Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..GavGav said..
Well thankfully they took the lead out of fuel as there is no safe "dose"
Yeah wasn't that good of them. Amazing how all our ancestors ever managed to survive long enough to breed and produce us.
Well, it was only about 60 years of breathing lead. But it was enough to get Trump elected
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
All the big warships, most of our power generation.
You might be surprised how quickly that is changing. South Australia retired all of their coal-fired generation years ago. Next year, NSW will retire 2 GW of coal generation and another 3 GW in 2025. That's about a 1/3rd of the total NSW load and a similar amount has already been retired. The (old) Australian federal government is being slammed for not committing to global targets, but it's not needed....the market is taking care of it anyway.
Different story in QLD where the power industry is still government-owned and politics trump economics. Although, QLD does have the youngest fleet of coal generation, so they'll survive a little longer.
Select to expand quoteGavGav said..
Well thankfully they took the lead out of fuel as there is no safe "dose"
Actually, lead is probably an essential nutrient, the "dose" is just smaller than you had imagined.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2246629/
Select to expand quoteHarrow said..
You might be surprised how quickly that is changing. South Australia retired all of their coal-fired generation years ago. Next year, NSW will retire 2 GW of coal generation and another 3 GW in 2025. That's about a 1/3rd of the total NSW load and a similar amount has already been retired. The (old) Australian federal government is being slammed for not committing to global targets, but it's not needed....the market is taking care of it anyway.
Different story in QLD where the power industry is still government-owned and politics trump economics. Although, QLD does have the youngest fleet of coal generation, so they'll survive a little longer.
Sure, but all that has happened is that we have shifted from coal to gas, or in SA's case from coal to gas and tapping into eastern coal via the interconnecter. I am not wedded to coal, but I am pretty fond of the benefits of cheap and affordable power and that can only come via low cost dispatchable power. ie coal / gas / nuclear.
We need to made a decision on which we will have, and realistically we need at least two of those. The outcome of the coal retirements is merely a reduction in the ability of our power system to handle shocks and an increase in power costs and liklihood of power shortages. How do you reckon we would have fared without coal power over the last week in Eastern Australia? Wind and solar at any level of generation are not doing anything...
There is massive energy shortage in the northern hemisphere at the moment primarily because of the closure or lack of investment in dispatchable power sources and related fuel supply security.
Select to expand quotemoon waxing said..
Reading some of the posts on this thread would have been like listening to the grumpy old horse and cart enthusiasts 100 years ago bitching about the introduction of the Model T Ford
Possibly, or perhaps they are the ones looking at the guy pushing a telex machine as the game changer in communications for generations and suggesting perhaps your confidence is missplaced.
There is a difference between resisting change and critically assessing the drawbacks of a technology, and EV's have a large amount of drawbacks that are not easily overcome.
Select to expand quoteHarrow said..Mark _australia said..
All the big warships, most of our power generation.
You might be surprised how quickly that is changing. South Australia retired all of their coal-fired generation years ago. Next year, NSW will retire 2 GW of coal generation and another 3 GW in 2025. That's about a 1/3rd of the total NSW load and a similar amount has already been retired. The (old) Australian federal government is being slammed for not committing to global targets, but it's not needed....the market is taking care of it anyway.
Different story in QLD where the power industry is still government-owned and politics trump economics. Although, QLD does have the youngest fleet of coal generation, so they'll survive a little longer.
I think you missed it 
I was responding to Decrepits very valid comment about steam still be used.
And gas, nuclear, geothermal, some forms of solar electricity generation still utilize steam in the process.
Even 'steam' storage instead of battery storage for solar PV has been shown to be less expensive and more efficient.
Sometimes we forget just how inefficient batteries that use chemical potential energy are. Nearly 250 years of experimenting with different anodes, cathodes and electrolytes (and using complex computer logic circuits to control them all) and petrol exploded in a basic ICE is still 100 times more energy dense.
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..
And gas, nuclear, geothermal, some forms of solar electricity generation still utilize steam in the process.
Even 'steam' storage instead of battery storage for solar PV has been shown to be less expensive and more efficient.
Sometimes we forget just how inefficient batteries that use chemical potential energy are. Nearly 250 years of experimenting with different anodes, cathodes and electrolytes (and using complex computer logic circuits to control them all) and petrol exploded in a basic ICE is still 100 times more energy dense.
Energy density is often misunderstood. A Lithium battery has an energy density of maybe 0.7MJ/kg. Coal has about 24MJ/kg, petrol about 46MJ/kg and Uranium is 76million MJ/kg.
That is not a mistake. One Kg of uranium outputs the same amount of energy as up to 4,000 tonnes of coal, or 40 rail cars. A typical nuclear plant uses 27 tonnes of uranium per year. or about half a phone booth.
As an easy exercise, if you wanted to replace a 1Gw thermal plant (not particularly big) with batteries for one day. Say as a backup for if sun and wind are not friendly, using the figures for the hornsdale big battery in SA, you would need the equivilent of 186 big batteries just on nameplate. If real world limitations and efficiency were used you would probably have to double it, but lets use just the nameplate.
186 big batteries would cost $32 billion. As mentioned real world probably double. For one day, for one very average power plant. If it was cloudy and still past 24 hours, you are in the dark.
Lithium prices have trippled since hornsdale was built.
Select to expand quoteParadox
Energy density is often misunderstood. A Lithium battery has an energy density of maybe 0.7MJ/kg. Coal has about 24MJ/kg, petrol about 46MJ/kg and Uranium is 76million MJ/kg.
That is not a mistake. One Kg of uranium outputs the same amount of energy as up to 4,000 tonnes of coal, or 40 rail cars. A typical nuclear plant uses 27 tonnes of uranium per year. or about half a phone booth.
As an easy exercise, if you wanted to replace a 1Gw thermal plant (not particularly big) with batteries for one day. Say as a backup for if sun and wind are not friendly, using the figures for the hornsdale big battery in SA, you would need the equivilent of 186 big batteries just on nameplate. If real world limitations and efficiency were used you would probably have to double it, but lets use just the nameplate.
186 big batteries would cost $32 billion. As mentioned real world probably double. For one day, for one very average power plant. If it was cloudy and still past 24 hours, you are in the dark.
Lithium prices have trippled since hornsdale was built.
Not quite that bad. The ICE is flat out getting 30 % of that 46 MJ converted to motion whereas a battery is 95% efficient in the charge discharge cycle and 85% thru an electric motor.
The thing that really winds up a cranky old-timer is the current practice of sitting in a car with the engine running! They've pulled up to take a phone call, waiting for a lady, Drive thru coffee. If you tap on the window you get an "air con you idiot" look.
An air conditioning compressor ( in a typical small residential unit) draws 500 watts. Turning it with an ice designed to deliver 150kW is just dumb. An idling motor consumes 2 litres per hour. Divide that 46 MJ per kilo thru and you get a 20 kW rate of fossil fuel consumption
for 500 watts of useful work.
Sitting in a stationary ev with the aircon running when it's 25 degrees outside is nowhere near as stupid.
Select to expand quoteIan K said..
Not quite that bad. The ICE is flat out getting 30 % of that 46 MJ converted to motion whereas a battery is 95% efficient in the charge discharge cycle and 85% thru an electric motor.
True enough the engine or turbine conversion efficiency does factor depending on the usage and comparison you are doing. I am not a fan of petrol engines and drive all turbo diesel cars myself so will work with that. A modern turbo diesel runs at about 43% efficiency.
so calculating for conversion efficiency:
Lithium battery at 90% has a usable density of 0.6MW/kg
Diesel ICE at 43% has a usable density of 20MW/kg
Coal power station at 40% has a usable density of 10MW/kg
nuclear plants run at about 33% so have a usable density of 25million MW/kg
Select to expand quoteParadox said..
Sure, but all that has happened is that we have shifted from coal to gas, or in SA's case from coal to gas and tapping into eastern coal via the interconnecter. I am not wedded to coal, but I am pretty fond of the benefits of cheap and affordable power and that can only come via low cost dispatchable power. ie coal / gas / nuclear.
We need to made a decision on which we will have, and realistically we need at least two of those. The outcome of the coal retirements is merely a reduction in the ability of our power system to handle shocks and an increase in power costs and liklihood of power shortages. How do you reckon we would have fared without coal power over the last week in Eastern Australia? Wind and solar at any level of generation are not doing anything...
There is massive energy shortage in the northern hemisphere at the moment primarily because of the closure or lack of investment in dispatchable power sources and related fuel supply security.
You make it sound like there are no renewables at all. Coal isn't being replaced by gas.... it's being replaced by renewables and gas peaking plant. In time, when there is enough storage and renewables keep increasing, less and less gas will be needed. There are times when solar generation meets 100% of the demand in South Australia. Electric cars will provide a lot of the required storage locally.
Cam on, cam on. Can we stay on topic ?
You'se know how delicate the mods get when things stray a little.
Issue at hand is convincing Tonz about the need for an EV to get to and from the beach.
Not sure anyone is considering the pros and cons of types of power stations they are about to buy to help power a vacuum pump to end all vacuum pumps.
Look mate, if you head down the inner city beach on Saturday mornings with your hipster beard, unbuttoned wetsuit and wind-wing for 25 minutes before heading for a latte and chatting with all the cool bros about how cool you all are and how awesome that Connon-Brookes fellow is, then yes an EV is probably a must.
But if you wanna head away for a few weeks on a classic surf road trip to anywhere more than 10km from the city-center bell tower, then - well nooooo. An EV is probably a dumber idea that lathering yourself up with whale blood and floating around some isolated rock outcrop at dusk making noises like an injured sea lion.
Select to expand quoteHarrow said..Paradox said..
Sure, but all that has happened is that we have shifted from coal to gas, or in SA's case from coal to gas and tapping into eastern coal via the interconnecter. I am not wedded to coal, but I am pretty fond of the benefits of cheap and affordable power and that can only come via low cost dispatchable power. ie coal / gas / nuclear.
We need to made a decision on which we will have, and realistically we need at least two of those. The outcome of the coal retirements is merely a reduction in the ability of our power system to handle shocks and an increase in power costs and liklihood of power shortages. How do you reckon we would have fared without coal power over the last week in Eastern Australia? Wind and solar at any level of generation are not doing anything...
There is massive energy shortage in the northern hemisphere at the moment primarily because of the closure or lack of investment in dispatchable power sources and related fuel supply security.
You make it sound like there are no renewables at all. Coal isn't being replaced by gas.... it's being replaced by renewables and gas peaking plant. In time, when there is enough storage and renewables keep increasing, less and less gas will be needed. There are times when solar generation meets 100% of the demand in South Australia. Electric cars will provide a lot of the required storage locally.
I guess that brings into play the other cool thing about being forced into EVs and renewables simultaneously. When the rolling blackouts begin, that $30,000 battery we call a car will be able to keep the lights on at the dinner table.
Select to expand quotepsychojoe said..
I guess that brings into play the other cool thing about being forced into EVs and renewables simultaneously. When the rolling blackouts begin, that $30,000 battery we call a car will be able to keep the lights on at the dinner table.
..except it won't.
'cause the grid don't work like that. You won't be able to feed the power back into the grid if the grid is down. It doesn't let you.
So unless you have an isolator approved and connected into your home the best you'll be able to do is sit in your EV eating canned beetroot from your survival kit admiring the stitching on the faux leather steering wheel.
The batteries might come in handy one day holding down the tarp that is gathering rainwater in a storm.
Look people,
you can joke all you want but the truth is batteries have both a positive and a negative side...
(I'll get my coat..))
Each individual petrol stations fill up 1000's of cars every day....
Imagine 1000's of ev's trying to be charged
Push bikes are going to sell well. Maybe horses and carts too.
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..
So unless you have an isolator approved and connected into your home the best you'll be able to do is
Pretty sure every home has a mains switch, or an approved and connected isolator as you've renamed it
Interestingly, I read an article that stated Australia has approved ev car batteries being used as house batteries.
Most ev batteries will be many times larger that any home batteries. And most will be sitting in people garages majority of the time.
Tesla's don't have this tech yet, majority of others do
I'm assuming you will need some fancy expensive charger/inverter to make this happen.
If this comes affordable and functional. It may persuade more rich people to get on board the ev bandwagon
Select to expand quoteTonyAbbott said..
Interestingly, I read an article that stated Australia has approved ev car batteries being used as house batteries.
Most ev batteries will be many times larger that any home batteries. And most will be sitting in people garages majority of the time.
Tesla's don't have this tech yet, majority of others do
I'm assuming you will need some fancy expensive charger/inverter to make this happen.
If this comes affordable and functional. It may persuade more rich people to get on board the ev bandwagon
Installing one of these shortly for a client.
Select to expand quoteCrusoe said..TonyAbbott said..
Interestingly, I read an article that stated Australia has approved ev car batteries
Installing one of these shortly for a client.
That's great news as I didn't think it was legal in Oz.
Select to expand quoteMr Milk said..
Well, it was only about 60 years of breathing lead. But it was enough to get Trump elected
But not Hilary Clinton, so ... what's your point?
Select to expand quoteCrusoe said..TonyAbbott said..
Interestingly, I read an article that stated Australia has approved ev car batteries being used as house batteries.
Most ev batteries will be many times larger that any home batteries. And most will be sitting in people garages majority of the time.
Tesla's don't have this tech yet, majority of others do
I'm assuming you will need some fancy expensive charger/inverter to make this happen.
If this comes affordable and functional. It may persuade more rich people to get on board the ev bandwagon
Installing one of these shortly for a client.
What's needed for this instal?
Cost?
Select to expand quoteHarrow said..
You make it sound like there are no renewables at all. Coal isn't being replaced by gas.... it's being replaced by renewables and gas peaking plant. In time, when there is enough storage and renewables keep increasing, less and less gas will be needed. There are times when solar generation meets 100% of the demand in South Australia. Electric cars will provide a lot of the required storage locally.
Fair enough and yes SA has had a solid increase in renewable generation. Unfortunately they are also enjoying the increased retail power costs that renewable generation provides as well, with thier power cost about 30% or more above eastern states. But they do enjoy the wind they get down there when it blows.
However I would challenge that renewable penetration can keep increasing without storage. There is no workable method currently to store electricity at a grid level nor is there any in development. The scale is too large and no, I do not believe that EV batteries will help to any meaningful extent. Again the scale is too large to make any difference and I am not convinced many people will happily let the grid drain thier EV batteries overnight.
Also bear in mind that even in SA where renewables provide over 50% of the electricity demand, thier total contribution to energy use only about 13%, with oil, gas and coal still providing 87% of energy demand.
A quick look at SA retail price shows it's much the same as NSW.
I got my new offer in the mail yesterday from Origin. Price is going down by 2.4c/kwh, but connection fee goes up by 4.2c/day.
Also feed in rates are going down by 4c, but I'm still being paid a heap more than solar farms get.
Select to expand quoteMr Milk said..
A quick look at SA retail price shows it's much the same as NSW.
I got my new offer in the mail yesterday from Origin. Price is going down by 2.4c/kwh, but connection fee goes up by 4.2c/day.
Also feed in rates are going down by 4c, but I'm still being paid a heap more than solar farms get.
www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/electricity-costs-kwh/
StateAverage Electricity Usage Rates (per kWh)
VIC19.77c/kWh
QLD19.97c/kWh
NSW22.74c/kWh
SA31.52c/kWh
electricitymonster.com.au/average-electricity-cost-per-kwh/
StateAverage Electricity Usage Rates (c/kWh)
NSW26.53c
VIC25.86c
QLD22.20c
SA35.32c
ACT22.81c
TAS26.59c
Select to expand quoteParadox said..Mr Milk said..
A quick look at SA retail price shows it's much the same as NSW.
I got my new offer in the mail yesterday from Origin. Price is going down by 2.4c/kwh, but connection fee goes up by 4.2c/day.
Also feed in rates are going down by 4c, but I'm still being paid a heap more than solar farms get.
www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/electricity-costs-kwh/
StateAverage Electricity Usage Rates (per kWh)
VIC19.77c/kWh
QLD19.97c/kWh
NSW22.74c/kWh
SA31.52c/kWh
electricitymonster.com.au/average-electricity-cost-per-kwh/
StateAverage Electricity Usage Rates (c/kWh)
NSW26.53c
VIC25.86c
QLD22.20c
SA35.32c
ACT22.81c
TAS26.59c
But even at SA prices you can charge up your Tesla 3 for $25 and drive 350 km. ( That's nearly a fortnight's driving for the average Australian car. You can easily top up the 5 kWh needed each day plugging into a standard household outlet.)
Select to expand quoteIan K said..
But even at SA prices you can charge up your Tesla 3 for $25 and drive 350 km. ( That's nearly a fortnight's driving for the average Australian car. You can easily top up the 5 kWh needed each day plugging into a standard household outlet.)
Well sure you can. But realistically that saving has to be offset against paying $70,000 for what is just a sedan, so the cost benefits are marginal.
Considering it takes maybe 100,000km to break even on CO2 emissions, the environmental benefits are not that obvious either. I have nothing against EV's, I just can't see the benefits people think are there.
Select to expand quoteParadox said..Mr Milk said..
A quick look at SA retail price shows it's much the same as NSW.
I got my new offer in the mail yesterday from Origin. Price is going down by 2.4c/kwh, but connection fee goes up by 4.2c/day.
Also feed in rates are going down by 4c, but I'm still being paid a heap more than solar farms get.
www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/electricity-costs-kwh/
StateAverage Electricity Usage Rates (per kWh)
VIC19.77c/kWh
QLD19.97c/kWh
NSW22.74c/kWh
SA31.52c/kWh
electricitymonster.com.au/average-electricity-cost-per-kwh/
StateAverage Electricity Usage Rates (c/kWh)
NSW26.53c
VIC25.86c
QLD22.20c
SA35.32c
ACT22.81c
TAS26.59c
Does the massive difference in the various "averages" not make you think that one or the other or both are unreliable?
Select to expand quoteMr Milk said..
Does the massive difference in the various "averages" not make you think that one or the other or both are unreliable?
Not really, I assume the difference is in the product they are comparing, the difference is consistant on both sources. One could be measuring the cheapest available domestic rate, the other might be an average of domestic and commercial rates. I have not checked but I am not aware of any source that does not show a consistantly higher retail price in SA to other states on a like for like comparison.
Select to expand quoteParadox said..Ian K said..
But even at SA prices you can charge up your Tesla 3 for $25 and drive 350 km. ( That's nearly a fortnight's driving for the average Australian car. You can easily top up the 5 kWh needed each day plugging into a standard household outlet.)
Well sure you can. But realistically that saving has to be offset against paying $70,000 for what is just a sedan, so the cost benefits are marginal.
Considering it takes maybe 100,000km to break even on CO2 emissions, the environmental benefits are not that obvious either. I have nothing against EV's, I just can't see the benefits people think are there.
$70,000 for a vehicle with 350 kg of battery for a 350km range when the average daily travel is 35km? And the excess weight of superfluous battery compounds. Heavier brakes, wheels suspension etc. Before long people will realise what they really need and car manufacturers will churn out cheaper evs that do 100km at a pinch.
Rent a car to go on that dream road trip that never eventuates.
