Crusty mal rider who owns my local break blamed me for all the sups that come out there.

I told him that the only reason I bring them there is to p#ss him off

Got the reaction you'd expect

X2

Best polite response of that I've heard, for young dicks:

'Shut up or I'll put your rent up!'

why is it that as a windsurfer I could go anywhere in Australia and be welcomed with open arms at any spot and have fellow sailors enjoying the stoke and that as a surfer there is all this ridiculous local tribalism? Is it not possible for you all to just get along? As far as I am aware none of you own the waves or the spots. Everyone is entitled to surf where they want.

sick_em_rex said..

why is it that as a windsurfer I could go anywhere in Australia and be welcomed with open arms at any spot and have fellow sailors enjoying the stoke and that as a surfer there is all this ridiculous local tribalism? Is it not possible for you all to just get along? As far as I am aware none of you own the waves or the spots. Everyone is entitled to surf where they want.

I think there is no local tribalism against windsurfer which come up to the peak with SUP. This is just a animosity from surfer to any surfing neophyte doing their beginnings in a wrong place . Practice by yourself away from others, waiting your turn does mean too, to learn basics and long seeking of waves mechanics and human surfing comportement before mixing yourself with crowd's peak
Surfers will learn something from SUP but SUPer have to learn surfing with a surfboard before entering waves with a SUP.
Anytime i get copped while SUPing, i think it's not totallyfrom my own attitude. It seems to me i pay for an other one.

Hi, Leroy.....we are page 2

Ashmullet said..
Also I'm with legion if u can put ya cards on the table and turn some heads why not try and dominate,any short boarder that can throw a few snaps and reo's look to dominate so why not a sup

Psst! You might want to look into Legion's history before you agree with him ... hint - he wasn't suggesting to do this with sup, although in some circumstances it might be OK. Each spot is different and if you know, you know. It's not something you're going to learn off an internet forum. There are some spots I wouldn't ever contemplate this approach. There are other spots I wouldn't do anything but paddle to the head of the line. Two places in particular I know exactly what the hierarchy ladder is and exactly where I fit before I even get my feet wet, and I can repeatedly paddle to the same spot in the ladder every time. And so can the other regulars, and if anyone from lower down tries to go to the wrong spot, it won't work. Maybe for one wave and that's it. They'll either be verbally told where they belong or physically shut down by blocking, paddling inside, dropping in, etc.

The problem with sup is by nature you don't deal well with sitting anywhere but near the top of the ladder. Other craft can sit inside the breaking sets line and just go under (which is a good indication you're in the right spot - if you have to get your head wet occasionally). This doesn't work well with your craft. You have to paddle outside everyone else and then decide when it's your turn and come through from the outside. This harbours resentment. Even if you don't intend to paddle into every set, it looks like you will and it looks like you are taking the top of the ladder. If there is one three wave set every 5 or 10 minutes and three (greedy) sups out, naturally everyone sitting inside will get nothing unless conflict ensues. And it's those greedy sups that have developed your reputation, like it or not. Also the less skilled ones, who even if it's their turn, if they come steaming through a pack from the outside they'd better not blow it. It's not a good look. If I blow a wave that I shouldn't have, instant self demotion several rungs on the ladder as penance.

One of the few times I've been at a break outnumbered by sup (maybe 20:10?), they were unskilled. They were dropping in on each other, picking sets and absolutely blowing it in front of everyone, paddling across in front of each other, etc, etc, etc. OK, they were wind crew doing something before the wind picked up and having fun, but it was the blind leading the blind for sure.

Luckily the economics of the day meant supply was sufficient, and the location meant I could sit 50m away and just watch with a bag of popcorn between my waves.

I agree there is little chance of solving it til we reach some time in the future when SUP has matured to the place where longboarding is now, though you can't deny that issues abound in that space as well, as they do with shortboard beginners/greedy pigs.

Legion you make some good points but I've found that your logic of local/better surfer straight to the outside doesn't work - especially if you're on a SUP. Back in the day it did, but with so many mature age learners on mals, shorts and sups it is a rare place which isn't just shy of a free-for-all IMHO.

i agree gizzie....say hi to guy for me ...

Tang said..
Legion you make some good points but I've found that your logic of local/better surfer straight to the outside doesn't work - especially if you're on a SUP.

You're right, which is why:

Legion said..
You might want to look into Legion's history before you agree with him ... hint - he wasn't suggesting to do this with sup ...

On shortboards it works at specific places. Extreme example - you reckon JOB paddles out at the back of the line at Pipe? Or straight to first place? It works for me in some places - I'm not going to line up with 30 blow-ins at my local(s), I'm not going to sit down the line on the shoulder with kooks if I want to sit deep at a particular spot on a bank or reef. Experienced surfers know their place exactly and don't jump the queue inappropriately nor willingly relegate themselves down the queue unless they're super casual and not interested in surfing that day.

I know some of you have some water background but quite a lot don't, so here's a story:

The other day I was out and it was less than 1' but like 35? and glassy so just a nice day to get wet. There were about 10 or 12 locals at a spot with about a 1m takeoff zone. Everyone taking turns but almost every wave a party wave. Normally (local) grommie would get a few down the line but never be at the head unless the locals let him. And that's OK because grommie knows that and locals know that it's all good. Sometimes some crumbs will come or crowd will be down or everyone's in a good mood and grommie gets a turn. And one day grommie will be older local if he sticks around. Anyway, this one particular day because it was so constricted and everyone in everyone's pocket the mood was OK but a wave came and grommie was milling around inside waiting for crumbs but decided to try and call priority over older local that didn't actually have priority at all but was using his status. Everyone laughing at the audacity etc and of course grommie was dropped in on but smiling and happy. Well, it turned into a bit of a joke with people dropping in on his every wave and then taking his (no leggie!) board and paddling off with it and trying to send him in etc. Standard stuff. Went on for a while. And he was well and truly put in his place. No harm done and all somewhat good natured but he knew where he belonged and he won't forget it.

The point of the story is when I was a kid, this happened all the time, all the time. You grew up at the beach and the older crew did what the Americans call "hazing". You were hassled and pranked and beaten and whatever. And you learned that the older crew were to be respected. And one day, if you kept at it at the one spot you became part of that older crew. It might take (should take) a decade. It's not all beating up grommies, you also take a certain responsibility for your area and keep it in line. And on a good uncrowded day, grommie will get plenty of concessions and looked after by the older guys vs. blow-ins. And despite the pranks, you can be sure that the locals will have grommie's back if anything or anyone troubles him.

Nowadays, with more mature beginners, there's no way they're going to be hassled and put in place by young aggressive surfers. They're going to threaten legalities etc. You get a 40-50-something beginner business man on any craft who's used to getting their way, there's no way they're going to learn from kids. And so everyone thinks there's no pecking order and everyone thinks they have a right to every wave they want. That just screws things up and things end up like the Alley thread.

Same with numerous other breaks around the world. A good strong pack of locals who care about their place and have some regulation make for a well run break. The breaks with overwhelming numbers with everyone on equal footing and everyone feeling a right to a wave suck.

My local gets overwhelming numbers, very often. There are a number of locals that help run it but if they're not there for some reason there's just nothing you can do when there are 30 vs. 1. 30 vs. 5 and it works. 30 vs. 1 and not only do you have to fight for every wave yourself, but all the blow-ins also do it to each other. 30 vs. 5 and some semblance of order arises. The locals stake their spots and naturally force a virtual and physical ladder that ebbs and flows with priority changes. Otherwise you can get like 10 (blow-in) guys in a pack and when a wave comes they all scramble at once, paddling in each others' way, no priority, no order, dropping in.

FWIW we've got chickens and every time new ones are introduced the older ones put them in their place. Sort of a pecking order, if you will. Same with introducing a pup to a dog pack. Or any number of other analogies. Teaching grommies is a good thing. Unregulated breaks, bad.

This is completely off topic to the OP, but just a helpful reminder to those without a water background of how nuanced and complex water politics can be.

I suspect you were banned for making absurdly longwinded posts Legion
Sort of "big doggies boss around little doggies but all those doggies nip and yap at any visitors"

jbshack said..

Legion said..

I know some of you have some water background but quite a lot don't, so here's a story:

The other day I was out and it was less than 1' but like 35? and glassy so just a nice day to get wet. There were about 10 or 12 locals at a spot with about a 1m takeoff zone. Everyone taking turns but almost every wave a party wave. Normally (local) grommie would get a few down the line but never be at the head unless the locals let him. And that's OK because grommie knows that and locals know that it's all good. Sometimes some crumbs will come or crowd will be down or everyone's in a good mood and grommie gets a turn. And one day grommie will be older local if he sticks around. Anyway, this one particular day because it was so constricted and everyone in everyone's pocket the mood was OK but a wave came and grommie was milling around inside waiting for crumbs but decided to try and call priority over older local that didn't actually have priority at all but was using his status. Everyone laughing at the audacity etc and of course grommie was dropped in on but smiling and happy. Well, it turned into a bit of a joke with people dropping in on his every wave and then taking his (no leggie!) board and paddling off with it and trying to send him in etc. Standard stuff. Went on for a while. And he was well and truly put in his place. No harm done and all somewhat good natured but he knew where he belonged and he won't forget it.

The point of the story is when I was a kid, this happened all the time, all the time. You grew up at the beach and the older crew did what the Americans call "hazing". You were hassled and pranked and beaten and whatever. And you learned that the older crew were to be respected. And one day, if you kept at it at the one spot you became part of that older crew. It might take (should take) a decade. It's not all beating up grommies, you also take a certain responsibility for your area and keep it in line. And on a good uncrowded day, grommie will get plenty of concessions and looked after by the older guys vs. blow-ins. And despite the pranks, you can be sure that the locals will have grommie's back if anything or anyone troubles him.

Nowadays, with more mature beginners, there's no way they're going to be hassled and put in place by young aggressive surfers. They're going to threaten legalities etc. You get a 40-50-something beginner business man on any craft who's used to getting their way, there's no way they're going to learn from kids. And so everyone thinks there's no pecking order and everyone thinks they have a right to every wave they want. That just screws things up and things end up like the Alley thread.

Same with numerous other breaks around the world. A good strong pack of locals who care about their place and have some regulation make for a well run break. The breaks with overwhelming numbers with everyone on equal footing and everyone feeling a right to a wave suck.

My local gets overwhelming numbers, very often. There are a number of locals that help run it but if they're not there for some reason there's just nothing you can do when there are 30 vs. 1. 30 vs. 5 and it works. 30 vs. 1 and not only do you have to fight for every wave yourself, but all the blow-ins also do it to each other. 30 vs. 5 and some semblance of order arises. The locals stake their spots and naturally force a virtual and physical ladder that ebbs and flows with priority changes. Otherwise you can get like 10 (blow-in) guys in a pack and when a wave comes they all scramble at once, paddling in each others' way, no priority, no order, dropping in.

FWIW we've got chickens and every time new ones are introduced the older ones put them in their place. Sort of a pecking order, if you will. Same with introducing a pup to a dog pack. Or any number of other analogies. Teaching grommies is a good thing. Unregulated breaks, bad.

This is completely off topic to the OP, but just a helpful reminder to those without a water background of how nuanced and complex water politics can be.

SO your not only grumpy and pushy in the surf, you pick on young kids as well..Seriously

I'd bet you wouldn't have acted like that if his father or older brother had been watching..All that and in a 1 foot wave

Do you think that older brothers and fathers will tell their youth to let you go on some waves if you are paddling on your shortboard with your old worker's shoulder?

^ One of the aforementioned mature beginners.

Did I say it was me? For the record I watched, carefully, to make sure he was OK and he was. It was good-natured enough and he took it well. He went through a rite of passage growing up as a grommet in Australia. It's something all grommets at a break with a local presence used to go through and something "mature beginners" miss out on and will never understand, and I personally reckon that's a shame.

I didn't personally act like anything, and plenty of times I've been in the water with brothers, fathers etc and it's all "your mother" "your sister" jokes and dropping in and burning for fun between groups on down days. How on earth do you think young sports groups interact?

Pretty much every surfing fiction I've ever heard of dramatises the exact same concept. Non-surfing fiction too. Non-fiction too - it's called initiation.

Grommie (and he is around 16, not a young kid) was lucky to be accepted as part of a very localised crew. Baby steps to being part of a great club. An outsider would have just been ignored.

One day grommie will have earned his respect and no-one at that location will drop in on him and he will be able to stake his spot on the ladder with pride.

In the meantime, he's learned that grommies don't try to take set waves when his elders are around. A decent elder will let him have them if it's a good day and there are enough waves and that's what will mostly happen to someone who has paid their dues over time and has waited their turn on the day. But that particular day was tiny and just a gathering in the water instead of on the grass and everyone doing party waves etc and burning each other for fun. And a couple of elders having fun decided to teach a harmless lesson by calling priority on a 1' wave as a joke. He knew he was being a cheeky bugger calling off guys double his age with a cheeky grin. He pushed his luck and got called on it and paid a harmless price.

That's how local breaks work and are regulated. Like e.g. bakesy's or that other one with a busy carpark you sometimes visit and have posted pictures of. See how long you can push your luck out there.

In bakesy's case, there's another politics issue. Posted too many pics and the word went out to stop. If he continued, expect repercussions. I don't know what exactly, but the message got across. bakesy seems old school enough to have worked it out. Another interesting example of local regulating.

I know it's a waste of time trying to explain how things work in the water over the internet and you've just demonstrated why. Some people will never get it. It's a highly complex environment, both in terms of water dynamics and politics. That's why it's so interesting.

It's certainly not exclusive to surfing. Watch some kids in a footy team and the tricks they play on each other. Or any activity that involves a reasonable group of overenthusiastic young kids or animals. It's play fighting and it's how people and animals learn. Watch a young pup try to snatch a mouthful from an alpha dog's bowl - that's what grommie did.

You might be in for a lesson if you go in the water when you go to Hawaii ...

Sorry Gizzie, there I go again ...

jbshack said..
But in the story the kid didn't drop in on the guy. Legion even said the old guy didn't have priority, just that as he was a Grommie, he isn't entitled to his share of waves.. Thats farked up and shows the guys level of mentality IMHO

It's fun between a friendly group jb. A group that you will never be part of or experience. I just looked at the photos from that day and there are two or three people on more than half of the waves. (Two) Grommies being dropped in on, oldest locals being dropped in on, oldest locals dropping in. Laughter, finger signs, burns. Hardly worth a paddle and yet the bored pack turned it into a fun day out. I never asked grommie since how he felt about it, don't know him that well. But I might ask him, out of curiosity, and get back to you.

People like you are exactly what I was talking about. Mature beginners that don't and will never get it.

I think u missed the point JB.

Great posts Legion.