Select to expand quoteIan K said..
$70,000 for a vehicle with 350 kg of battery for a 350km range when the average daily travel is 35km? And the excess weight of superfluous battery compounds. Heavier brakes, wheels suspension etc. Before long people will realise what they really need and car manufacturers will churn out cheaper evs that do 100km at a pinch.
Rent a car to go on that dream road trip that never eventuates.
I average about 60km per day.
But rarely do I do 60km in a day.
For the last 12 months it has been almost entirely 400km each way trip to Brisbane about once every two weeks. Day trip usually, sometimes overnight.
I can get there and back on one tank of diesel, and almost there back and there again. I get about 1100km from 70 litres if I stay below 100kmphr.
It is 196km from my house to the first fuel station going north. At the moment I can make sure I can always make at least another servo if the next one is shut / broke / flooded / overtaken by hippies going to Bluesfest or whatever. Yes, I could go a different route to a pass a closer filling station but that adds overall time and distance.
On a 350km range vehicle that would make the journey management quite interesting, especially on the way back. The idea that I'd have to stop to recharge both up and back seems unrealistic compared to what I can get at the moment. Would be a totally different prospect and make the up and back in a day probably unmanageable and way too risky.
No idea how I would rent a car once a fortnight instead. 20 mins drive in the opposite direction to the nearest rental yard, so what - have an EV for the trip to the rental yard, then hire a petrol car. EV just to do two 20mins trips every two weeks (to a place I don't need to go) and then drive petrol anyway doesn't seem the sustainable solution.
Taxi costs over $70 each way to town last time I did it. So that makes the whole journey cost to hire a car more than driving a diesel car.
Solution could well be to have both an EV and ICE and share with the neighbor. But pretty sure that when people do this they just end up locked into the same vehicle 99% of the time no matter what. Maybe a hybrid, but not sure that isn't the worst of both worlds, not the best.
Like others say, nothing against EVs. They are the future, but for me (and I suspect so many others) swapping to an EV isn't just a case of swapping. It would require a whole different way of working / journeying / living. And at the moment I fail to see the benefit in that for either me or the planet.
Select to expand quoteIan K said..
$70,000 for a vehicle with 350 kg of battery for a 350km range when the average daily travel is 35km? And the excess weight of superfluous battery compounds. Heavier brakes, wheels suspension etc. Before long people will realise what they really need and car manufacturers will churn out cheaper evs that do 100km at a pinch.
Rent a car to go on that dream road trip that never eventuates.
I think you are on the right track for where EV's will go. They suit a small inner city runabout and I think that is where the sales will go, not on larger longer range or work vehicles, but smaller predictable trips and swapable battery units. ie like a gas swap and go. That and the other end - trucks. I can see long haul trucks doing the same thing with regular stops to swap out the batteries.
Tesla in it's current form is not far off maximum penetration IMO. I can see a better future for hybrids. Best of both worlds and no loss of environmental impact due to significantly smaller batteries.
In a twist on the status quo, a Nissan-Mitsubishi collaboration has just released (in Japan) "kei" class micro cars in the style of their 660cc cars in EV. Only capable of 140km, and not sure of speed, but perfect for your daily city use. And only 1,000,000 yen. About 12000 Aussie pesos. I'd buy one it a flash.
Select to expand quoteBuster fin said..
In a twist on the status quo, a Nissan-Mitsubishi collaboration has just released (in Japan) "kei" class micro cars in the style of their 660cc cars in EV. Only capable of 140km, and not sure of speed, but perfect for your daily city use. And only 1,000,000 yen. About 12000 Aussie pesos. I'd buy one it a flash.
Yep Japanese are not tied to western political agenda's. They will do what the market wants and will call bull**** on rubbish claims. Notably the Toyota boss was the only major manufacturer except for Volvo recently to refuse to announce a phase out of ICE engines. Now the likes of BMW and others are joining him saying EV's are not all they are cracked up to be. Volvo especially has been critical of the claimed benefits EV's can actually provide.
Select to expand quoteBuster fin said..
In a twist on the status quo, a Nissan-Mitsubishi collaboration has just released (in Japan) "kei" class micro cars in the style of their 660cc cars in EV. Only capable of 140km, and not sure of speed, but perfect for your daily city use. And only 1,000,000 yen. About 12000 Aussie pesos. I'd buy one it a flash.
Why not just have a motorbike or moped or scooter. Or even an ebike ? Or even an e-motorbike.
Where's the advantage in a car so small it is no longer a car but isn't yet small enough to be a bike ?
^^^ Electric scooters are a perfect city solution for single person travel, but try to convince nervous nelly who drives a 2T 4wd because its safer of that.
A micro car is sellable to them if it has enough air bags
Select to expand quoteParadox said..
. Volvo especially has been critical of the claimed benefits EV's can actually provide.
Where did you get that from? Volvo said it intends to be all electric from 2030 last year and I can't find a statement reversing that
Select to expand quoteMr Milk said..
Where did you get that from? Volvo said it intends to be all electric from 2030 last year and I can't find a statement reversing that
Correct, sorry, I was mixing up the Volvo study showing the huge CO2 cost of EV prodution. It was VW I was thinking of.
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..Buster fin said..
In a twist on the status quo, a Nissan-Mitsubishi collaboration has just released (in Japan) "kei" class micro cars in the style of their 660cc cars in EV. Only capable of 140km, and not sure of speed, but perfect for your daily city use. And only 1,000,000 yen. About 12000 Aussie pesos. I'd buy one it a flash.
Why not just have a motorbike or moped or scooter. Or even an ebike ? Or even an e-motorbike.
Where's the advantage in a car so small it is no longer a car but isn't yet small enough to be a bike ?
Cos you can get two people, two surfboards and all the gear into a comfortable, dry, warm/cool K-car. With the tunes pumping.
And your **** aint being pinched while you're in the water.
Think before you type.
Select to expand quoteBuster fin said..
...Think before you type.
That's a concept I am not likely to try anytime soon. Why change what works awesomely ?
But you said "perfect for your daily city use".
I was taking it you meant it was perfect for daily city use. I assumed daily city use was the commute from your inner city apartment to the work office tower and then to the gym in the evening. I didn't assume "daily city use" meant going to the inner city beach at the weekend for a surf. I had entirely forgotten about that secret left on the corner of Barrack Street that is both a swell magnet and a protected corner that pumps daily, right between the crack house and pawn shop that offers instant cash, no questions asked.
Even then a postie bike with lockable panniers would still be cheaper, better for the planet and have more upsides than downsides.
Select to expand quotepsychojoe said..
What does a Jerry can for an EV look like?
Environmentally EV are much worse than ICE without taking in to account vehicle usage. If battery tech and power generation changes, the eqiation changes.
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..
Where's the advantage in a car so small it is no longer a car but isn't yet small enough to be a bike ?
Advantage?? does awesome coolness rate as an advantage?
The LJ50 'Zook was [is] a Kei class car - and back in the day they were everywhere!
How about something like an electric Mini, or Moke?
Both are rolling off the production line right now
I got all excited when I read EV Moke rolling off the assembly line.... then I saw the price - $54K
"The vehicle can cover up to 144 km between charges"
"the little Moke can just about top 100km/h"
A bit less excited.
And then I looked at what originals are selling for (at least what the sellers are asking for them)..... Here I was thinking I could pick one up for sweet FA. Nope. Even with current classic car prices, the Mokes seem overpriced ($35K+).
I need to get serious about (re-)restoring my old Plymouth.... and with an 8.3L V8, it's pretty much the opposite of an EV, in more ways than one.
An interesting read, without adequate infrastructure full electric vehicles aren't going to work for the greater population.
From A Sparky In Melbourne.
It Really Ain't Gonna Work!!
(ie: Welcome to the Real World!)
Some Wise Words From An Electrical Contractor In Melbourne.
I recently did some work for the body corporate at the Dock 5 Apartment Building in Docklands in Melbourne to see if we could install a small number of electric charging points for owners to charge their electric vehicles.
We had our first three applications and we discovered:
1. The building has no non- allocated parking spaces ie public ones. This is typical of most apartment buildings so we cannot provide shared outlets.
2. The power supply in the building was designed for the loads in the building with virtually no spare capacity. Only 5 or 6 chargers could be installed in total in a building with 188 apartments!!
3. How do you allocate them as they would add value to any apartment owning one. The ****-fight started on day one with about 20 applications received 1st day and with many more following.
4. The car park sub-boards cannot carry the extra loads of even one charger and would have to be upgraded on any floors with a charger as would the supply mains to each sub- board.
5. The main switch board would then have to be upgraded to add the heavier circuit breakers for the sub mains upgrade and furthermore:
6. When Docklands was designed a limit was put on the number of apartments in each precinct and the mains and transformers in the streets designed accordingly.
This means there is no capacity in the Docklands street grid for any significant quantity of car chargers in any building in the area.
7. It gets better. The whole CBD (Hoddle Grid, Docklands) and Southbank is fed by two sub stations. One in Port Melbourne and one in West Melbourne.
This was done to have two alternate feeds in case one failed or was down for maintenance. Because of the growth in the city /Docklands and Southbank now neither one is capable of supplying the full requirement of Melbourne zone at peak usage in mid- summer if the other is out of action. The Port Melbourne 66,000 volt feeder runs on 50 or 60 year old wooden power poles above ground along Dorcas Street South Melbourne. One is pole is located 40 cm from the corner Kerb at the incredibly busy Ferrars /St Dorcas St Intersection and is very vulnerable to being wiped out by a wayward vehicle.
The infrastructure expenditure required would dwarf the NBN cost & that's not including the new power stations required!
These advocates of electric vehicles by 2040 are completely bonkers! It takes 5-8 years to design and build a large coal fired power station like Loy Yang and even longer for a Nuclear one (That's after you get the political will, permits and legislative changes needed). Wind and solar just can't produce enough. Tidal power might but that's further away than nuclear.
MOST AUSTRALIANS DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS YET.......!
It's just a Greenie's dream for the foreseeable future, other than in small wealthy countries.
The grid simply cannot support it in most places in Australia!
An agenda driven by stupid Greenies and supported by stupider Politicians.
Your sparky is assuming the worst case where everyone in docklands commutes to Albury every day. The average Australian car travels 30 km a day. (Those living in /docklands probably even less) An electric car goes 10km on a kWh. That's 3 kWh per day. You can give it a trickle charge over night at 400 watts. The hot water can draw 4 kW, the oven 5 kW, AC 2.5 kW. A smart charger/inverter, plug and play, for each Tesla might actually be beneficial in buffering the peak loads on the ageing wiring in those apartment blocks.
The old ICE has a certain charm about it but its days are numbered.
I doubt if apartment owns would be happy to only be able to trickle charge their cars. Good if you doing a very standard 9-5 job, no more than 20kms away but don't divert to the beach on the way home for a session, you might end up walking home
Full electric is good for some, but not all
Perhaps the lack of infrasructure is part of the plan, if only EV are available and charging is too hard then other forms (bus) of transport will be used.
I don't have an EV and have no imediate plans to get one but i think the whole charging thing is a bit over stated. Although I can see where the problem would be worse in apartments as has been pointed out.
You'll be right, there's never more than one windsurfer per apartment block.
The average per capita electricity consumption is 9.1 MWh. An ev can do the average 10,000 km pa on 1.0 MWh. It's feasible to save that 1.0MWh and more by concurrently introducing energy-efficient housing add ons. Double glazing, awnings, 3 minute showers etc... and once we get past this range anxiety thing cars will be much lighter and go further than 10km on a kWh.
Select to expand quoteIan K said..
Your sparky is assuming ...
I suspect the sparky is assuming the wiring has to be done to Australian Standards.
I ain't a sparky but I doubt you can stick a 5 amp outlet onto a system that doesn't have another 5amps available, even if the total average power consumption of everything likely to be plugged into it is below the total power available.
I'd suspect if the sparky stuck another 5 amp outlet next to four exiting ones, all at the end of one 20 amp circuit Aus Standards don't allow you to argue... yeah, but nah, but yeah, but .....I'll get the neighbor turn their AC off before I turn my car charger on and once it starts trickling I'll let me neighbor know they can turn the AC on again. Don't worry she'll be right mate.....we'll work it out ourselves EV are getting better.
Select to expand quoteairsail said..
Good if you doing a very standard 9-5 job, no more than 20kms away but don't divert to the beach on the way home for a session, you might end up walking home
Full electric is good for some, but not all
It's really not that bad. I hired a tesla for my 7yo, tesla obsessed, daughters birthday and did about 300kms and charging wasn't too big an issue.
Charged it at home overnight, admittedly wasn't that fast, but the destination chargers are much better and i also took it to Karrinyup to the tesla super fast charger and that was great. If you were doing long trips, you'd just need to plan your stops and charging time.
It was a great car, pretty quick at 0-100 in 3seconds, lots of fun, comfy, well set up to drive and heaps of tech.
I'd have one, especially a Plaid, in a heartbeat but i just cant afford one.
I think the sooner we get over it ( electric cars) the better off we'll be or we can continue to burn oil and cook the planet. That's the choice 
One thing not really mentioned in this "electric car.. convince me" thread is .. the cars. There's been some really amazing electric cars released in 2022, other than Teslas. Sadly due to gov't policy "labor's coming for your weekend" fear campaign the election before last, very slow roll out of infrastructure, lack of subsidies to match fossil subsidies due to state capture by the big oil co's etc, car manufacturers aren't bringing their best to Australia. So far. But we'll catch up eventually. These are just the tip of the iceberg, watch as the major's current R&D comes to fruition. Particularly the interiors, they make current cars look prehistoric.
Currently Hyundai and Kia's are pretty stunning. I love the Ioniq 5 looks, cross between retro future looks and lancia throwback stying.
On the topic of the Rivian running 11's, and completely in contrast to the EV discussion, I was out at Willowbank for Mopar Sunday a couple of weeks back. There were a bunch of SRT jeep cherokee's in the mix, two of which were consistently in the 10's. Not on slicks, no burnout. Could literally run from school pick up to soccer practice, and swing by the strip and drop a 10.5 ET.
Quicker than a lot (almost all) of old Mopar Muscle built for the drags and trailered out to the track... certainly changes the context of muscle cars etc. OK, maybe not the context of 'muscle cars', but certainly put an interesting spin on the day.
I was there to see/hear big blocks open up through open headers with a tonne of torque twist, smell the burning rubber etc... and they were getting their asses handed to them by Soccer Mum SUVs (Ok, the SRTs may not be 'soccer mum' SUVs... but still).
I can only imagine coming home from work at 7pm, exhausted and having to plug in at a servo for 45 minutes after a crap day, because my unit doesn't have parking.
I'm now home closer to 8pm.
www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-electric-car-sales-crash-in-july/
Perhaps everyone is buying those other electric cars?
Electric buses banned in Germany, too many catching fire. Imagine an apartment building with a heap of EV's sitting underneath in the car park all on charge.
I'm sure the bigger brands will not be an issue, but how about the cheaper options, it will only take one cell to overheat while being charged and the whole building could go up in flames. You will probably see EV's banned from apartment buildings.
www.cleanenergywire.org/news/several-german-cities-halt-use-e-buses-following-series-unresolved-cases-fire
^^^^
Slot cars, they were the days. I drove past a Tesla today. New Y model.it had run out of charge, poor sod. I never be convinced into buying one.
