How about the schools organise some flags on the beach,to indicate where they are conducting lessons.(similar to surf lifesaving)

They could leave an area clear for launcing and landing,and also an area further down the beach for coming in.

For example the beach is lets say 200m,We as riders could have the first 50 m as indicated by saffer from the spit and also the last 50m before the bushy area.

I think this could work well ,as instructers would have a more defined area instead of just using the whole beach and hoping nothing will ever go wrong.

Matt,as you are the only school that cares enough to answer our safety concerns,
what do you think

Hi Extreme,
Sorry I just saw your comments after I posted mine but it seems we have similar ideas.
I appreciate your input and I think we try what I have suggested and have a trial and take it from there.

Cheers.

Just to let you know that KBV is in communication with the three schools concerned - we will represent the non-school views and try to broker some compromise for use West Beach.

Suggestions for discussion are:
<*>Dedicated non-school launch/land areas possibly at north and south end of the beach.
<*> Defined body-dragging aread in-between
<*> Flagged areas as per recent posts.

These are not promises but purely subjects for discussion - all three schools first have to agree before this becomes reality.

Just to let you know that KBV is in communication with the three schools concerned - we will represent the non-school views and try to broker some compromise for use West Beach.

Suggestions for discussion are:
<*>Dedicated non-school launch/land areas possibly at north and south end of the beach.
<*> Defined body-dragging aread in-between
<*> Flagged areas as per recent posts.

These are not promises but purely subjects for discussion - all three schools first have to agree before this becomes reality.

Okay - had some contact but it seems the schools will discuss solutions amongst themselves and let us know what they come up with.

For those that dont know, KBV does not have any regulatory control here - at best we can only facilitate discussion. And note that the noobies are generally not yet KBV members either.

One suggestion sent in: "suggest that a St Kilda Kiters Committee be formed [possibly via KBV] representing St Kilda Kiters [Redkite, Saffer, and others but not schools] - to determine what the general situation may be and this could involve a beach poll of what the non-school kiters users want. If outcomes go to council and to Parks Vic they would probably listen..."

kbv said...

Just to let you know that KBV is in communication with the three schools concerned - we will represent the non-school views and try to broker some compromise for use West Beach.

Suggestions for discussion are:
<*>Dedicated non-school launch/land areas possibly at north and south end of the beach.
<*> Defined body-dragging aread in-between
<*> Flagged areas as per recent posts.

These are not promises but purely subjects for discussion - all three schools first have to agree before this becomes reality.

Okay - had some contact but it seems the schools will discuss solutions amongst themselves and let us know what they come up with.

For those that dont know, KBV does not have any regulatory control here - at best we can only facilitate discussion. And note that the noobies are generally not yet KBV members either.

One suggestion sent in: "suggest that a St Kilda Kiters Committee be formed [possibly via KBV] representing St Kilda Kiters [Redkite, Saffer, and others but not schools] - to determine what the general situation may be and this could involve a beach poll of what the non-school kiters users want. If outcomes go to council and to Parks Vic they would probably listen..."

extreme said...

Just some clarity and info for kiters that dont know.

The president and vice president of KBV own two of the kiteschools in st.Kilda.

So this is a joke, surely....

I was sent an email from KBV recently asking why i didnt renew my membership. I resisted the urge to tee off, and im still resisting the urge.

However i just cannot ever imagine being a member again now. Why would i want to waste $65 bucks so a few kite school owners can protect their own interest... OH, but the insurance i hear you say. Well, it has been done to death, and end result is the insurance policy costs $5.90 (yes less than a decent hamburger), as if that is going to cover you for anything (considering IKO third party insurance (insurance only) costs in the order of $80 US dollars (you dont get all the other benefits... haha)

KBV your a joke, a big toothless tiger of a joke.

GalahOnTheBay said...

Ladies, gentlemen and others; please keep the flaming down to a medium size bonfire.

Thanks,
Galah

Did something get deleted? It didn't seem that bad so far.

I have no issue with school or retailer representation on the committee, but having both the president and vice president seems like a slight conflict of interest.

extreme said...

Just some clarity and info for kiters that dont know.

The president and vice president of KBV own two of the kiteschools in st.Kilda.

Thanks for disclosing that info
us kiters need to fix that!
How can KBV represent the interests of kiters when the pres and vp are such a big part of the problem?

kbv said...

extreme said...

Just some clarity and info for kiters that dont know.
The president and vice president of KBV own two of the kiteschools in st.Kilda.

Partially correct - only one committee member is a school owner!!
Check out the committee page on the KBV web site.


Just to recap KBV's involvement here: we did approach the schools and got mixed responses - the result was that we were informed to the effect that "the schools will sort out something if required and let us know"... The schools are aware of the postings here but some of the avoid public debates anyway.

We cannot (yet) regulate the schools, and we dont have the authority to regulate the beaches, so, in this matter we are partially toothless as someone pointed out.
However we but we do work with the councils and the other authorities and to date have managed to preserve and promote access at many locations on behalf of all kiters (KBV members or not) and are supported by some who appreciate the work. [Interesting that historically KBV gets most cricism from non-members].

And its a free world - its no big deal if you are not a KBV member however if you are interested in joining and have ideas to make KBV more relevant then we welcome you.

Hi Matt

I was a member for the last 2 years. I left because I couldn't see my money working. This is my first year as a non-member. I'm happy to supply my member number as proof. Most of the disillusioned non-members are actually ex-members. Most of them have seen their money wasted year after year. Do you really expect them to continue to pay until the KBV can prove its something worth joining?

Also, the president and vice president comment is correct, the vice president doesn't exist. A quick search of the committee identified that another member of the committee is an instructor in a kiteschool making it two of the committee. I didn't search against all the members so perhaps you can clarify which members represent the community, and which members represent schools and which represent shops. (this probably should have been disclosed on the KBV website in the interests of open-ness)

Lets look at this realistically. The schools won't self regulate, and the instructors won't. Both have a financial interest in using the maximum amount of space. I thought that was the purpose of the KBV? If it really is toothless, then why don't we just disband it because what is really the point?

I have no issue with you personally, whenever I've met you on the beach you've always been friendly so please don't take this as a personal attack. I'm just questioning the logistics of putting in place some structures to make things easier for kiters at St Kilda rather than the current structure which seems to benefit the school and does seem to be dangerous to both kiters and learners alike. You cannot tell me the instructors are really comfortable breaking IKO guidelines by teaching within 30m of each other?

The offshore option is potentially something which does offer some real benefits to both learners and kiters alike for example, and this may be something we need to push towards. People may complain about lessons being more expensive, but how much more value would lessons offer students if they spent more time on the water dragging or trying to get up on the board instead of walking upwind through a congested launch point? You can't tell me this approach wouldn't benefit everyone?

As is the typical fashion, I'm pretty sure nothing will happen until one of the following happens:

1. There is an incident as a result of the closeness of students to each other or other kiters.
2. The council intervenes due to a complaint.

Do we really want to wait for one of these to happen? Clearly there is no risk management in kiteboarding or some of the schools or kite shops would realise that both of these are likely to have a detrimental impact on St Kilda kiting in general, both for schools and kiters alike. The last thing we need is controls put in place to make sure everything is ultra safe and every rider has to wear a helmet, coast guard approved life jacket, stay 100m from shore whether they are learning or not, etc.

RABBLE

kbv said...
We cannot (yet) regulate the schools, and we dont have the authority to regulate the beaches, so, in this matter we are partially toothless as someone pointed out.
However we but we do work with the councils and the other authorities and to date have managed to preserve and promote access at many locations on behalf of all kiters (KBV members or not) and are supported by some who appreciate the work.

To my feeble brain it would appear that the solution would be for KBV to approach the council and complain about the number of commercial kiteboarding operators at the beach. (If the council are the ones giving the licenses to the schools to operate on the beach)
Why wait until there's a problem and then turn around and say "we knew this would happen"?

At the very least the schools should realise that KBV will take this step if nothing is done.

Pardon me if I'm out of line, obviously this is not my local spot.

slightly OT, but I'm curious when do instructors get to kite? I kind of feel sad for them...

Well over in Perth - we have a similar situation in the river with 5 - 10 instructors going at it, and we have always saved the top 50 metres or so of beach for the experienced riders - works a treat

Trant said...

kbv said...
We cannot (yet) regulate the schools, and we dont have the authority to regulate the beaches, so, in this matter we are partially toothless as someone pointed out.
However we but we do work with the councils and the other authorities and to date have managed to preserve and promote access at many locations on behalf of all kiters (KBV members or not) and are supported by some who appreciate the work.

To my feeble brain it would appear that the solution would be for KBV to approach the council and complain about the number of commercial kiteboarding operators at the beach. (If the council are the ones giving the licenses to the schools to operate on the beach)
Why wait until there's a problem and then turn around and say "we knew this would happen"?

At the very least the schools should realise that KBV will take this step if nothing is done.

Pardon me if I'm out of line, obviously this is not my local spot.

Seems like the sensible thing for KBV to do, but will it happen when there are a couple of schools represented on the KBV board.???

The sooner the schools are required by Council to operate away the beach and forced to work from boats and give real lessons with real sized kites in deep water the sooner all those congestion problems will go away.

This is the best system for turning someone into a kiter in the minimum time and with minimum impact and inconvenience to other kiters and beach users.

1 - Make all potential students learn to fly a trainer kite (really well at least 10 hrs practice, more the better) and tell them to do it in a park or on any uncrowded beach.

2 - Offer deep water lessons from boats, use radio helmets, use real size kites. People only need 1-3 of these lessons and they are fine to continue learning on their own, and they have learned to get away from the beach and get on the board asap.

3 - Want to know more, book a lesson with me in Sydney!

I have family who live nearby to the sandpit and they will not visit that part of the beach with their kids.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

Does anyone know the outcome of the "discussions"??

Just got back from St K where the Instructor/"Red Zone" has moved further South and East - ie. encroaching on more general area.

As the wind was essentially southerly - made it very difficult to ride anywhere in the "kiddie pool" without having to maneuver around stationary kites at 12 o'clock.

KIT33R said...

Can we get some feedback from Sydney instructors who use boats and from ex-students who were taught under this system, please.

Don't want to upset any schools at St Kilda, and based on my experience with running schools and managing access to local spots, whats happening down there is not sustainable.

The first school to get a boat or boats in the St Kilda area will have the competitive advantage, there is no doubt that the lessons are superior and better value than beach based lessons.

Instructors feel more empowered and proud of their job, they know they are doing the best type of lesson, and the school can attract the most professional and passionate instructors. The school wants and needs the good guys/gals, the ones with boat and instruction skills, running boat based lessons will attract these instructors.

The school will gain the respect of all the local kiters and will get the bulk of the off the beach referrals.
The school will gain the respect of other water based sporting bodies, boat/yacht clubs/water police/councils. (The school can make its boats available for rescue jobs, etc). Running boat based instruction is seen by people outside the sport as a much more professional way to teach kitesurfing.

Beach based lessons are bad for the sport, bad for the spot and bad for the learner. They are based on excessive body dragging and flying big kites, often on full length lines, on shallow water, close to the shore and other begginers.
Most students in these situations instinctively know they are in close proximity ot danger, and they can be seen with tense shoulders giving the bar the death grip.

They spend at least half of their valuable lesson time walking back upwind, threading their way through other begginers and the usual show offs that ride in amongst the learners. Thats no way to learn and its no way to run a business either IMO.

Kiters in the St Kilda area have as much right to use the water and shoreline as any other water user. I'm fairly certain that the permits granted to schools (that actually have permits) do not give them "exlusive use" of the shoreline and shallows, in fact its likely that the opposite is true - that they must give fair access and priority to all other water users.
I think there is a big problem there and it will only get worse until kiters unite and reclaim their spot, or when a school acts pro-actively and invests some of the profits they have made into equipment (like boats) that takes their students off the beaches and gives them a REAL lesson.

Visiting kiters from overseas can rent the school/instructors for one on one lessons experiences!$

just coupe, of cents worth of advice