How do you interpret the new rule?

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General Sail making Construction Blokarts Events & Competition

aus230

1660 posts

aus230

WA, 1660 posts

2 Apr 2011 8:54am

Gizzmo

The intent was to show Ron some information on my mini(which was built before the mini rules came out, When I built it it was under the Lake Lefroy Mini concept where anything went,as long as it fitted inside Paul's measurements. That allowed using any wheels, wings ect.to it was an experimental concept )

I agree with the new rule and have altered the yacht to comply with the new rules, another thing that I think we have missed is that 90% + of the mini,s sailing are commercially built yachts and not home built,I hope that there are a lot more home built yachts being constructed now that there is a class underway
Cheers
Vic

Nikrum

TAS

1972 posts

Nikrum

TAS, 1972 posts

2 Apr 2011 9:31pm

Ta Vic,
Now I understand. Great now I believe we can all rest easy but I would like to see those wheels catered for. We all know you get a softer smoother ride from a Large Dia Wheel. Like you I want to see this Sport grOW just to have the company if nothing else.
Ron

Gizmo

2865 posts

Gizmo

SA, 2865 posts

2 Apr 2011 9:47pm

Sometime ago there was actually a small Land yacht class that would have catered for even 20" wheels, but that class got hijacked by just a few people wanting to make a quick buck out of the sport. They changed the rules to suit their needs.... BUT that's another story that I'm not going to pursue.

The FISLY Mini class 5.6m is a great rule and will do great things for the future of the sport world wide.

aus230

1660 posts

aus230

WA, 1660 posts

2 Apr 2011 8:03pm

current aus230 mini with changes

cheers
vic

Nikrum

TAS

1972 posts

Nikrum

TAS, 1972 posts

3 Apr 2011 12:15am

Looks Good Vic
I'll bet the Old Sphincter is watching real careful like for objects coming through the seating. You wouldn't want to hit a dried Pea

that close to the ground.. Least ways I have the Razors Spine beneath me

Ron

landyacht

5921 posts

landyacht

WA, 5921 posts

2 Apr 2011 10:33pm

IPKSA said...

Now I'm starting to feel the love folks !

Seems like we may just have twigged the reasons for the simple miniyacht rule.

So, as a special treat for those who may have a wheel fettish this is for ye ...
www.hortiinnovations.nl

And to try help a little more with the confusion over the intended max tyre size for miniyachts - what we are suggesting is that the "Standard Line" ie cheap and cheerful tyre is the max size .
Click on Buggy wheels site
Select the English version
Click on Buggy wheels
and then click on the "standard line" wheel photo for the tyre specs - www.hortiinnovations.nl

So now thats sorted lets get back to having fun - gret miniyacht spirit you guys and gals have, keep it up.

Alan

these are the wheel/tyre combination that most of our minis are using.
by using the work MAX are you saying that this would be as wide and tall as you can go.
for example a blokart has a front wheel with a rim diameter of 8.75" ( fits a 12" bike tyre) but no bigger diameter that than a 4.00x8 standard wheel. the front wheel on the yacht Im currently building has a wheel/tyre combination that although narrow has an outsidediameter the same as a 4.00x8 standard wheel.
i apologise for all the silly questions, but this is all going to happen one day, In french, german and english in the one meeting

aus230

1660 posts

aus230

WA, 1660 posts

4 Apr 2011 9:50pm

What are you up to now Paul, give us a look

Cheers
Vic

Maybe like this

Hiko

1229 posts

Hiko

1229 posts

5 Apr 2011 3:53am

aus230 said...

current aus230 mini with changes

cheers
vic

[Your mini looks great Vic

landyacht

5921 posts

landyacht

WA, 5921 posts

5 Apr 2011 8:34pm

aus230 said...

What are you up to now Paul, give us a look

Cheers
Vic

Maybe like this

now thats a landyacht

Im not building anything.
at all
nothing
zip
nada
nyet

ish.
the yacht I was sailing on sunday just went past everything, so Im holding off till somebody wipes me, then experiment 108 can begin.
with the euros now watching over our shoulders for next years designsand improvements it wouldnt be too clever to show them what they should have built , instead of spending all those euros

kiwi307

488 posts

kiwi307

488 posts

10 Apr 2011 7:14am

As the originator of this thread, which has gone way off topic..
Where there is room for "interpretation" there will be room for argument.
As one of the committee who gave the world the current (and previous versions) of the Class 5 rule we worked VERY hard to take that opportunity away. eg "the yacht must pass between,,," to give the width, no argument, it fits or it doesn't. not 2005mm, just 2000mm.
Now the current Mini rule gives too many opportunities. I actually love the idea, just needs some refinement.
The current over tyres is an example. The intention may be for "cheap and cheerful" but I think it would be much easier to take some complying wheels with tyres and measure them. The OD of the largest INFLATED, is then taken as the maximum. Allow a bit of tolerance if you wish. By saying 4.00 by 8 wheels (remember that some countries take a different meaning of wheels, some places the rim is the "wheel", others it is the combined tyre/rim which is the "wheel") allows for problems. Here in NZ I can not find any 4.00 by 8! The vast majority of tyres are 4.00/4.50 by 8.
The string rule is another area for conflict. Yes building the yacht to be adjustable allows for complying, but not the "best" designers solution!
I also know it's meant to be "cheap and cheerful" so was the 5! Look what has evolved there.

Nikrum

TAS

1972 posts

Nikrum

TAS, 1972 posts

10 Apr 2011 10:11am

Looking at the contention over all I suppose that the Committees etc should just Take measurements and make them a Global Std i.e. Wheels- Defined as Rim and Tire Combined Maximum OA Height 400mm/16". Width and Rim size aren't not accountable.

The 5600 Rule does allow flexibility in length verses width but design common sense has to come in somewhere. I mean what advantage would there be in designing something with a rear wheels set 450mm Apart and a front wheel 3mtrs from the rear axle such a beast I would imagine would spend it's time on it's side or on it's Nose if the reverse were true. I would imagine also that the Designer of the LLF would have also taken into account the fact that a Pilot had to be able to fit onto the Damned thing anyway. The 5600 Rule appears to state Fit Within. One would imagine this to mean at Ground Contact points. If this is the case a LLF Mini would be measured including any part of the LLF that touches the ground and be inclusive of the entire patch. I think therefore one should state a particular type of rope (There are those out there that are near enough to zero Stretch) of not more than 5mm in dia. Said Rope should be Splices into a Loop who's Circumference is not greater than 5600mm. Said Rope should also be laid on a flat surface and the Machine sat within it, the rope loop to lay as it pleases. Any further disputes will be settled on the day by a Quorum of Club Officials.
Any argument will result in immediate disqualification from that event.

Are we going to take this thing down to the wire like some stupid parents taking sporting events into the realms of ridiculis
???
Ron

Take the rules as read and enjoy the sport. Discussion is a great thing but do we need to go around in ever decreasing circles?? We all know where that would finish up!

Gizmo

2865 posts

Gizmo

SA, 2865 posts

10 Apr 2011 9:58am

Just confirming the rope loop for the mini class is 5.6m (5600mm)

niaychi

97 posts

niaychi

97 posts

10 Apr 2011 10:27am

kiwi307 said...

As the originator of this thread, which has gone way off topic..
Where there is room for "interpretation" there will be room for argument.
As one of the committee who gave the world the current (and previous versions) of the Class 5 rule we worked VERY hard to take that opportunity away. eg "the yacht must pass between,,," to give the width, no argument, it fits or it doesn't. not 2005mm, just 2000mm.
Now the current Mini rule gives too many opportunities. I actually love the idea, just needs some refinement.
The current over tyres is an example. The intention may be for "cheap and cheerful" but I think it would be much easier to take some complying wheels with tyres and measure them. The OD of the largest INFLATED, is then taken as the maximum. Allow a bit of tolerance if you wish. By saying 4.00 by 8 wheels (remember that some countries take a different meaning of wheels, some places the rim is the "wheel", others it is the combined tyre/rim which is the "wheel") allows for problems. Here in NZ I can not find any 4.00 by 8! The vast majority of tyres are 4.00/4.50 by 8.
The string rule is another area for conflict. Yes building the yacht to be adjustable allows for complying, but not the "best" designers solution!
I also know it's meant to be "cheap and cheerful" so was the 5! Look what has evolved there.

why not have a max circumference of wheel/tyre at a max pressure say 35psi as i have located some scooter wheels same weight as 4.00 x 8 fitted with rib 2ply tyre ,but these rims are 10 inch and with new tyre same circumference as 4.00 x 8 combination

Hiko

1229 posts

Hiko

1229 posts

10 Apr 2011 12:00pm

The 2 ply ribbed tyres I have on my two minis are marked 4.80/4.00-8
whatever that means It does seem that a max diameter of wheel and minimum diameter of rope would solve a lot of controversy and angst
for those inclined and still keep the rule simple

Gizmo

2865 posts

Gizmo

SA, 2865 posts

10 Apr 2011 2:25pm

Maybe we are approaching the whole class rule from the wrong angle, maybe we should be trying to introduce a "Good Spirit Sportsmanship" Rule?

If people are struggling with this VERY basic rule..... you must really have difficulty in driving a car down the road.

Maybe we should think like they do for major sporting codes and drug testing, lets assume that the individual is guilty until they can prove otherwise.

niaychi

97 posts

niaychi

97 posts

10 Apr 2011 12:58pm

Hiko said...

The 2 ply ribbed tyres I have on my two minis are marked 4.80/4.00-8
whatever that means It does seem that a max diameter of wheel and minimum diameter of rope would solve a lot of controversy and angst
for those inclined and still keep the rule simple

point taken,but by using the circumference you can use any type of tyre and wheel and still be in the spirit of the rules it is only a suggestion,still cheap and cheerful

Gizmo

2865 posts

Gizmo

SA, 2865 posts

10 Apr 2011 3:09pm

But isn't the mini class supposed to be based on "wheelbarrow" type wheels?

kiwi307

488 posts

kiwi307

488 posts

10 Apr 2011 3:01pm

Gizmo said...

But isn't the mini class supposed to be based on "wheelbarrow" type wheels?

Brian, read my above re "wheels". Hey, and by the way I have no difficulty in driving a car on the road, nor on the race track where the rules are MUCH easier to work with!
Is a wheel the combination of wheel and tyre or is a wheel just the rim? I can assure you that both views exist in the English speaking world withput taking into account the other languages. Who is right? In any case few of the yachts shown have "wheelbarrow type" as they are for all sorts of activities.
Earlier there is a view "take into account the "spirit of the rule" Sorry, this has not been expounded nor expressed, and cheap and cheerful is not it! Most of the commercial yachts which fit the Mini rule certainly are not "cheap and cheerful" in my view they are almost the exact opposite, "expensive and self serving"!
Why circumference, diameter is very easy to measure, and a specified "rope size" for the 5600 loop is a good idea (hell I am agreeing with Ron, this is not good!)

Gizmo

2865 posts

Gizmo

SA, 2865 posts

10 Apr 2011 5:10pm

Do people actually struggle with .... Rim + Tyre = Wheel ?

This is BASIC schoolboy stuff that a 10y.o. could grasp, get real guys if you REALLY don't understand the rules please put you hands up!!!

Nikrum

TAS

1972 posts

Nikrum

TAS, 1972 posts

10 Apr 2011 6:41pm

Kiwi307 did mention different terminology from other countries.
This is why I mentioned Definition. One can either find Global names for a said part or try to find a single term that can be understood by all. I think if an OA Wheel Height in both Metric and Imperial + or - ?? would cover a multitude of sins after all we shouldn't get bogged down in Nit Picking.

Does it mater if I can afford Titanium Rims and custom made Kevlar tires. One would have to be a win at all costs merchant, Would they Not???

Ron

Gizmo

2865 posts

Gizmo

SA, 2865 posts

10 Apr 2011 6:29pm

Nikrum said...

Kiwi307 did mention different terminology from other countries.
This is why I mentioned Definition. One can either find Global names for a said part or try to find a single term that can be understood by all. I think if an OA Wheel Height in both Metric and Imperial + or - ?? would cover a multitude of sins after all we shouldn't get bogged down in Nit Picking.

Does it mater if I can afford Titanium Rims and custom made Kevlar tires. One would have to be a win at all costs merchant, Would they Not???

Ron

ONLY if you can show me the "Brickie" that uses those wheels on his wheel barrow!!!

Ron this is why the words "wheelbarrow type" must be left in the rules other wise people will be building high tech wheels. Its also more than JUST the overall Dia. its also tyre width and general weight and where its placed in the wheel.

It seems to me that people are wanting to push the rules to benefit themselves rather than the sport.
Please explain to me why a custom made wheel from carbon fibre and fancy alloy hub using a 16" bike tyres valued at more than $500 each will bring new people into the sport?
As I've said before if you want to sail high tech yachts build a Class5

Looking at the FISLY Class5 Promo they specify the wheels as "The wheel diameter of the PROMO is 400 x 8". The wheel rim shall be in moulded plastic or metal alloy." and people don't seem to have a problem with that so why do some people have such a problem with the Mini rules?

~~http://www.fisly.org/scripts/index.php?loc=rules&it=2~~

Gizmo

2865 posts

Gizmo

SA, 2865 posts

10 Apr 2011 6:33pm

Looking back through the threads on seabreeze in 2008 and then the small yacht class was "Class6" here is a copy posted on a thread and the reason for each rule... makes for interesting reading. Even then people were trying to push the limits and struggled the rules.

Referring to the original specs the design principle was simple…

1. Max width 1.8m
This was to enable small yachts to be easily transported and stored even the “Free flight” built yachts to fall into the class.
2. Max length of 2.25m
This was to level out some of the yachts, as many different wheels were tried from small sack truck size to 20” BMX bike wheels.(from the front of the front wheel to the back of the back wheel).
3. Max sail Area 4.25sqm
4.25 sqm was found to be safe and sufficient for learners, women & children
4. No moving seat
This was to simplify design and for safety
5. No covering OVER the pilot.
This to provide little chance of being trapped inside a yacht (as some fragile enclosed designs were starting to emerge on paper) like mini “sanderlings” again for safety
6. Round section mast only
Some fancy designs of wing masts were also being thought about which again would make the yacht design complex and going away from the original concept of class 6
7. NO sail fairings in or on the sail
The idea of a sail covered foam shape was also thought about thus going towards rigid sails.

kiwi307

488 posts

kiwi307

488 posts

10 Apr 2011 8:07pm

Gizmo said...

Do people actually struggle with .... Rim + Tyre = Wheel ?

This is BASIC schoolboy stuff that a 10y.o. could grasp, get real guys if you REALLY don't understand the rules please put you hands up!!!

Again, I have lived in a number of English speaking countries and I can assure you that your comment is NOT universal. In some (and I believe a minority), a wheel is precisely what you say, in others a wheel is the rim ONLY.

I see that you suggest that the rule means wheelbarrow type only. OK, so a Blokart would not conform, they are not wheelbarrow. Many places wheelbarrows do not have bearings in the wheel, it's on the frame.
4.00 by 8" wheels (using your terminology) is not a diameter, it's a tyre size, and that is all it is.
Remember that this forum is largely Australian based, just because it appears on here does not mean it's what the whole English speaking world knows.

Some examples of wheels already used, which, IMHO do not meet the rules as written include; the alloy 6" wheels which I used to buy from Adelaide and use aircraft tyres (like Rons). They are not wheelbarrow type, they are Superkart wheels and aircraft tyres, Seagull Silence uses their own manufacture wheels, so they should be defined as "Landyacht wheels"? Any form of bicycle wheel, never seen a wheelbarrow with them, then again I don't recollect ever seeing an alloy wheelbarrow wheel either, steel or plastic yes!

All I am asking is that any rules which are to be used should be well thought out at the formation stage so that when a person arrives at the venue all that remains is to sail, and enjoy it. Some of us have travelled vast distances with much expense, to then have a day of arguing about "what the rules say" and that has put more people off than anything else.
The Class 6 rules which you quote were the AUSTRALIAN version, similar but different to the English, French and NZ versions.
Please, do not be defensive, or offensive, or abusive, we can work to make this better, and in the same breath can make it easier for everyone to comply with.

Gizmo

2865 posts

Gizmo

SA, 2865 posts

10 Apr 2011 9:55pm

May I suggest you contact FISLY with your concerns and report back to the forum when you receive a reply. It's their rule and their wording.

Test pilot 1

1430 posts

Test pilot 1

WA, 1430 posts

10 Apr 2011 8:40pm

One could go to extremes. Do the rules say how many wheels you are allowed.
For example:- If you built a land yacht with four wheels in a diamond pattern such that at any one time only three wheels were ever grounded(e.g. front, rear and left, or front, rear and right depending on wind direction) then you could build a rather larger yacht than one would at first think!

[}:)]

landyacht

5921 posts

landyacht

WA, 5921 posts

10 Apr 2011 8:40pm

I was reading that 4.00x8 is a rim size as the fisly rule allow the use of fat tyres on that size rim..
keep in mind that bike wheels are measured by tyre diameter/rim width, automotive wheels are measured by rim width/rim diameter, even french ones

. personally I would be happy with an overall wheel diameter provided it wasnt increased to allow20" bike wheel sizes.
If this size were allowed then I think the carbon wars would get started, wheras by keeping to the smallerOD the yachts would would stay simpler. if the diameter was kept at 400-420mm it would allow 6" aircraft tyres, 16" bike wheels, 8" wheelbarrow wheels, 6"blokartwheels, 12"blokart front wheels, and the little 4"frontwheel that the newPLUME mini seems to be running.
Anybody who want to try out 16"bike tyres on the back of a mini , be my guest as they just dont give sufficient contact patch to hold the yacht in line

I think the rope rule has pretty much been explained and is sorted.
mind you its fisly that need convincing re the wheels.
strangely, I checked in the hardware store as to what size wheels "wheelbarrows use and the 5.50x8 accounted for more than half the barrows

Nikrum

TAS

1972 posts

Nikrum

TAS, 1972 posts

11 Apr 2011 12:16am

It would appear that something of a S--- Storm (No not Sand) is brewing over this wheel thing. If one would care to look at Wheel Barrow development you will probably remember barrows with 18" wheels built on Wagon Wheel Construction some in Wood and Some modified to Steel yet others with a solid rubber tire. I have seen them on the Fallshaw site of varying widths. My point in this whole shamozels was and is that the term "Wheel Barrow Wheel" is a very loose term and gives excessive scope in interpretation. No more no Less.

Paul himself said it all, FISLY allows for Fat tires as they fit an 8" x 4" Rim (or is that 4" x 8") and so do Big Foot Tires and they are monstrous in OD. Hence my thoughts on a Max' OD for Wheels + or - .5" as Tires can vary under various conditions i.e The difference between manufacturers. Do not read more than as read into my questions.
Ron
PS; Do not be Naive in this matter if a term is too loose it will be used against the 'INTENT' in the bid to win at any cost

aus230

1660 posts

aus230

WA, 1660 posts

10 Apr 2011 10:19pm

Guys have a look at the manufactures mini's, Not a lot of them are using wheel barrow wheels, Maybe they are 400mm outside diameter but are made out of all sorts of materials, So why restrict our home builds to wheel barrow wheels?
Cheers
aus230

IPKSA

177 posts

IPKSA

177 posts

11 Apr 2011 3:22am

IPKSA said...

The wheels !
Firstly , some clarity , there was a slight "lost in translation" and " lost in local terminology " in the written version of the rule and this will be clarified officialy next opportunity but everyone is complying with the original intent of the rule . ie, The max wheel size is actually intended as the the max TYRE size of 400x8. as commonly sold into Europe . This size is that of what is traditionally called a wheel barrow tyre in most countries.

The Wheel can be made of anything you like but a preference is for the plastic barrow type wheel to be used, so make em in titanium if you like but dont exceed the tyre size ! If the max of 400 x 8.00 tyre size is too big for you well then feel free to use smaller Blokart type size wheels and tyres or go smaller again if you like, just not bigger !.

It is planned that the rule will have the following added,

'The rope must lie on the ground. The touching part of the tyres on the ground must fit inside the rope '

Other proposal formulated at the FISLY meeting of 22.01.2011:
' wheel size is maximum 400x8' is to be changed to 'the tyre size' .

You can put whatever pressure you want into your tyres of up to this size and yes it will change the profile and foot print of the miniyacht but if it! fits inside that loop of rope 5.6m long on the ground its ok .

Remember that common sense should always prevail and the KISS approach is paramount to having fun.

All inclusive is the intent , get people out sailing and progressing is the intent and I take responsibility for the rule being so simple. I was the proposer of this rule to the FISLY council and one of the people who pushed for this recognition for miniyachts for years and years recognising that it is the way to introduce new people to the sport.
There are always minor language and local interpretation dificulties in any multi lingual and multi national organisations - hence the wee tweaks to the rule as outlined above.

Hope this helps and this debate is brilliant as it tells me the rule is a success and doing as I intended and hoped it would, as I said above.

Keep asking but do more telling others !

So go forth and KISS

Cheers

Alan ( now a FISLY Vice President !)

Great debate this - read the above again and see if you are any clearer. The tyre size ! I checked all of the miniyachts(8) types (4) and tyres near me , and a Promo and 6 Standarts and all of them have 4.80/4.00 - 8 marked on them , all of them are under 400mm diameter.

I checked over 20 rims also - all were between 220 and 230mm o/diameter and max of 80mm wide at the outside .

The rule doesn't say you have to use wheelbarrow wheels , it doesn't even mention wheelbarrows , it was me who said that the preference was for this style of wheel type. Same as the Class Standarts now use and those used by Promos.

Maybe there is merit in suggesting for example a 10mm diametre rope for the 5.6m loop.

The maximum tyre size in the rule already has a diameter of just less than 400mm from those I checked , so maybe a max diameter could be added too. But I dont see that in either the Promo or Standart rules - just the tyre size.

Alan

kiwi307

488 posts

kiwi307

488 posts

11 Apr 2011 4:37am

Question for Alan!
You quote the 400 by 8" tyre size. My question then is; is this a diameter, in which case don't include the 8", or is it a tyre size in which case there are places where the tyre size is "multi sized" ie 4.00/4.50 or 4.00/4.80 thus making a question mark over whether these tyres would be "legal".
I am glad that the "wheelbarrow" issue has been cleared totally as it has bugged me for interpretation all along that it has crept into the crypt and ...

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