onemorehuey said...

I had a lesson from a boat - Great job!
not cheap though

When you factor in that you don't have to waste ANY time walking back upwind, then the lessons from a boat are actually a lot less costly.

And the boat lessons do not screw up the local spot with issues like those mentioned in this thread.

Boat lessons are run by schools committed to a sustainable future for the sport in their area. They are run by schools committed to turning people into kitesurfers. Its the difference between quantity and quality.

Do the schools have an issue with Saffers plan for a launch and land area/ corridor ?

I'd actually go one step further and propose this:



This would leave a large section open to the beginners for land training and leave the rest of the people to rig up away from them. In it current format, beach training occurs all over the beach and you have to thread your way through them to launch and land.

I'm a little confused as to why the schools aren't open to discuss this here or are they not looking for a solution to the problem (or maybe they don't see it as a problem as long as their businesses thrive). The best solution would be an open discuss here without members of the public having to go back and forth with schools trying to resolve the issue playing negotiator or broken telephone.

kbv said...

matto said...

As an aside - the locations section within the KBV website has lost most of the detailed information - what happened to it?

Stylesheet problem - I think that was fixed last week - please let me know if you still find any "faulty" pages

I think he's referring to the zoning info that used to be up like St Kilda specified Advanced, Beginner areas and where to launch.

Talk about making a situation more difficult and more confusing just like a Council meeting.....there will be lots of talk and very little action.

Saffers plan is the solution !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Safer for kiters, Safer for the public and safer for the instructors and students it is LOGICAL.

Seems to me like the schools are playing hardball ......but why ? hmmmm
I have met a few and was even taught many years ago by Matt they all seem quite sensible and reasonable sort of blokes .......so what is the difficulty with an open discussion ?

Perhaps they might like to read through the conditions of their permit re: impingeing on the public ( yes other kiters are THE PUBLIC ).

I really hope this gets sorted out, I rarely kite at St KILDA anymore (unless it is 25+ and then there is only a few out ) and this is one of the reasons why.

It is kaos !!!

OMG......I feel for the local experianced kiters and general public down there as it seems the kite schools are taking over?????The beach is for everyone for Recreation NOT for running A Buisness....otherwise i might bring my welding fab shop down to the beach and give eveyone welding flash..........

kbv said...

A number of discussions (PMs and a few telephone calls - St Kilda, Hampton and other locations) today...

Here is the result:

The three St Kilda West Beach schools have been invited to participate in a private forum (ie moderated by KBV) with a St Kilda locals who are prepared to participate in discussions around constructive ideas for addressing the congestion issues.

Once the the schools have agreed to participate, you will (if you are interested) be sent an invite to the KBV GoogleGroup (if you are not already on the Group or not a KBV member) providing you signify your willingness to join in and participate constructively. Non-constructive, deragatory, rude, aggressive or off-topic comments will get you kicked off the forum faster than you can crash a kite on a 30Kt breeze. KBV reserves the right to invite/uninvite any participants.

To signify interest please PM me your REAL name and your email address so that you can be sent an invite. KBV members can join the GoogleGroup directly by clicking on the KBV GoogleGroup link in the Members Section. The three schools have already been sent invites.

Once an agreed solution is arrived at, KBV will represent the interests of all St Kilda kiters (schools, students and experienced kiters) in an approach to the City of Port Phillip for signposting and any other actions.

Also, some suggested reading: Look at the discussion on Seabreeze (Kitesurfing/General - Accident @ Pinnaroo) and draw your own conclusions.

Hi Everyone,

A few things I don't get. This forum has a KBV section. Why not ask Laurie to move this thread to there and deal with it. I find the idea of setting up a separate goole group where KBV reserves the right to invite/uninvite any participants ludicrous. Surely this in in the interests of the greater kiting community.

We have some great suggestions here by kiters who are interested in maintaining access for all to our beaches. Why can't KBV take this on? St Kilda is hugely popular, has high visibility and so far the council has been highly supportive of kiting. I feel that if St Kilda had council restrictions imposed then we would see this extend to other councils. KBV's role should be to intervene in these issues and act on behalf of the kiting community. Whether you kite there or not, it is clear that St Kilda is the hub of kiting in Melbourne and KBV committee members are local riders.

I hope it's just my perspective but it appears that there is a reluctance from KBV to deal with this, and I hope it is not due to the conflict of interests. Also, I feel that by having this issue open on the KBV section of Seabreeze there would be more input from the kiting community - yes, there would be some bull** but the proposed way of doing it reeks of closed shop - going through the motions with no intent of changing anything. There should be nothing to hide.

Perception is everything, and as a long term KBV and AKSA member and supporter(since AKSA started) if this is how I interpret the discussions to date I hate to think how others feel about this.

James.

Disclosure: I very rarely kite at St Kilda as it's too crowded, but used to kite there all the time. I am a real person - committee members know me. I was once on the KBV committee as a general committee member with so am all too aware of how easy it is for KBV/AKSA to be criticised from the sidelines. I was involved with AKSA 9/10 years ago in discussions with Parks Vic/MSV about safety, PFD's etc as well.

RAL INN said...

I might pipe in and just say that the Green area Saffer has marked and wants as the launch area is the wrong end of his red zone.

If there is to be a designated "student free zone" then logic dictates it to be the other end.
Schools should set a Buoy line that students would use as a reference to where they should be returning to terra firma or join into the full right of way rules and the responsibilities that go with kiting past those Buoys.

From a competent kiters perspective. launching at that end of the beach allows easier access to the blue area which in turn allows for an upwind of students tack into the "kiddies pool" area.

Trying to launch from the green zone as Saffer has described involves setting up, getting kite in air and then walking right through the teaching area, then launching off right into the thick of the students.

If we make it the other end, we split the two launch points for the intermediate/advanced riders and put the advanced riders downwind of the beginners where the beginners are bound to go if they drop their kites or lose control. Its far easier to control a starting point for beginners than an end point, trust me, I've seen how far they get dragged by their kites. Why on earth would you want to put beginners upwind of people knowing how often they are likely to drop their kites and the issues they have with basics like relaunching? If one beginner gets dragged through the launch area it effectively shuts it off for anyone coming in or out for the next 10 minutes while they try get out of the water.

Also if we try make intermediate/advanced riders tack back up to the pond, then the area will be empty if the wind is light. A lot of them go out in light wind and practice unhooked stuff. Its far easier to have one launch point with access to both areas and it takes up less space. The area at the top of the spit also has a small wind shadow so if people have to tack up there, there is a risk they could be push to go too close to the yachts to make it through or get dragged downwind by the light wind into the beginners. The wind direction can also make it difficult to tack past without getting too close to the sandbar which means they will interfere with lessons at the point irrespective.

The idea is to have a non-teaching corridor at the top of the spit that people can access both areas from.

I might clear up something Saffer.
in regards to the Kiddies pool and launching and landing there. the status quo should remain. So if you want to set up there etc. continue to do so.

If you launch into the kiddies pool and can stay upwind then crossing to your blue area should be easy enough. the corridor is naturally above the student area anyway.

self policing of the bouy line by the schools of their students will make the north launch area easier than it is now, which at moment is not too bad but does require patience and waiting for a gap etc.
the spit and the channel past it make for a natural corridor for kiters with the abilities
that mixing it in the Kiddies pool probably requires.

RAL INN said...

I might clear up something Saffer.
in regards to the Kiddies pool and launching and landing there. the status quo should remain. So if you want to set up there etc. continue to do so.

If you launch into the kiddies pool and can stay upwind then crossing to your blue area should be easy enough. the corridor is naturally above the student area anyway.

self policing of the bouy line by the schools of their students will make the north launch area easier than it is now, which at moment is not too bad but does require patience and waiting for a gap etc.
the spit and the channel past it make for a natural corridor for kiters with the abilities
that mixing it in the Kiddies pool probably requires.

Its 30m or less between the yacht and the sand. If you ride 10m downwind of the yacht you're gonna have to lift your kite over a unpredictable beginner on the top of the sandbank. Add the lull, light wind variations which could see you go downwind etc and it makes it unsafe for both the instructor, the yacht owners and the riders or you may find riders beaching themselves on the sandbank with an instructor right there trying to get past. It creates an unnecessary risk that can easily be avoided by having the launch point there.

Just curious how these boat lessons work..
E.g how do you set up and launch the kite? Do you hand over to the student in the water? One instructor per boat?
What about the price?
I can't imagine the kite schools at St Kilda generate much profit, considering equipment cost, standby time etc.
And I guess a boat adds a host of additional costs.

axis said...

I find the idea of setting up a separate google group where KBV reserves the right to invite/uninvite any participants ludicrous. Surely this in in the interests of the greater kiting community.

We have some great suggestions here by kiters who are interested in maintaining access for all to our beaches. Why can't KBV take this on? St Kilda is hugely popular, has high visibility and so far the council has been highly supportive of kiting. I feel that if St Kilda had council restrictions imposed then we would see this extend to other councils. KBV's role should be to intervene in these issues and act on behalf of the kiting community. Whether you kite there or not, it is clear that St Kilda is the hub of kiting in Melbourne and KBV committee members are local riders.

I hope it's just my perspective but it appears that there is a reluctance from KBV to deal with this, and I hope it is not due to the conflict of interests. Also, I feel that by having this issue open on the KBV section of Seabreeze there would be more input from the kiting community - yes, there would be some bull** but the proposed way of doing it reeks of closed shop - going through the motions with no intent of changing anything. There should be nothing to hide.

James - I must protest! KBV IS taking this on - the issue that a private forum addresses is antagonistic flaming from some Seabreeze members who have no interest in contributing in a concrete form to the discussion. There is an open invite to anyone who wants to contribute - members or not - we just reserve the right to boot them if they reveal hidden agendas..

I am not defending or protecting the schhools but it is really they who should be taking note of the suggestions here - but understanding their side, it seems however that everytime they post a comment they get flamed - KBV acted to provide some forum for moving this on constructively.

Also, this is not (yet) a kiters versus council matter - it is kiters amongst themselves where the schools are part of the equation!!! KBV is in constant contact with COPP and now Bayside in the interests of kiters (and in the interests of safety and also other beach-goers where rogue kiters are concerned).

honestly fb , what a great help to the thread that reply is. By the way the only real reg in Vic boating laws pertaining to stuff a kitboarder needs as equipment is a pfd 1 2 in coastal waters, enclosed 1 2 or 3(ppb). inland waters 1 2 or 3.

your just tish stirin

Also too as part of the cost is that the boat will need to be in survey to conduct commercial operations from it. Also the boat skipper needs to at least have a coxwains ticket to operate that boat commercially. Thats the way fishing charters have been for a while.
So if the instructor needs a skipper to run the boat while they are teaching up goes the cost again.

In my experience of Problem Solving - the simplest idea wins out - getting the schools to teach off boats is not a simple solution - by Kitehards admission it is a lengthy process and not something that could be implemented within, say, one week.

However, access lanes, signage and information could be implemented within a week. The schools could share the responsibility for placing the markers and maybe even pegging out user areas on the beach. They could hand out flyers to kiters coming to the beach (there are only two main access points so it's not hard to distribute the info)

Kiting is going become higher (more than now!) profile in St Kilda - what with the Katani shop there and the West Beach Pavillion restaurant opening soon (when exactly? Looking forward to an after session beer there) Add to that the fact that the nationals are being held on the same weekend as the St Kilda Festival - The kite schools must be rubbing their hands in anticipation of loads of prospective students.

Now is the time for KBV to be proactive with the kite schools on this matter - there is stacks of space there for everyone - it just needs to be sensibly divided up and allocated. Maybe it will mean the end of leaving your kite on the beach with the lines laid out as most people do and using an access corridor to get out to the deeper water, but when you consider that there is masses of kiteable space once you get out there, with varied "terrain" I think its worth being organised with it.

Teaching off boats is well and good but when you consider how accessible west beach is - the kiteschools aren't going to give up that access easily in favour of outlaying masses of capital on boats, certification and coxwains tickets!