen off the top. The foil fits behind the seat.

Of the 9 course race foilers who rig near me, minimum of 3 sails in the car, as many as 6. Still does NOT cover breeze below 10 average NOR +27 gusts.

I must say I've seen quite a few guys who I would describe as "lapsed" windsurfers who have returned to the sport with "born again" type of fervour after experiencing foiling. The uptake of foils in my area would probably be around 50% of regular sailors at least. I can't imagine any previous change/innovation that has had as big an impact. It's gotta be good for our sport as a whole, irrespective of specific preference?

Hope springs eternal.
Fatso at 155 lbs., on Naish setup and 6.6 sail, great pumper, still need steady 11 or gust of 13 to get flying. Thru lulls of 6-7.
I often switch back and forth, same wind and same session, between foiling way powered to fun powered Isonic 111.

azymuth said..
Yeah, I've invested a lot of time, but it's been a joy. It's another advantage of foiling, 10-35 knots, always up on the foil, gusts and lulls. Never had a bad session.
Imagine if you were always continuously planing every session on a slalom or wave board

...I would be so much more tired.

I can easily use half as much energy foiling compaired to windsurfing allowing me to stay out MUCH longer, giving me more TOW TOF and making me MUCH better.
I know a lot of windsurfers like the feeling of slapping on the water and having the same feeling there used to(I did too).

I find it funny that we keep on saying that LT sailors are old but in freeride foiling it can be very easy on the old joints flying above the water and 100x more fun.
While still getting the same feeling of riding a wave board but more free and efficient. Sure learning can be challenging for the first few sessions, maybe that's what turns some people off from foiling?