Saffer said...

Every brand has had their fair share of problems. Cabrinha's had major bladder problems in 2001 and then the dreaded burst leading edge problems in 2008 or 2009. They also had some line wear issues when the IDS came out.

Slingshot is also not without its issues as can be seen from the Octane stability issues.

Other brands are not immune either, almost every brand I know of has had some issues at one point or another.

I'm actually starting to think that the 2 year cycle makes that much more sense and there is some method to Core's logic (I'm not punting Core, I ride slingshot and takoon). I think companies rush the products to market and don't get enough opportunity to try the products in a variety of conditions. I also think the biggest issue is that the test riders are normally pro's who ride their gear in a particular way, they may not sheet as much as the average rider who may be why line wear issues on bars are not picked up. Sure, there are some issues that aren't picked up until production happens, but to have the same bladder problems year after year is poor form. Surely you can identify what conditions the problems exist in and test in those conditions in future? Its not rocket science is it!

Yeah thats true all brands have had some sort of issue, however what is also true is that many of them took full responsibility for the issues and fixed the kites with excellent warranty and service. They rectified the problems and they no longer have these problems.

This industry must move to a 2 year production cycle or we are all going to continue to be treated as guinea pigs each year.

You have to be f#%king kidding!? You're going to drop several grand on new kites that you expect to have a serious problem!? My sympathy just fell to zero.

Would you buy a car that you knew had faulty brakes just because you thought the seats were comfy?

Do you have a written agreement from North stating that if a valve falls off in the first season they'll buy back all your kites at full price? If not, wtf are you thinking?

Core are bringing out a 17m XR and the GTS goes up to 15m and should easily match the rebel for grunt, turning speed and relaunch. The big Crossbows have massive grunt, the new Best Taboo comes in big sizes, so it's not just Zephyr or Rebel.

But hey, if you really want to waste your time and money then go ahead, and as ever, I'm happy to accept spare money from folk who have too much and don't know what to do with it. Just pm me and I'll get details to you for a direct deposit.

Gees, this thread still going!

I have replaced around a dozen valves, mostly from 08 and 09 kites which were shipped down to me from Broome. Other than that, I don't think I have had to fix any late model North kites in Perth region at all. I have heard of a few people having to replace valves on older North kites, but the same can be said for MOST brands.

North have definately had a bit of an issue with their kites in the hottest parts of our country where high temperatures and humidity seem to be the likely cause of the valve failures. This being the case, it seems impressive (or crazy?) that the local riders (in Darwin at least) have continued to purchase North products time and again despite problems with previous models. Surely this says something about the kites performance and overall useability.

It is my understanding that the North representative in Australia contacted one of, or several persons in Darwin whom are subject to these problems, and they have reached an amicable fix for the situation. (Please, am happy to be corrected)

In my dealings with North, they have not shyed away from any legitimate warranty claim on kites, or boards, and in fact have usually come back usually within 24hrs and ok'd a fix or replacement even on some older kites out of warranty. The service has been very professional.

I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about. If you have a problem with your kite (of any brand), your first call should be to the retailer you bought it from. They will then take up the situation with the importer or manufacturer.

All our brands have been excellent in their treatment of warranty and customer service. If there is a claim which is refused, AKS has helped in sorting out any isses above and beyond Warranty as my customers will attest. On behalf of my customers and myself, I thank Airush, Core, North and Ozone for top service.

As much as it may make you feel better and may even seem to be fun at the time, bashing a brand on the net, it's only appropriate so long as.... , if you received excellent service or attention, a great deal, or appropriate rectification of an issue with your kite or board, whatever brand, then you should also post this on the net so we do not get a distorted image of any one particular company.

<adorns flame retardent suit>


DM

Wow, I was going to get an 8 meter Rebel for my fiance (she had lessons on them and loved it compared to my Ozone), but after this I think I will get her an 8 meter Switchy.

Had a 12m 2007 Swtichblade for 3 seasons. Left it in my car in the Sydney heat (it is neccessary for me to kite after work) every day and never had a problem once (albeit me ripping the f**ker. Same with a 9m 2007 Crossbow.

On the contrary, bought a 2007 slingshot link (second hand) and every valve went within a month. No problem with my Rev 2 though.

They may fly better, but quality of build is an important factor for me. If I got down in a seabreeze and it turned out that I couldn't kite because of a stupid manufacturers fault I would probably have to go into a mental home for life.

Cheers,
Tom

Well I'm not satisfied .... It's Breaking my heart seeing you lot sitting on the beach fixin valves while I'm out there thinking that I'm guna have to console you all againonce I get in !

... Ben, you so funny!!

Thanks Steve, all kites repaired and going good so far! Cheers!

You know what, the relief one feels to find out that the 2011's have new valves and new bladders, its wonderful. Now, if the kite goes down, its because I did it, not the kites fault. Yep, the outlook is looking good!

Puetz said...

... Kiteforum has some guys with valves problems to, check it out:

kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2365032&start=0&hilit=cking+north

Info below was taken from one of the posters who sounds like he's in the know:


Valves falling off is so annoying, I can sympathise with anyone who has experienced this.

I think every brand can hold their hands up and say they have had valve problems at some point: I have heard stories about al brands. Here's what goes wrong...

The valves are stuck to the bladders using Ultrasound Welding (sometimes called RF Welding). The Ultrasound energy excites the surface molecules on the two bits of plastic being welded and they vibrate which causes heat. The plastics melt and they stick together. The technology is used in a huge range of applications including welding the two halves of a washing machine drum together so the resulting weld can be as strong as the material(s) itself.

Now here's the problem with valves on bladders... Ultrasound Welding only works with thermoplast plastics and not thermoset plastics... (an example of a thermoset is the plastic used to make domestic electrical plugs - they won't melt wehen they get warm, but eventually burn [oh and the UK plug is the best in the world, no arguments ] a thermoplast will melt and then set again when it cools) The bladder is a thermoplast but the valves are often thermosets so a small disk of thermoplast is put between the valve and the bladder... this is what melts and glues the two together. When Flexi experienced a problem, it was because the factory used the wrong type of plastic disc... one that melted again at 40degC So, as well as sending loads of replacement bladders out, Flexi put in a control at the factory whereby at the start of every batch of bladders, a test bladder is made and then baked in an oven at 120degC and the valve is then checked for adhesion.

That's not the whole story, I believe... I think something called process variation also plays a part. There are various parameters that can effect the adhesion of valve to bladder... the energy intensity setting on the Ultrasound Welder, the dwell time (how long that energy is applied for) and several other environmental factors. All these need to be controlled to get a consistent result... it is not possible to bake every single bladder to 120degC and between checks, there is a possibility that some process parameters could change and cause a poor adherence. Some factories (and I do not just mean Chinese factories, I have seen this in many factories in and out of the kite industry) are not always good at process control... i.e. making sure all significant parameters are kept under control and within predetermined limits. Improving that is not space age solutions, it is widely used manufacturing technology but it does require someone do some work!

The other option is double sided tape... Airtime use this. It is a good idea, although much more expensive I believe (and judging by the cost of one U-Stick valve!) I've seen double sided tapes that are used to stick the badges on the back of cars and they are not easy to pull off. There are thousands of types of tape out there but it is definitely more cost than a small plastic disc and a Ultrasound welder!

And if this little ramble helps some other brands (I'm sure they all know what they're doing) then good, having valves fall off within 2 years of buying a kite sucks!

Geoff of Funsupply posted this

"For 2011 They have changed the following:
Supplier of raw bladder material
Moved production from China to Sri Lanka to a manufacture who is working with the European Automotive industry.
Changed glues.
Changed cleaning process prior to gluing.
Tested the new system in an oven with a bowl of water underneath to create maximum humidity.
There have been no 2011 failures so far"

The first quote is the truth about the cause of the issue, and it did not just affect one brand, there were obviously several brands using this one manufacturer, or using that faulty method. It aslo seems like the problems have been dealt with the various brands affected by the issue, differently/better, in some countries/areas than others.
I think its pretty obvious North are now onto the problem and there is no need to keep blasting the brand over it. If you have a problem with any kite, as Kitehard said, go see your dealer.

Also the last part of the North behind the scenes video clearly shows they are making their own bladders in their own factory in Sri Lanka. Its easy to see North have invested in some top quality machinery to make their own bladders now.

MrHollywood said...

You are spot on Kitepower, it appears that North are finally doing something towards addressing this problem.

Your advice on going to the dealer if you have any problems with a kite is 100%correct too.

We, in the NT, have been going to our dealer with these problems for years and to his absolute credit he has bent over backwards for us, in spite of him having the same issues with his own personal and training kites. And, as such, North have been aware of the problem for years too.

It interesting that despite knowing about the issues for years, it is only when they were exposed on the forums that North has been motivated to address the issues with some (hopefully) positive responses.

I agree, give credit where it is due (I think their kites are good), but give them a smack them if they are slack.

Can't wait to see how the next six months with the 2011 kites unfolds.

... like I said, I'm feeling much more positve now!! Not worrying about the valves coming off is really comforting, now north reallly will have a super product!

Hey Eddy, no gun, just the confirmation that they have improved the valves has calmed me very well indeed.

AKSonline said...

Gees, this thread still going!



It is my understanding that the North representative in Australia contacted one of, or several persons in Darwin whom are subject to these problems, and they have reached an amicable fix for the situation. (Please, am happy to be corrected)



<adorns flame retardent suit>


DM

... do you know who contacted who, pm if you like?

LA LA LA!!!!

pkaras1 said...

Puetz said...

pkaras1 said...

hey everyone and sorry that you all passed from the same valve leaking problem by north, just like me, I searched on the net about bladder durability in north and guess what forum popped up. long story short my evo 09 9m was the first to go but that was ok because I could de-power my rhino 09 12m to get my fix that day. and no I didn't get my fix. both kites failed, epic fail. I wanted to just rip them apart. luckily I kept my calm and now I am steering away from north, selling whatever I have from this company, its a shame as well, damn good flying machines with a short expiry date. these kites should be at least half price and warn the rider of an imminent valve failure. you are not alone out there fellow north rider.

... thats the crux of the matter, great kites but the valves let them down. The anger you feel when you miss a session or worse, a fail mid session and you either have to self rescue or do the walk of shame!!!! Sorry for my ingnorance, but does Greece have tropical type of weather (hot and humid)?

cheers,

Robbie

i couldn't put Cyprus on my profile since its not listed but Limassol city reaches 100% humidity at night and around 75% during the day on most summer days avg temp 37 mid day, kite session hours 1200 till 1900. this factor shouldn't be a problem since i know a friend of mine that uses an eclipse nano constantly (his only kite) the 2008 model, stores it in the back of the car roasting over 45 celsius under the sun for 3 summers now, and apart from a faded color it has nil valve problems or valve deterioration. if others can do it why the hell not North.

i am a bit optimistic for 2011 though, my 2009 rhino was under warranty so free replacements, sadly my 2009 evo was bought earlier and presented THE problem later on... (300 euro worth of replacement parts). i can hang on with a 12m and a 9m until next summer season for 2011 kites, i may only buy one after a very close inspection on the bladders and valves on a kite that has been used occasionally since their release date. my temporary fix until replacements are in hand is, super glue. a fix on my rhino valves lasted more than 3 weeks now, still air tight.

amateur method: find the air pocket that leaks, peel off the valve by 1-2mm to expose the pocket, then using the long needle part of the glue force glue to follow and eventually fill the air pocket but not too much to spill inside the bladder. place a little at the peeled part of the valve and leave overnight. next day the pocket is filled with hard glue and the bladder with the valve are one. i dont think this glue destroys the plastic like some say, but it is rock hard.

here are some pictures of my rhino 12m bladders that leaked and now are fixed fixed:


one perfect valve:


my advice wait before buying any north until you can check for yourselves how they hold the pressure after a few months, or force the problem to appear when warranty nears expiry. warranty is easy, pictures of bad valves and serial number of kite. send to your dealer, north doesn't do warranty claims directly with customer, too busy making money i guess.

have fun everyone and be safe

hey Pkaras1,

I used to do the same method of repair except the glue I used was pool and vinyl repair glue or sometimes I used the glue that comes in the little repair kit with the kite. The problem with that is another vain will track its way in the valve again and you end up doing it again. Once, in desperation, and I didn't want to miss another session, with a wet kite, 30 knots blowing around me, I shoved glue in the valve and stuffed the bladder back in and pumped up straight away, then went kiting. No drying time, amazingly it worked! I guess the air pressure squeezed the glue into all the small cracks!!

Last weekend a friend pulled out a 9m 2003 Cabrinha Black Tip he had stored in a shed for a few years, proberly gets to 40 or 50 degrees C some days and he pumped it up for a laugh. First day day, it stayed up but on the second day he took it for a fly and one of the struts went down! Not bad for a 7 or so year old kite!!!

Cheers for now,

Robbie

Puetz said...

hey Pkaras1,

I used to do the same method of repair except the glue I used was pool and vinyl repair glue or sometimes I used the glue that comes in the little repair kit with the kite. The problem with that is another vain will track its way in the valve again and you end up doing it again. Once, in desperation, and I didn't want to miss another session, with a wet kite, 30 knots blowing around me, I shoved glue in the valve and stuffed the bladder back in and pumped up straight away, then went kiting. No drying time, amazingly it worked! I guess the air pressure squeezed the glue into all the small cracks!!

Last weekend a friend pulled out a 9m 2003 Cabrinha Black Tip he had stored in a shed for a few years, proberly gets to 40 or 50 degrees C some days and he pumped it up for a laugh. First day day, it stayed up but on the second day he took it for a fly and one of the struts went down! Not bad for a 7 or so year old kite!!!

Cheers for now,

Robbie

the method highlighted above is very interesting and i wanted to try it, the only problem is getting the glue at the centre of the valve through the valve, covering all the gaps and peeled parts on the bladder where the vain is wider. did you use a long needle extension on the glue, it would be great finding a pointy L shaped extension that can enter through the valve and place glue where necessary. i cannot imagine another air pocket will ever appear after a fix like this:



cheers,
Panayiotis

ps: air pressure still holds after a 5 hour session today. checked the valves without any signs of leaking, maybe since the humid dropped from 75% to 15%

never had to fix a north valve and how stupid are some people just open up the end of the bladder get the iron hot and weld your old valve back down come on youse youre common dog f$%k you fools

rhinoman said...

never had to fix a north valve and how stupid are some people just open up the end of the bladder get the iron hot and weld your old valve back down come on youse youre common dog f$%k you fools

won't work for me. has something to do with the different temperatures required for welding the two different plastics.

Aquaseal (with cotol) is ultimate for valve repairs.

Hm. Was about to buy a North Rebel after almost wearing-out, from new, 2x Cabrinha switchblade 08s. Now I won't. I'm just glad i did a quick Google search to see what the word on the beach was. There seems to be too much negative feedback about North. My switchies have been flawless and I think I've taken that for granted.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I hope things improve for all affected. I, sure as ****, wouldn't want to put up with such gear woes.
Ta.