Select to expand quoteforceten said..
My windsurf mates that are in my circle We have 33% who also kite. None have yet to try foiling, one talks about it. Some at the local spot do foil, maybe older has something to do with this, old dog new tricks, or age and knowledge .
i think foiling May be a windsurf variation, but it's more a offshoot than variation. Snowboard vs skis
More variation. Snowboard vs ski is a significantly different technique. Foil is like going from long to short board. Sail mechanics are the same. Board mechanics are a bit different in that you have to deal with up/down and front/back. But once that becomes innate, it feels like being on a 100l freeride board in terms of footsteering, turning, etc. That's a big part of the appeal - that freeride feeling in 10 knots.
At my spot, most of the older dogs have or are learning the new trick. It's gotten a lot of dogs off the porch, too. 
Well put. For me off the Porch is windsup
technique aside, on the snow is on the snow. Maybe even a kids saucer.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..forceten said..
My windsurf mates that are in my circle We have 33% who also kite. None have yet to try foiling, one talks about it. Some at the local spot do foil, maybe older has something to do with this, old dog new tricks, or age and knowledge .
i think foiling May be a windsurf variation, but it's more a offshoot than variation. Snowboard vs skis
More variation. Snowboard vs ski is a significantly different technique. Foil is like going from long to short board. Sail mechanics are the same. Board mechanics are a bit different in that you have to deal with up/down and front/back. But once that becomes innate, it feels like being on a 100l freeride board in terms of footsteering, turning, etc. That's a big part of the appeal - that freeride feeling in 10 knots.
At my spot, most of the older dogs have or are learning the new trick. It's gotten a lot of dogs off the porch, too.
For me foiling feels like being on a wave, the sail is so light and turns can be carved without losing energy. It can turn hard, but still crank upwind like a formula or longboard the moment you are up on the foil. Not like being underpowered on a shortboard where you are constantly working to windward just to keep from walking back.
I think if you're rich and live where there is flat water deep enough, go for it.
For me the only flat water i sail in isn't deep enough so i bought a Raceboard, and i can sail back as long as the wind has a direction and there are ripples on the water, i personally think the new Windsurfer LT is a better option than a foil.
But i wouldn't say no to having a go if someone offered.
Select to expand quoteP.C_simpson said..
I think if you're rich and live where there is flat water deep enough, go for it.
For me the only flat water i sail in isn't deep enough so i bought a Raceboard, and i can sail back as long as the wind has a direction and there are ripples on the water, i personally think the new Windsurfer LT is a better option than a foil.
But i wouldn't say no to having a go if someone offered.
thats my take too. there's so many light wind options.
for some the foil is just a solution to a problem we dont have.
i have no doubt foiling is awesome. but i doubt its the best thing to happen.
there are a few standouts.
the Lt, foils, multi use boards and tow windsurfing are all pretty good things for light wind.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
turns can be carved without losing energy.
Decades of striving to perfect energy conservation gone to waste! Turning a slapper requires more attention to fore and aft trim than turning a foil board. (Not that I can do it yet, I'm in theory mode). If trim is too far rearward or forward for a fraction of a second at any of a dozen stages during a slapper gybe, that's 2 to 3 knots lost never to be regained. It all adds up, you exit at a dribble wondering where exactly you went wrong.
Trim too far back on a foil, you rise, converting kinetic energy to potential energy, realising your mistake you trim forward and get it all back again. Too easy
Select to expand quoteIan K said..
Turning a slapper requires more attention to fore and aft trim than turning a foil board. (Not that I can do it yet, I'm in theory mode). If trim is too far rearward or forward for a fraction of a second at any of a dozen stages during a slapper gybe, that's 2 to 3 knots lost never to be regained.
On a foil, it's about 15-25 knots lost that are never regained.
With a foil, a planing jibe is a jibe you messed up.
Select to expand quoteP.C_simpson said..
I think if you're rich and live where there is flat water deep enough, go for it.
For me the only flat water i sail in isn't deep enough so i bought a Raceboard, and i can sail back as long as the wind has a direction and there are ripples on the water, i personally think the new Windsurfer LT is a better option than a foil.
But i wouldn't say no to having a go if someone offered.
You definitely need to try a foil
Select to expand quoteP.C_simpson said..
I think if you're rich and live where there is flat water deep enough, go for it.
For me the only flat water i sail in isn't deep enough so i bought a Raceboard, and i can sail back as long as the wind has a direction and there are ripples on the water, i personally think the new Windsurfer LT is a better option than a foil.
But i wouldn't say no to having a go if someone offered.
I don't think you need to be rich to purchase a used entry level foil. And some of these will attach to your existing windsurfing board.
If you want the latest carbon fire crackers that's maybe only for passionate foilers.
It's come down personal choices not money i feel
A foil is far cheaper than a bigger rig, LT, etc.
Especially with foils designed for powerbox boards of normal widths.
I think foiling has potential and is fun but so far sadly we have not seen the development of foil racing in sailing clubs in WA. That is a concern and like kite foiling racing seems to be a minority pursuing it. If you are into racing every week in course racing fleets LT is more accessible and popular and has the only one design fleet of size. Foiling is not cheaper than the LT nor is it always functional to foil in lightwinds in my opinion when you are better off on a raceboard or LT. There are so many windsurfing options outside foiling during a good seabreeze many like to go wavesailing when they can or go for a blast on the water.
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..
I think foiling has potential and is fun but so far sadly we have not seen the development of foil racing in sailing clubs in WA. That is a concern and like kite foiling racing seems to be a minority pursuing it. If you are into racing every week in course racing fleets LT is more accessible and popular and has the only one design fleet of size. Foiling is not cheaper than the LT nor is it always functional to foil in lightwinds in my opinion when you are better off on a raceboard or LT. There are so many windsurfing options outside foiling during a good seabreeze many like to go wavesailing when they can or go for a blast on the water.
Fair enough but many people would find sailing an LT in lightwind as boring as bat ****. Seriously you can buy an alloy foil fit it to an old board well for under the price of an LT
Select to expand quoteAUS 814 said..Fair enough but many people would find sailing an LT in lightwind as boring as bat ****. Seriously you can buy an alloy foil fit it to an old board well for under the price of an LTRichardG said..
I think foiling has potential and is fun but so far sadly we have not seen the development of foil racing in sailing clubs in WA. That is a concern and like kite foiling racing seems to be a minority pursuing it. If you are into racing every week in course racing fleets LT is more accessible and popular and has the only one design fleet of size. Foiling is not cheaper than the LT nor is it always functional to foil in lightwinds in my opinion when you are better off on a raceboard or LT. There are so many windsurfing options outside foiling during a good seabreeze many like to go wavesailing when they can or go for a blast on the water.
Fair enough but many people would find sailing an LT in lightwind as boring as bat ****. Seriously you can buy an alloy foil fit it to an old board well for under the price of an LT
Many prefer to race in competitive fleets than to muck around with agricultural alloy gear as you say. In one design classes speed is relative. Many people find the up and down of repetitive sailing, without racing, boring too and many people would rather kitefoil than windsurf too. That doesn't mean either is bad. Whatever floats your boat I guess. I just don't see foiling being the panacea of any sailing class yet. A case in point will be to compare fleet sizes at the Adelaide LT nationals coming up in Jan. to the foiling nationals in Qld. around the same time.
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..AUS 814 said..Fair enough but many people would find sailing an LT in lightwind as boring as bat ****. Seriously you can buy an alloy foil fit it to an old board well for under the price of an LTRichardG said..
I think foiling has potential and is fun but so far sadly we have not seen the development of foil racing in sailing clubs in WA. That is a concern and like kite foiling racing seems to be a minority pursuing it. If you are into racing every week in course racing fleets LT is more accessible and popular and has the only one design fleet of size. Foiling is not cheaper than the LT nor is it always functional to foil in lightwinds in my opinion when you are better off on a raceboard or LT. There are so many windsurfing options outside foiling during a good seabreeze many like to go wavesailing when they can or go for a blast on the water.
Fair enough but many people would find sailing an LT in lightwind as boring as bat ****. Seriously you can buy an alloy foil fit it to an old board well for under the price of an LT
Many prefer to race in competitive fleets than to muck around with alloy gear as you say. In one design classes speed is relative. Many people find the up and down of repetitive sailing, without racing, boring too and many people would rather kitefoil than windsurf too. That doesn't mean either is bad. Whatever floats your boat I guess. I just don't see foiling being the panacea of any sailing class yet. A case in point will be to compare fleet sizes at the Adelaide LT nationals coming up in Jan. to the foiling nationals in Qld. around the same time.
The Wazsp class seems to be going gang busters
Select to expand quoteAUS 814 said..The Wazsp class seems to be going gang bustersRichardG said..AUS 814 said..Fair enough but many people would find sailing an LT in lightwind as boring as bat ****. Seriously you can buy an alloy foil fit it to an old board well for under the price of an LTRichardG said..
I think foiling has potential and is fun but so far sadly we have not seen the development of foil racing in sailing clubs in WA. That is a concern and like kite foiling racing seems to be a minority pursuing it. If you are into racing every week in course racing fleets LT is more accessible and popular and has the only one design fleet of size. Foiling is not cheaper than the LT nor is it always functional to foil in lightwinds in my opinion when you are better off on a raceboard or LT. There are so many windsurfing options outside foiling during a good seabreeze many like to go wavesailing when they can or go for a blast on the water.
Fair enough but many people would find sailing an LT in lightwind as boring as bat ****. Seriously you can buy an alloy foil fit it to an old board well for under the price of an LT
Many prefer to race in competitive fleets than to muck around with alloy gear as you say. In one design classes speed is relative. Many people find the up and down of repetitive sailing, without racing, boring too and many people would rather kitefoil than windsurf too. That doesn't mean either is bad. Whatever floats your boat I guess. I just don't see foiling being the panacea of any sailing class yet. A case in point will be to compare fleet sizes at the Adelaide LT nationals coming up in Jan. to the foiling nationals in Qld. around the same time.
The Wazsp class seems to be going gang busters
Great, I haven't been following it. A one design class has appeal just as does the LT. Maybe windfoiling can develop a cheap affordable one design class for weekend racers. The foils on the Moth and WAZSP are much more advanced than foils on windsurfing gear or so I am told by Moth experts. Not sure if that matters just that perhaps windfoiling is still developing. Most sailors are getting back into windsurfing on the LT and enjoying it. Foiling seems to be attracting existing sailors whereas LT is attracting people who left the sport and keeping many in it who yearn for fleet racing. Both disciplines are great but I see greater numbers in LT on a given day or at a regatta when out racing. Participation is a good thing but the greater numbers in one mean something over the lesser in another.
Select to expand quoteAUS 814 said..
The wasp costs about $16000 AUS
Relatively cheap to a new foiling Moth.
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..AUS 814 said..
The wasp costs about $16000 AUS
Relatively cheap to a new foiling Moth.
The foiling moths are in a league of their own.l have never sailed one, & it takes a long time to master a craft like that.Windfoiling is relatively cheap compared to them.
Earlier this year Victoria hosted its WASPZ State Championships with a fleet of 27 boats in attendance, WA also held its WASPZ state championships with 17 boats so a strong nucleus of sailors form the core of the fleet. In LT WA first 2019 State Championship attracted 24 boards amazing for a board first made in 2018. LT is going gangbusters. Is windfoiling racing going gangbusters ? I hope it does as I like windfoiling. It needs a one design cheap and affordable class to grow and presently that is missing.
A fairer comparison would be to give it a year or to since the LT has been around for 3 years or so and the Olympic foil class has only been announced. You keep banging on about a cheap foiling one design class, it's never going to be super cheap because of the amount of carbon involved I'm making the foils. Yes you May have sold 300 plus LT,s but how many are actively racing ??, only got 22 or so for the SA states
Select to expand quoteAUS 814 said..
A fairer comparison would be to give it a year or to since the LT has been around for 3 years or so and the Olympic foil class has only been announced. You keep banging on about a cheap foiling one design class, it's never going to be super cheap because of the amount of carbon involved I'm making the foils. Yes you May have sold 300 plus LT,s but how many are actively racing ??, only got 22 or so for the SA states
22 for the SA LT states is good for the first LT states there, don't you think ? Incredible achievement. I hope foiling can achieve more or the same for the new iFoil in SA. Is it likely ? The LT was introduced in 2018 so its been around for just over one year. I think much more than 300 LTs have been sold I don't have the figures however but I was told Greg Johns is selling one LT every day. You seem to be very anti LT, I am not anti-foil just realistic. The IMCO in its heyday say 1989-2000 is the best guidance to fleet sizes for the iFoil in Australia, since both are or were Olympic. I suspect the LT numbers exceed that, as is usually the case for non-Olympic classes. We have gone from zero entrants to an LT windsurfing fleet in October 2018 to 11-14 sailors entering per week in weekly club racing every Sunday. We have about 30 maybe more LTs now in WA with about half racing every week with many several extra only sailing bigger events. We have several world champs, Americas Cup sailors and wave champs and ex PWA sailors in our fleet. Open foiling weekly club racing fleet sizes haven't taken off have they ? In SA ?
Is there any chance you guys can read this threads heading please. Like some of the other interesting threads this one has descended into a Foiling versus LT debate.
Please start your own thread if you want to keep that debate going.
Once again Andy, great thread and good to read so many interesting perspectives.
Select to expand quoteBelly25 said..
Is there any chance you guys can read this threads heading please. Like some of the other interesting threads this one has descended into a Foiling versus LT debate.
Please start your own thread if you want to keep that debate going.
Once again Andy, great thread and good to read so many interesting perspectives.
The title of this thread does not limit the debate over whether or not foiling has ruined windsurfing. In my opinion foiling has not ruined windsurfing but made it a richer experience as has the LT.
Select to expand quotePaducah said.
On a foil, it's about 15-25 knots lost that are never regained.
With a foil, a planing jibe is a jibe you messed up.
15 -25kts faster than this? We can't all be in your league, Antoine.
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..Belly25 said..
Is there any chance you guys can read this threads heading please. Like some of the other interesting threads this one has descended into a Foiling versus LT debate.
Please start your own thread if you want to keep that debate going.
Once again Andy, great thread and good to read so many interesting perspectives.
The title of this thread does not limit the debate over whether or not foiling has ruined windsurfing. In my opinion foiling has not ruined windsurfing but made it a richer experience as has the LT.
Then start your own thread asking if the LT has saved our sport or ruined it.
I may be wrong but I feel etiquette would dictate that you at least try and address the question stated in the thread title rather than banging on about how incredible the LT is. 9 references to the LT in your previous post comes across a bit heavy.
Not sure how the LT has made windsurfing a richer experience? It's a slightly re-imagined 40+ year old concept that is cheap and has attracted a lot of older windsurfers back to the sport. And fair play, that's great and more power to those who sail it but I dare say that a vast majority of people who foil have absolutely zero interest in sailing an LT. On the racing side of things, I personally race a windfoil because it's highly, technical in tuning terms, both foil and rig, requires a high degree of skill to be and the front of the fleet, is extremely fast and a large weight range can be competitive . A windfoil is very similar in speed to a moth, in some conditions they are faster, in some conditions we are faster, both are much faster than a wazp (which has alloy foils btw).
Still with racing, i'd also suggest that most people can jump on an LT and be semi competitive in racing terms. Yeah you're always going to have the outliers at the front but most could jump on and have some good racing. This doesn't necessarily apply to windfoiling but that's just the nature of high speed, highly technical classes...and maybe that puts some people off. Most of us in the Australian fleet thought we had it pretty sussed before the last Aus nationals....then the NZ'rs turned up and absolutely schooled us, it lifts everyone's game. Make no mistake though a casual free-racer who rocks up to the nationals etc will probably get lapped in a 20 min two lap race, the speed differential can be that high.
All that racing BS aside foil has just given a whole new avenue to the sport. I can foil from 6 kts, I come from a hardcore wave and freestyle background (both I still do) so previously I really only sailed if it was > 16kts. It's opened up a whole other world to those who weren't content to float around on raceboards/LT's etc when the wind didn't play the game. Foil in the waves, race foil, etc etc, lots of options, fairly cheap if you don't go down the racefoil path and buckets of fun. I would suggest that people who are so negative about it haven't actually ever tried it.
Select to expand quoteBelly25 said..Then start your own thread asking if the LT has saved our sport or ruined it.
I may be wrong but I feel etiquette would dictate that you at least try and address the question stated in the thread title rather than banging on about how incredible the LT is. 9 references to the LT in your previous post comes across a bit heavy.RichardG said..Belly25 said..
Is there any chance you guys can read this threads heading please. Like some of the other interesting threads this one has descended into a Foiling versus LT debate.
Please start your own thread if you want to keep that debate going.
Once again Andy, great thread and good to read so many interesting perspectives.
The title of this thread does not limit the debate over whether or not foiling has ruined windsurfing. In my opinion foiling has not ruined windsurfing but made it a richer experience as has the LT.
Then start your own thread asking if the LT has saved our sport or ruined it.
I may be wrong but I feel etiquette would dictate that you at least try and address the question stated in the thread title rather than banging on about how incredible the LT is. 9 references to the LT in your previous post comes across a bit heavy.
I guess I could start a thread to that effect but there is no compulsion to do so. I don't think anyone is compelled to post nor are they constrained in the way they answer or respond to a thread as long as it relates to and is relevant to the subject matter as was my original post. This is a general topic in the general section so I am surprised by the impassioned reply from others. Thanks.
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..Belly25 said..Then start your own thread asking if the LT has saved our sport or ruined it.
I may be wrong but I feel etiquette would dictate that you at least try and address the question stated in the thread title rather than banging on about how incredible the LT is. 9 references to the LT in your previous post comes across a bit heavy.RichardG said..Belly25 said..
Is there any chance you guys can read this threads heading please. Like some of the other interesting threads this one has descended into a Foiling versus LT debate.
Please start your own thread if you want to keep that debate going.
Once again Andy, great thread and good to read so many interesting perspectives.
The title of this thread does not limit the debate over whether or not foiling has ruined windsurfing. In my opinion foiling has not ruined windsurfing but made it a richer experience as has the LT.
Then start your own thread asking if the LT has saved our sport or ruined it.
I may be wrong but I feel etiquette would dictate that you at least try and address the question stated in the thread title rather than banging on about how incredible the LT is. 9 references to the LT in your previous post comes across a bit heavy.
I guess I could start a thread to that effect but there is no compulsion to do so. I don't think anyone is compelled to post nor are they constrained in the way they answer or respond to a thread as long as it relates to and is relevant to the subject matter as was my original post. This is a general topic in the general section so I am surprised by the impassioned reply from others. Thanks.
I give up
RichardG, The LT already has a 23 page thread in the general forum. RB or LT? Id choose the RB any day over LT.
FOILIN LOOKS A WHOLE DIFFERENT THING. Another avenue to explore. Dont see many here at GB though.
Select to expand quoteolskool said..
RichardG, The LT already has a 23 page thread in the general forum. RB or LT? Id choose the RB any day over LT.
FOILIN LOOKS A WHOLE DIFFERENT THING. Another avenue to explore. Dont see many here at GB though.
I don't think foiling has ruined windsurfing. I have, among other windsurfing craft, two raceboards, a foiling set up and an unspeakable board the latter of which is the only "raceboard" in WA with active weekly club racing fleets. All are great and I don't disagree. I think foiling is still rising and I agree its different. I just don't see it as being the best thing yet but it is certainly a great development.
