CJW said..

On the racing side of things, I personally race a windfoil because it's highly, technical in tuning terms, both foil and rig, requires a high degree of skill to be and the front of the fleet,

Foils are great, but there's no type of sailing craft that doesn't require a high degree of skill to be at the front of the fleet, unless you are talking about tiny classes.

azymuth said..

RichardG said..I just don't see it as being the best thing yet but it is certainly a great development.

How do you know it's not "the best thing yet" unless you're a proficient foiler?


I reckon foiling is a huge breakthrough in performance in;

Efficiency and speed in light winds on flat water.
Ability to ride even small mushy waves.
Downwind carving windswells.
Cranking tight turns.
Downwind & upwind angles - ability to explore.
Keeping Alzheimers at bay by processing in 3D

Thats great. Glad to hear. Its a great development for me and its a huge breakthrough for you and if you think its the best thing yet, that is cool. You have invested significant time in gaining your high level of proficiency and much respect to you. We all have different viewpoints based on different levels of exposure and skill. That is just natural.

azymuth said..Yeah, I've invested a lot of time, but it's been a joy. It's another advantage of foiling, 10-35 knots, always up on the foil, gusts and lulls. Never had a bad session.
Imagine if you were always continuously planing every session on a slalom or wave board

RichardG said.You have invested significant time in gaining your high level of proficiency and much respect to you. We all have different viewpoints based on different levels of exposure and skill. That is just natural.

Yeah, I've invested a lot of time, but it's been a joy. It's another advantage of foiling, 10-35 knots, always up on the foil, gusts and lulls. Never had a bad session.
Imagine if you were always continuously planing every session on a slalom or wave board

It sounds like you are saying its the best thing yet.

Boston! said..

Paducah said.


On a foil, it's about 15-25 knots lost that are never regained.

With a foil, a planing jibe is a jibe you messed up.

15 -25kts faster than this? We can't all be in your league, Antoine.

i.e. get the balance wrong and your speed goes to zero. Full disclaimer: I only lose 15 knots in a blown jibe.

Thanks for asking for clarification in a friendly manner. thumbs-up.gif

Ian K said..

Grantmac said..

turns can be carved without losing energy.

Decades of striving to perfect energy conservation gone to waste! Turning a slapper requires more attention to fore and aft trim than turning a foil board. (Not that I can do it yet, I'm in theory mode). If trim is too far rearward or forward for a fraction of a second at any of a dozen stages during a slapper gybe, that's 2 to 3 knots lost never to be regained. It all adds up, you exit at a dribble wondering where exactly you went wrong.

Trim too far back on a foil, you rise, converting kinetic energy to potential energy, realising your mistake you trim forward and get it all back again. Too easy

Can someone translate this

forceten said..

Ian K said..

Grantmac said..

turns can be carved without losing energy.

Decades of striving to perfect energy conservation gone to waste! Turning a slapper requires more attention to fore and aft trim than turning a foil board. (Not that I can do it yet, I'm in theory mode). If trim is too far rearward or forward for a fraction of a second at any of a dozen stages during a slapper gybe, that's 2 to 3 knots lost never to be regained. It all adds up, you exit at a dribble wondering where exactly you went wrong.

Trim too far back on a foil, you rise, converting kinetic energy to potential energy, realising your mistake you trim forward and get it all back again. Too easy

Can someone translate this

Most of my foiling gybe attempts end as failed backloops

Maddlad said..
Another day, another thread hijacked by a bloody LT sailor. They're getting as bad as kite surfers..
We get it you're old and you like to go slow..

Matt, I think foiling is cool but it is not necessarily guaranteed all of those at the top or bottom of windsurfing will get into it. Phil McGain at the top, admitted yesterday he has never foiled yet. It is not because he likes to go slow but because he has other things to do. Phil might be sailing the unspeakable raceboard at the Perth worlds in 2020. Cheers mate

There are a huge amount of things that people aren't proficient at, that they can still say aren't the best thing yet.

Yes I agree with that. But the point I am trying to make is that foiling is the best thing yet. It is not just a little bit different it is something else altogether. I encourage any competent windsurfer to give it a try. I accept that it is not for everybody, but I believe the vast majority will not look back.

azymuth said..
reckon foiling is a huge breakthrough in performance in;
... Keeping Alzheimers at bay by processing in 3D

Absolutely! Best part is it's friendly to aging bodies (at least once you're past the initial crash phase).

It's just opened up more options,, same as the LT.
I can't see how it's ruined anything

tbwonder said..

There are a huge amount of things that people aren't proficient at, that they can still say aren't the best thing yet.

Yes I agree with that. But the point I am trying to make is that foiling is the best thing yet. It is not just a little bit different it is something else altogether. I encourage any competent windsurfer to give it a try. I accept that it is not for everybody, but I believe the vast majority will not look back.

Perhaps, but as others say it depends on what type of windsurfing you like, and why. I've almost never done the sort of back-and-forth freeriding or slalom sailing that many people like and where foiling may excel, because it just doesn't interest me enough.

It's interesting to see that people have said a lot of the same sort of things about Formula, widestyle boards, shortboards, slalom boards, "funboards", etc. There's a huge amount of subjectivity in what we all like in sport, and it seems that sometimes people will hate at something one day and then love something very similar the next day or vice versa.

For example, plenty of people have spent plenty of time saying that modern freeride, slalom and B & J gear is just amazingly good, and that using it was fantastic. Now we have people saying that the same gear is "draggy", "inefficient", "sluggish" and generally ****. But if a certain board had a drag of "X" newtons in 2017, it still has the same drag in 2019. If it was great in 2017 then it is not crappy in 2019; the wind and water have not been rebuilt over the last couple of years. The board and sail is still producing exactly the same speed and performance that people raved about two summers ago, so to say that the gear cannot produce exactly the same joy that it did then isn't very logical.

We all love different things. Some love the sheer silent efficiency of foiling, and that's great. Some of us don't particularly like sheer silent efficiency - we go on the water to feel the slap of the waves, the hiss of the wake, the patter of the spray. It's interesting to see that the boat classes that have adopted foiling haven't really grown very much in absolute terms, and despite an incredible amount of hype and hundreds of millions being thrown at foiling sailboats the top-selling classes are "seahuggers".

If people love it, that's great, but that doesn't mean that it's the best thing yet.

Chris 249 said..Perhaps, but as others say it depends on what type of windsurfing you like, and why. I've almost never done the sort of back-and-forth freeriding or slalom sailing that many people like and where foiling may excel, because it just doesn't interest me enough.

I see foiling as the 5th windsurf category that adds to waves, freeride/B&J, slalom/race/speed and freestyle.

Who cares if it's the best. Each to their own


I reckon foiling adds 3 profound awesome new experiences to windsurfing;

Efficient, fast, fun light wind sailing in 8-14 knots.

Super fun downwind carving on windswells and easy upwind sailing at amazing angles.

Fun in mushy or unbreaking waves that are unrideable with wave boards.

cammd said..
you could hardly call sailing upwind or going fast in 8-14knts a profound new experience to the sport. formula has been going fast in 8-14 for 20 years and centreboard classes have been going upwind since the beginning.

I think its the speed at which you can go upwind, 10 to 12 knots of wind and you can go 18 to 20 knots upwind

AUS 814 said..I think its the speed at which you can go upwind, 10 to 12 knots of wind and you can go 18 to 20 knots upwind

cammd said..
you could hardly call sailing upwind or going fast in 8-14knts a profound new experience to the sport. formula has been going fast in 8-14 for 20 years and centreboard classes have been going upwind since the beginning.

I think its the speed at which you can go upwind, 10 to 12 knots of wind and you can go 18 to 20 knots upwind

Speed is relative to other vessels of the same or identical class. On the other hand foiling Moths, which will beat Windsurf foils around a course as I have seen, will reach 14 knots upwind and 20 knots downwind in just ten knots of wind, and in 20 knots of breeze they'll be cranking along at 17 knots upwind and 25-30 knots down. The figures you quote may not be accurate on the angles of the course. Foiling windsurfers are cool and awesome and I love that many are in love with foiling but they are not the fastest foiling craft around. Kitefoilers are also faster than windfoilers. All foiling sports are still minority sports in sailing. The biggest foiling one design class is the WASPZ which has at mid year just over 700 boats. During the 80's and 90's the Windsurfer Class grew massively with over 350,000 one design boards sold globally-is that not one of the, but not the only, best and greatest achievements ? The biggest sailing class ever. The LT has I expect over 1000 already since early 2018 and the Mistral One Design has over 30,000 since 1989. Whither the iFoil ?

AUS 814 said..
Not sure you why you have to bring the LT into the discussion, especially when you look at the title of the original post

The craft you mentioned again is a windsurfing vehicle as is a foil. The answer can involve relativity to various windsurfing vehicles. Don't be so precious. Foiling is great, just get over it.