Just saw Qantas' new slogan:

There is no "U" in QANTAS

Very appropriate

Mobydisc said...


The main reasons QANTAS has a good safety record in Australia is the comparative emptiness of Australian skies and the clear weather we usually have. There is nothing intrinsicly safe about QANTAS as an airline.

I was told once by Qantas groundcrew person that the reason Qantas has a good safety record is cultural If something unsafe is seen the groundstaff are not frightened to speak up about it to anyone
Alan Joyce seems an interesting choice for CEO of Qantas to me

sandrhino said...
I know something about how unions work and I will tell you now that action by a union official is impossible without its members voting for it.

You might know how Unions work, but have you ever been at a meeting that calls for a strike? ...... sheeple (my personal view)

On the 2 occasions I was in on union strike meetings many years apart, the feeling from union members was we are going to "bully" the employers into the demands. It also seemed a bit of a novelty and a bit exciting for the members.
It was pointed out to the union members several weeks into the strike that they have lost more in those weeks than their original claim was for. The Union officials were egging the strike to continue but they would as they were getting paid.
Strikes do damage to business that will never heal, its almost like the company had lost its innocence. The animosity lasted for years between staff members and staff / management. It's also interesting to think back on those incidents, the staff that were staunch union members involved in those strikes never really progressed that much further in the company.

log man said...
So people acting together = "sheeple". Ok then, give back all the things that those "sheeple" fought for years ago . Ya know the "sheeple that brought you the weekend, the eight hour day, minimum wage etc,etc. Do you think these things just materialized out of thin air?

I'm not dissing unions in some of the things they have achieved but at times they go a bit overboard.
Over the years I just have seen Unions destroy communities with often union fighting union, I grew up in a town that had many powerful unions active, Meat workers, Transport, Painters & Dockers, Wharfies, and literally there was a strike by someone in town every month in the 70's.
The Unions often lost sight that they were ALL interrelated as they were all involved in the chain of processing, transporting and exporting of meat. One break in the chain caused a domino effect.
I often wonder about the current live cattle / sheep trade, is it like this to minimise some of the links that previously caused problems.

Its not a union strike, its a management strike.

log man said...
So people acting together = "sheeple". Ok then, give back all the things that those "sheeple" fought for years ago . Ya know the "sheeple that brought you the weekend, the eight hour day, minimum wage etc,etc. Do you think these things just materialized out of thin air?

OMG Loggy, you actually posted something that made sense!

Can anyone list what the Unions want?
What's the backstory? I have no idea and can't see anything in the paper. I live in a bubble sometimes (and I spend more hours on a plane than I do watching TV/irony).

Maybe Unions are dying? Memberships are at like 15%. Times are changing; flexibility is key. It's a global economy and marketplace.

I know I'm not in an normal situation, but myself and everyone I've worked with for the last ten years has been on a contract something like $x/day for n months. That's it.

No lunch break. No holidays. No sick pay. No super. No long service. Nothing.

I'm totally used to it and I have absolutely no idea where I'll be working in a few month time. Is this the future for everyone?

SomeOtherGuy said...

evlPanda said...

Can anyone list what the Unions want?
What's the backstory? I have no idea and can't see anything in the paper. I live in a bubble sometimes (and I spend more hours on a plane than I do watching TV/irony).

Maybe Unions are dying? Memberships are at like 15%. Times are changing; flexibility is key. It's a global economy and marketplace.

I know I'm not in an normal situation, but myself and everyone I've worked with for the last ten years has been on a contract something like $x/day for n months. That's it.

No lunch break. No holidays. No sick pay. No super. No long service. Nothing.

I'm totally used to it and I have absolutely no idea where I'll be working in a few month time. Is this the future for everyone?

There are 3 unions involved - long haul pilots, engineers and baggage handlers. All were asking pay increases of 2-3%

The pilots and engineers were also looking for assurances of job security - eg the pilots wanted agreement that Qantas planes would only be staffed by Qantas pilots. For the engineers and pilots this has been the main sticking point. In fact, the engineers claim they had agreement from Qantas for their pay increase so this would have been the only sticking point.

I was like you panda. Did it for 15 years! Eventually the work dried up and I got a proper job. FOUR WEEKS paid holidays that I could plan months in advance and not have to worry about whether I'd get work at the end ... that was bliss!

Mind you, my pay increases haven't exactly kept up with CPI since. I think it's time I got a new job.

You are quite right. This is not about money or wages. Qantas employees are well looked after in that regard and I believe the wage increases have already been agreed to.

It is about the right of the Qantas board and management to run the company how they see fit. Qantas Engineers and Pilots are concerned thay may not agree with management decisions down the track and so are striking now to force agreements that will ensure there is no pressure on thier salaries or jobs in the future.

It is a bit like you blackmailing yoru boss to agree in writing that your job will be there no matter what and that they won't go and find someone more efficient and cost effective. Even the Government won't go quite that far.

There has been some pretty strong comments about Alan Joyce but none seem to be overly informed. I suspect if you check Alan Joyces total package he is probably paid less than his counterparts and was certainly paid significanlty less than is peers prior to the recent increase. To complain about the amount is stupid. You might as well complain that Qantas pilots are paid up to $500k a year in salary and "perks" and compare it to a baggage handlers package.

And if anyone did the sums on Flysurfers figures you will get a profitability of under 3% for the company. That is woefull. It was 3-4 times that 10 years ago. Plus the international operations actually operate at a loss.

I am as concerned about airline safety as anyone. But I am a hell of a lot more concerned when unions are allowed to disrupt a company and the public to this extent for purely the right to interfere/influence the decisions of management and boards on how best to run the company.

Let the unions stick to pay and conditions for workers and leave the running of companies to those who actually have the best interest of the company in mind.

Paradox said

"I am as concerned about airline safety as anyone. But I am a hell of a lot more concerned when unions are allowed to disrupt a company and the public to this extent for purely the right to interfere/influence the decisions of management and boards on how best to run the company.

Let the unions stick to pay and conditions for workers and leave the running of companies to those who actually have the best interest of the company in mind."



So how do they progress their claims when you butt heads with a company hell bent on "Asianising" their workforces conditions and sending the jobs off-shore ??

I haven't heard of any good outcomes by rolling over and getting your belly tickled by management and I note you say "best interest of the company in mind". What about taking a wider view and include the other stakeholders ??

It's a watershed moment in IR history I think !! If Qantas can do it (don't forget some of the board came out of Rio Tinto so have a bit of experience in this sort of thing) watch the queue grow to get foreign workers on all those fancy "work visas" from countries with lower wages and worse conditions.....

FlySurfer said...

log man said...
So people acting together = "sheeple". Ok then, give back all the things that those "sheeple" fought for years ago . Ya know the "sheeple that brought you the weekend, the eight hour day, minimum wage etc,etc. Do you think these things just materialized out of thin air?

OMG Loggy, you actually posted something that made sense!

FL, I hate it when you agree with me. I just feel dirty!

Paradox said...

Gunna1 said...
Because the peanuts running a lot of these companies have a very narrow, short term view, as they are only in these jobs for 3 - 4 years, they cut costs (read - jobs), bring in cheap labour, go overseas to reduce costs then move on to another high paid position, showing the previous toe cutting on the resume'. They don't really need or want to have the long term prosperity of the company or country, in mind. Qantas's worldwide, enviable, safety record didn't come about by chance. It was built by previous, generally aussie workers. I, for one are quite happy to pay a few bucks more when I fly knowing I have a bit of confidence in the company.
Qantas is by no means the first aussie company to sell out overseas and it won't be the last unfortunately. When the current Governments get their way and Oz is reduced to 3rd world living conditions we can all look back and say, "how did that happen", because once we sell all our natural resources the only way is down and we will have no AUSSIE companies left.

Well, unfortunately Australia's prosperity is tightly aligned with the international community you are afraid of. What people don't realise is that Australia's dollar and extremely high wages and standard of living is currently paid for by that very same international community. On it's own Australia's standard of living would be a pale shadow of what we enjoy today and "Aussie Companies" would not be worth a pich of the proverbial if not for the yellow, silver and black stuff we sell.

Not that Qantas is really an Aussie owned company anyway. That notion is an emotional one, not a real one.

Our productivity is falling and our manufacturing industry is tiny due to high cost of wages/end product. Companies like Qantas, Bonds and many more must compete internationally or die, and if they have to shift offshore to compete then so be it. Forcing them to operate in just the Australian labour market will benefit no one. We live in an open international market these days. You can force a company to pay high wages and include protectionism clauses for a while, but eventually those conditions will kill the company and the very jobs and wages it was supposed to protect will still go to the lower cost base anyway via another company filling the void.

Companies must adapt or die. Strong companies create jobs, weak ones do not.

Can't disagree but tell me this:

Once we have shipped all of our jobs offshore in manufacturing and services what do we do?

Can we all work for the Mines, Government, Tourism, Hospitality or in Import and Marketing?

Not being divisive but seriously I understand being globally competitive what I just don't understand is what happens to an economy when it no longer produces anything and our labor force is reduced.

Who pays the taxes?

What happens when the resource boom ends?

Are we suffering Dutch Disease?

If we don't protect our jobs now what happens later? Should we just give in now and send it all to Asia?

I don't know the answers but your response seems pretty informed, can you give us some guidance on what happens next??

CMC said...
Once we have shipped all of our jobs offshore in manufacturing and services what do we do?

Wait for inflation to work in the countries that have all the jobs, so that the cost of manufacturing there becomes the same as here, then we become competitive again.

Or, we invent new products and services, perfect existing ones, or create greater efficiencies that allow us to compete with the other humans.

As for manufacturing here: Go into Bunnings or browse eBay for say a BBQ or outdoor dining set. There's just no way we can build one here, ship it, market it, and sell it for a profit, for those prices. This has kept our inflation low by the way. Australia has a minimum wage of what, $16/hr? And everything here is expensive. We just can't compete in those sectors.

IT might be where it's at for the next 50 years. Will be interesting to see what the NBN can provide as a platform.

We have an advantage right now of a lot of resources, and risk Dutch Disease a little from it.

CMC said...

Can't disagree but tell me this:

Once we have shipped all of our jobs offshore in manufacturing and services what do we do?

Can we all work for the Mines, Government, Tourism, Hospitality or in Import and Marketing?

Not being divisive but seriously I understand being globally competitive what I just don't understand is what happens to an economy when it no longer produces anything and our labor force is reduced.

Who pays the taxes?

What happens when the resource boom ends?

Are we suffering Dutch Disease?

If we don't protect our jobs now what happens later? Should we just give in now and send it all to Asia?

I don't know the answers but your response seems pretty informed, can you give us some guidance on what happens next??

Great post CMC. I like people who ask questions. They tend to be the sharpest tools in the shed.

The reality we face is that right now Australian Labour costs about 30% or more than an equivilent US worker - across the board. Thats the US, not China....we are uncompetative. Hopefully that will ease over time with the FX rate as the global economy improves.

Answers are not always simple, and I certainly am not an expert in the field so can only give my limited opinion, but it is not all doom and gloom, we just need to be prepared to adapt and change with the world. Change is slow, we just need to move with it. Failure to see the writing on the wall will catch us with our pants down.

Australia needs to find it's niche. We will never be a manufacturing hub, but will always need some level of manufacturing and industry. Whilst some (not all) jobs are certainly lost when companies like Qantas and Bonds etc go offshore, there are always other opportunities to replace them. It's a little like the concern about robotics and automation in the 70's/80's. Factory jobs were lost to thier efficiency. But many more opened up in other areas.

My advice would be to ensure we educate, train and upskill our kids (and ourselves) and be prepared to think/move globally. Australians have a name for premium quality in many areas and are in high demand internationally in specialist fields and as supervisors in many more routine fields. Some that come mind are Mining, Construction, Professional services, Research/Technology, Medical/health, Higher tech trades, even our military troops are regarded as high level specialists. I'd even mention our pilots are elite (hence our problem being discussed). There are many more I am sure.

We will never compete against the emerging world with base labour skills, so we need to focus on providing the pointy end of the stick. For example (speculation of course) if Qantas moves it's International HQ to Malaysia, I suspect that will allow it to grow massively into the Asian and other global Markets. Australian Engineers with them currently will still maintain the domestic operations, but may also have significant opportinuities to live and work in Malaysia to train and supervise workforces in a much larger international Qantas fleet.

Also - don't forget Australia is a very small population of the world. We don't have to grab much of the international markets of any field to saturate our capabilities.

BulldogPup said...

You've got to feel for those folks stuck in airports - joyce you are a disgrace , your resignation will be welcomed (after those stranded people are rescued) by most aussies.

It's not all bad. Our flight to Sydney from Honolulu was cancelled on Sunday and we have to wait until Tuesday the 2nd (Hawaii time) for a flight home. In the meantime Qantas are picking up the tab for meals and accomodation.

So basically we are getting a free extra holiday in Hawaii courtesy of Qantas

Paradox said...
Great post. I like people who ask questions. They tend to be the sharpest tools in the

You think so ?