This is an interesting idea for the range issue.
Solar powered
Definitely won't be the car for F150 driving type
aptera.us/vehicle/
Select to expand quoteIan K said..
Overhead lines to be used with pantographs have to be set at a a height a metre or so higher than the max allowable height of a truck. This makes it a bit hard to get power all the way down to private transportation vehicles, the pantograph would be too long and spindly. Maybe hold the cable from the vehicle up to the overhead wires with a smart self-tracking drone?
...
Or have a Conga line of teslas hooked in behind the trucks, precision slipstreaming on auto pilot, plugged in nose to tail.
Maybe we need to repurpose rail lines between cities and towns? Drive your EV around the local area, and then drive onto the rail line to head to the next town. The car drives itself along the rail line and recharges at the same time?
Lucky for us that petrol is cheap and we don't need to do this though.
Imagine a world where we would shift our freight to electric powered trains between areas? 
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..Macroscien said..
Let's do some sums how much copper cable we could do for equivalent of those submarines? 160 bln dollars worth?
I am guessing that will be enough to make extension cord to the Moon and back.
I'll take your bet.
Hey Macro,
ABC news today talks about Transgrid's new powerline from Mildura to Buronga.
900km for $1.8bln with capacity equal to about 8% of NSW demand.
www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-14/energyconnect-eastern-section-granted-government-approval/101437764
Wagga to SA would be fairly flat, clear farm land I'd guess for most of the way, so probably relatively easy building of towers and corridors, but if we say that project provides something of an average cost and then we take the $160bln, we find that instead of getting to the moon and back we'd get :
900km/1.8bln*160bln = 80,000km
It's a little under 400,000km to the moon so that $160bln for the subs would do about 10% of the moon and back.
I am therefore claiming I won the bet. What was the wager and how much do you owe me ?
So if we wanted to build a powerline to get power from WA to NSW to power all of NSW when it was sunny in WA and dark in NSW, then you'd be looking at about :
say 4,000km Perth to Sydney, $1.8bln/900km*4000km/8% average demand*100% average demand = $100 bln, give or take.
..and if you wanted to be able to power Victoria and Qld as well then you'd be looking at say 20 million people not 8 million so somewhere up around $250bln plus or minus a few tens of billions, assuming you could find a straight line route devoid of too many hills, rivers, towns, rare flora or objectionable locals.
So that's somewhere around absolute minimum of $250 bln to interconnect the east and west of Australia with a power cable (ignoring the middle SA & NT) good enough to meet average demand, melts any day demand is above average. You want to do that on a global scale ?
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..Carantoc said..Macroscien said..
Let's do some sums how much copper cable we could do for equivalent of those submarines? 160 bln dollars worth?
I am guessing that will be enough to make extension cord to the Moon and back.
I'll take your bet.
Hey Macro,
ABC news today talks about Transgrid's new powerline from Mildura to Buronga.
900km for $1.8bln with capacity equal to about 8% of NSW demand.
www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-14/energyconnect-eastern-section-granted-government-approval/101437764
Wagga to SA would be fairly flat, clear farm land I'd guess for most of the way, so probably relatively easy building of towers and corridors, but if we say that project provides something of an average cost and then we take the $160bln, we find that instead of getting to the moon and back we'd get :
900km/1.8bln*160bln = 80,000km
It's a little under 400,000km to the moon so that $160bln for the subs would do about 10% of the moon and back.
I am therefore claiming I won the bet. What was the wager and how much do you owe me ?
So if we wanted to build a powerline to get power from WA to NSW to power all of NSW when it was sunny in WA and dark in NSW, then you'd be looking at about :
say 4,000km Perth to Sydney, $1.8bln/900km*4000km/8% average demand*100% average demand = $100 bln, give or take.
..and if you wanted to be able to power Victoria and Qld as well then you'd be looking at say 20 million people not 8 million so somewhere up around $250bln plus or minus a few tens of billions, assuming you could find a straight line route devoid of too many hills, rivers, towns, rare flora or objectionable locals.
So that's somewhere around absolute minimum of $250 bln to interconnect the east and west of Australia with a power cable (ignoring the middle SA & NT) good enough to meet average demand, melts any day demand is above average. You want to do that on a global scale ?
Yes , We are famous in the world to have the things at the higher costs possible ( and not delivered at the end) .Provided quotation for power line in Australia doesn't make any sense.
If you have to pay for land to landowners any amount is not enough and cheaper is fly to the Moon, and land there then here at outback.
Beside what our government is attempting to build is obsolete already,
Lets clafigy:
1> For transmission line to be compatible with green power and spanning whole continent we need HVDC line. ( Hugh Voltage Direct Current) not traditional AC. One of main reasons is problem with synchro nation 50Hz power devices, loss on long distance and many other factors that prevent AC from being used in global transmission network.
2> We need to dig cables underground not ugly pylons. Digging few meters tunnel should not be as much expensive as some may ask for . In normal world you advertise reverse auction and the cheapest bidder wins. But that means that China again could wind the contract to lay cables here, because we don't know how to make it cheap,
Unless obviously you ask our billionaires magnates and they will be able to do it for you.
3>Then we need to smelt our copper iron here and make cables on our own. But we need to build a plant and industry to make such cables. Possibly that could be the best business opportunity ever - to make underground quality DC cables. But require billions of dollars in investment first. I am sure that good plant to make cables cost less then $150 bln nuclear sub anyway.
There comes my latest invention when it comes to uneground cables. There is limit how much power you could send by cable in the ground due to heat and limited absorption by soil. So let's provide cooling by liquid nitrogen and we should be able to send 10x power by same underground cable. In the future the problem will be resolved by using superconducting cables. They don't generate heat at all. That is another example that we should plan our national transmission grid already on DC not AC. To be ready for superconductors. They work only on Direct current and we don't need to replace all stations if have DC in place already.
What They Aren't Telling People About EeeeeeeVeeeeeees - EPautos - Libertarian Car Talk (ericpetersautos.com)
Select to expand quotePcdefender said..
What They Aren't Telling People About EeeeeeeVeeeeeees - EPautos - Libertarian Car Talk (ericpetersautos.com)
In which country do you live, Aus or Usa???
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..
3>Then we need to smelt our copper iron here and make cables on our own. But we need to build a plant and industry to make such cables. Possibly that could be the best business opportunity ever - to make underground quality DC cables. But require billions of dollars in investment first. I am sure that good plant to make cables cost less then $150 bln nuclear sub anyway
On due consideration....I will not take that bet.
If you just send what you owe me now, maybe we can double or quits later.
For starters there is already more than one copper and / or iron 'smelter' in Australia and second an electric cable plant would indeed probably cost less than $150 bln to build.
Is that how you propose to power the subs ? - not a standalone self-sufficient on-board nuclear reactor, but have them tow around giant extension cables (DC of course) ?
Not sure that is the greatest military strategy there has ever been. Not even the Ruskis are going that desperate.
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..Macroscien said..
3>Then we need to smelt our copper iron here and make cables on our own. But we need to build a plant and industry to make such cables. Possibly that could be the best business opportunity ever - to make underground quality DC cables. But require billions of dollars in investment first. I am sure that good plant to make cables cost less then $150 bln nuclear sub anyway
On due consideration....I will not take that bet.
If you just send what you owe me now, maybe we can double or quits later.
For starters there is already more than one copper and / or iron 'smelter' in Australia and second an electric cable plant would indeed probably cost less than $150 bln to build.
Is that how you propose to power the subs ? - not a standalone self-sufficient on-board nuclear reactor, but have them tow around giant extension cables (DC of course) ?
Not sure that is the greatest military strategy there has ever been. Not even the Ruskis are going that desperate.
Yep we are going to buy subs which is 100 years old asolete war technolgy since Chinesa are going to build microwave oven in space to fry us alive. Clearly 21century technology.
Australia should have some ambition and instead of sending simple ore could manufacture some high tech product. We are not going to make computers or even automobiles, but underground cable manufacturing is something we could do.
Let's occupy this world niche for the best quality and price high voltage cables . Our heroes which I admire , Twiggy is making huge solar farms and intend to make hydrogen from electricity. Efficiency of energy conversion is less then 20% when such energy is exported. If we send electricity by undersea cable efficiency will 90% or better. And undersea cable cost less then gas liquifing plant and cargo ships and storage.
Let's make elrctric cable that span whole Australia first and later even connect us to rest of the world. Beside all EV of future require enormous amount of electric energy to be distributed.
Wind farms kill birds. Watch this.
gab.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/posts/109044323554879927
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..
Yep we are going to buy subs which is 100 years old asolete war technolgy since Chinesa are going to build microwave oven in space to fry us alive. Clearly 21century technology.
Australia should have some ambition and instead of sending simple ore could manufacture some high tech product. We are not going to make computers or even automobiles, but underground cable manufacturing is something we could do.
Let's occupy this world niche for the best quality and price high voltage cables . Our heroes which I admire , Twiggy is making huge solar farms and intend to make hydrogen from electricity. Efficiency of energy conversion is less then 20% when such energy is exported. If we send electricity by undersea cable efficiency will 90% or better. And undersea cable cost less then gas liquifing plant and cargo ships and storage.
Let's make elrctric cable that span whole Australia first and later even connect us to rest of the world. Beside all EV of future require enormous amount of electric energy to be distributed.
I think a lot people will agree with you on the manufacturing point. We really are the dumb lucky country.
I have a Swiss friend that tells me how from a very young age she was taught a consistent message in school. The teacher would hold a lump of metal in one hand and a watch in another hand, saying, "We have very few natural resources, so we buy this for 20 cents and sell this for thousands of dollars."
Seems Australia continues to be content with the 20 cents.
Select to expand quote
Much better to die of black lung disease.
Mmmmm love the smell of coal dust in the morning.
Select to expand quoteHarrow said..
I think a lot people will agree with you on the manufacturing point. We really are the dumb lucky country.
I have a Swiss friend that tells me how from a very young age she was taught a consistent message in school. The teacher would hold a lump of metal in one hand and a watch in another hand, saying, "We have very few natural resources, so we buy this for 20 cents and sell this for thousands of dollars."
Seems Australia continues to be content with the 20 cents.
We are lucky in Australia to have so many experts walking around with a carrots stuffed up their arse, full of their own self importance telling everyone else what we are doing wrong.
It's inspiring for all pumpkin heads who read seabreeze.com.au for their news
Electric cars often catch fire for reasons unknown evident from countless videos.
You have a very short period of time to remove yourself from the vehicle before you are burned alive.
Seems a valid reason to continue with the madness.
Found this comment....
I just went through some training on electric car fires as a firefighter. We learned it can take 1400-8000 gallons of water to suppress and stop the batteries from thermal runaway. They are also 10x more likely to catch fire in an accident.
Select to expand quoteHarrow said..Macroscien said..
Yep we are going to buy subs which is 100 years old asolete war technolgy since Chinesa are going to build microwave oven in space to fry us alive. Clearly 21century technology.
Australia should have some ambition and instead of sending simple ore could manufacture some high tech product. We are not going to make computers or even automobiles, but underground cable manufacturing is something we could do.
Let's occupy this world niche for the best quality and price high voltage cables . Our heroes which I admire , Twiggy is making huge solar farms and intend to make hydrogen from electricity. Efficiency of energy conversion is less then 20% when such energy is exported. If we send electricity by undersea cable efficiency will 90% or better. And undersea cable cost less then gas liquifing plant and cargo ships and storage.
Let's make elrctric cable that span whole Australia first and later even connect us to rest of the world. Beside all EV of future require enormous amount of electric energy to be distributed.
I think a lot people will agree with you on the manufacturing point. We really are the dumb lucky country.
I have a Swiss friend that tells me how from a very young age she was taught a consistent message in school. The teacher would hold a lump of metal in one hand and a watch in another hand, saying, "We have very few natural resources, so we buy this for 20 cents and sell this for thousands of dollars."
Seems Australia continues to be content with the 20 cents.
Interesting could be such simulation. Let's imagine that all energy in Australia is delivered from green resources like solar and wind. Maybe even nuclear fusion. We use electric energy to power all cars and homes. Industry where is possible. So whole country is running on electricity. Some electricity is sourced locally from roof panels, local Wind turbines but some need to circulate across Australia.
The question is what sort of transmission capacity lines we may need. How realistic is to build such network ? If it cost 10bln? 100bln? Or 10 trillions? Such modelling could give us idea how to plan for future.
This is like planning for my outback home. 700 m of the street. What sort of underground cable I may need , mm2 copper core., voltage drops, cost of material and digging.
For my own project 20 kW solar panels and big battery storage us hand down winner.
But similar calculations and simulation we could do for country. Percentage of local production and remote transmission.
What size of copper cable we need to span whole country? How many tones of copper is needed and how it relates to our copper production capacity. We should start building industry to prepare and make our own cables. It could be the biggest investment effort in Australia history and the most expensive too, but one than change the future completely.Why our planers able to plan 150 bln spending on imaginery nuclears sub but unable to make plans for real life energy security for country? We could see on Europe example the energy supply is the biggest obstacle for economic safety. But unlike Europe Australia it that lucky country where 100% of energy could be delivered from solar alone assuming the we have enough storage.
There comes my latest Invention> MacroCableLets imagine that we need now to do transcontinental electric transmission cable.
We don't want pylons but underground cable.
Our underground cable need to carry very high voltage.
Something like 1.000.000 Volts !!! ( 1MV)
So our cable laying in that underground tunnel or earth need very thick insulation.What is the best insulation for high voltage?
Vacuum? What if you cable could be suspended in the middle of this underground tunnel hanging in the middle of big pipe filled with vacuum? Cable could even fly by itself thanks to electromagnetic forces!!
Forces between core and walls of the pipe.Did somebody already invented vacuum cable/electric pipe or i am the first here ? 
In the distant future that underground eclectic pipe can be upgraded to carry laser beam without the need to copper conductor at all ! Or combination of laser and electron beams even better. That is something like our fiber optic internet cable, that could carry electricity instead just information data.
Sometimes people do things the way that they do because they work. No vacuum required. No nitrogen cooling. No worry about whether they just spent 400 billion dollars on something that doesn't work.
Tell me Macro, what insulation do they use when playing games with a Tesla coil? Does it work well?
What about in a CRT? What do they use for insulation in that? Does it work well? What level of 'vacuum' do you need to be effective as an insulator? What happens if you lose the vacuum through a leak?
Select to expand quoteFormulaNova said..
Sometimes people do things the way that they do because they work. No vacuum required. No nitrogen cooling. No worry about whether they just spent 400 billion dollars on something that doesn't work.
Tell me Macro, what insulation do they use when playing games with a Tesla coil? Does it work well?
What about in a CRT? What do they use for insulation in that? Does it work well? What level of 'vacuum' do you need to be effective as an insulator? What happens if you lose the vacuum through a leak?
You don't understand magnitude of the problem.
I also taught that you could just use thicker cable and you could transter more electric power load.
Nor so easy.
Apparently for there is limit how much energy you could send by single wire. But that is new challenging new technology we need to learn.
How to send unlimited amount of energy around the planet
Here is example what we are doing now wrong in Australia.
www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-25/billion-dollar-shock-as-grid-renewal-costs-become-clear/101469176
OK we are spending few billion dollars on technology that is already old , absolute and never deliver what we really need.
This is like building now dial up network for our internet needs and telephone bots on every street.
We are going to spend 150 bln on subs, twice as much on tanks, bombs and helicopters that will never see an action.
But we are concern about 5 bln investment into electric grid network - that is responsible for our everyday needs and our future.
This is what you need - dont need high voltage if its a superconductor. And I think a loop of superconductor can be used as a battery, just keep putting more in and it goes round and round.The Room-Temperature Superconductor Arrives at Last
www.energy.gov/science/fes/articles/room-temperature-superconductor-arrives-last
of course Room Temperature is a relative thing!
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..
Here is example what we are doing now wrong in Australia.
www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-25/billion-dollar-shock-as-grid-renewal-costs-become-clear/101469176
Just FYI that headline appears to be a crock. Investigation shows ERA report shows the $1B cost comes from rising interest rates.
Select to expand quoteKBGhost said..Macroscien said..
Here is example what we are doing now wrong in Australia.
www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-25/billion-dollar-shock-as-grid-renewal-costs-become-clear/101469176
Just FYI that headline appears to be a crock. Investigation shows ERA report shows the $1B cost comes from rising interest rates.
Anyone with a modicum of common sense can see and understand that.
Select to expand quotehardpole said..
This is what you need - dont need high voltage if its a superconductor. And I think a loop of superconductor can be used as a battery, just keep putting more in and it goes round and round.The Room-Temperature Superconductor Arrives at Last
www.energy.gov/science/fes/articles/room-temperature-superconductor-arrives-last
of course Room Temperature is a relative thing!
Obviously superconductor is a dream but like a fusion is 20 years away and will be for next hundred years :). But it points to DC network, at least planing for such is long term thinking.
What we need is draw corridors on the map for national transmission network , start building underground tunnels. Discuss some interesting concepts for future. For example do we want cable going along the coast where all cities are or star configuration with cables going across continent: Perth to Brisbane straight line . For second solution advantage could be future utilisation of center of our Island where massive solar farms could be build. Not scarifying aearable and fertile land for solar farms but useless desert land. That could also bring jobs and stimulate development inside island, far from coast.
Select to expand quoteKBGhost said..Macroscien said..
Here is example what we are doing now wrong in Australia.
www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-25/billion-dollar-shock-as-grid-renewal-costs-become-clear/101469176
Just FYI that headline appears to be a crock. Investigation shows ERA report shows the $1B cost comes from rising interest rates.
Main mistake in such planning : public needs to pay for national electric network. It should be business case , self funding opportunity. Australia can produce massive amount of electricity that could be all utilised here without the need to transform into hydrogen and send overseas. Use this electricity here by heavy industry and industry will pay for network. Public could contribute small percentage.
That is matter of business study. Let's our economist and business leaders to decide what they could do with every 1GWh electricity and 10 bln investment funds, in the form of government loans. If return on loan is higher then inflation government coffers will fill up with profit by sponsoring domestic business opportunity without the need for predatory overseas corporates. Corporates that use our gas and other resourcess for free without paying anything.
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..
Obviously superconductor is a dream but like a fusion is 20 years away and will be for next hundred years :). But it points to DC network, at least planing for such is long term thinking.
What we need is draw corridors on the map for national transmission network , start building underground tunnels. Discuss some interesting concepts for future. For example do we want cable going along the coast where all cities are or star configuration with cables going across continent: Perth to Brisbane straight line . For second solution advantage could be future utilisation of center of our Island where massive solar farms could be build. Not scarifying aearable and fertile land for solar farms but useless desert land. That could also bring jobs and stimulate development inside island, far from coast.
You want to build a tunnel from Brisbane to Perth? Trenched cables are expensive enough at around 10 to 20 times the cost of overhead lines. Do you have any idea what that tunnel would cost!?
Why does it have to go in a tunnel? You could just put a nissen hut type cover over it and cover the surface with solar cells to keep the charge boosted as it flows.
