to refer to a nz boat using the KA code is a mortal sin

windsufering said...

to refer to a nz boat using the KA code is a mortal sin

Out of interest, what does KA actually stand for?

MattD said...

windsufering said...

to refer to a nz boat using the KA code is a mortal sin

Out of interest, what does KA actually stand for?

Kingdom of Australia

Wannabe said...

JayBee said...

Victor B said...

ridiculously pedantic. No boat is ever "identical". The 12 metre rule was obviously a way allowing some reasonable creativity - in the same sense as formula 1 car rules apply...etc etc etc.

Getting back to my main point...this whole thing is really about two guys wanting to show the world they have the biggest d**K. Yeah, I agree, great show and fantastic to watch, but no real contest and a waste of money on a grand scale. Essentially it's got to the point of being who's got the biggest toy (which boils down to money), not who is the best sailor.

"ridiculously pedantic" - Ouch. Hurts muchly! Not the worst way I have ever been described though.
"No boat is ever "identical"." Laser, 49er, Soling, 420, 470, Windsurfer OD, Tasar, Elliott 6, Tornado, Finn, Europe..... All designed to be identical boats, variation in hull shape is not allowed (i.e. you cannot compete if your hull does not measure against strict standards)

"in the same sense as formula 1 car rules apply" - yet I have never heard anyone refer to F1 as "same car racing".

In effect the two yachts we just saw racing do fit into a rule (just as J yachts, 12m and IACC yachts do).
The rule is..."The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water line; if of more than one mast, they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water line."

America's Cup has always been about ego, this one is no different to any other. Why did Alan Bond want to win the Cup? Originally it was because he was not admitted to the New York Yacht Club. Yep, he spent millions because of a petty gripe. Yet it has become an amazing part of yachting history. Long live the eccentrics who are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

I saw (before you edited your post) that you wanted me to quote my sources! Were you serious??? Nothing I have stated could be considered in any way to be in the public domain. There is a truckload of books you can get on the cup and its history. I would recommend "Keelhauled: Unsportsmanlike Conduct and the America's Cup" by Doug Riggs as a starting point.

And to finally answer the question you insist on repeating "Who has the biggest dick?" The answer is "Me".

JB

Laser, 49er, Soling, 420, 470, Windsurfer OD, Tasar, Elliott 6, Tornado, Finn, Europe

I know i shouldn't bite here, but the people who sail most of these classes probably wouldn't agree that, although being one design, they are the same.

Lasers, for example, have two rather different sail makers. One of which is considered to be far superior and the only choice if you want to win in top level racing.

Tornados are one design in concept, however (correct me if i am wrong) the sails can be made by any manufacturer to fit within a sail area. One team (can't remember who atm but was skippered by an ex-aussie) turned up to the Olympics in China with a spinnaker designed to be used upwind.

The 49er has just had a major rig upgrade, changing to a carbon-fiber mast, square top mainsail and i believe a larger jib. From all the fleets i have seen since the change (excluding world titles) the majority of the class is still sailing with the old rig, which is considerably slower, and considered to be more difficult to sail.

Tasars ( a class i am close to) have their differences. Walk around the boat park and you will not find two identical boats. Over their 30+ years they have been made from several different moulds around the world, the position of the centerboard has been moved, the materials have changed (the original boats were made from Kevlar) and the sails have recently had a major upgrade where each batch of sails made has their differences from the last.

420's have several suppliers, with only one (German i believe) being seen as the 'choice of champions'.

Im sure i could go on if i put the time into researching the other classes if i had time but the point i am trying to make is that there is not really any racing with identical boats. One design is a great concept in reducing costs, but it still doesn't make completely fair racing. People will always spend more money to try to improve their performance.

What a load of cr@p. You cant spend more money on a laser to improve your performance. At the world championships and olympics all of the equipment barring tiller, tiller extension and ropes are provided with selection of boats by lottery. Robert Schiedt of Brazil didn't win 7 worlds and a couple of gold medals by buying/developing a better boat

This is me, not feeding Trolls.

Are you happy now?

Wannabe said...

JayBee said...

Victor B said...

ridiculously pedantic. No boat is ever "identical". The 12 metre rule was obviously a way allowing some reasonable creativity - in the same sense as formula 1 car rules apply...etc etc etc.

Getting back to my main point...this whole thing is really about two guys wanting to show the world they have the biggest d**K. Yeah, I agree, great show and fantastic to watch, but no real contest and a waste of money on a grand scale. Essentially it's got to the point of being who's got the biggest toy (which boils down to money), not who is the best sailor.

"ridiculously pedantic" - Ouch. Hurts muchly! Not the worst way I have ever been described though.
"No boat is ever "identical"." Laser, 49er, Soling, 420, 470, Windsurfer OD, Tasar, Elliott 6, Tornado, Finn, Europe..... All designed to be identical boats, variation in hull shape is not allowed (i.e. you cannot compete if your hull does not measure against strict standards)

"in the same sense as formula 1 car rules apply" - yet I have never heard anyone refer to F1 as "same car racing".

In effect the two yachts we just saw racing do fit into a rule (just as J yachts, 12m and IACC yachts do).
The rule is..."The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water line; if of more than one mast, they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water line."

America's Cup has always been about ego, this one is no different to any other. Why did Alan Bond want to win the Cup? Originally it was because he was not admitted to the New York Yacht Club. Yep, he spent millions because of a petty gripe. Yet it has become an amazing part of yachting history. Long live the eccentrics who are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

I saw (before you edited your post) that you wanted me to quote my sources! Were you serious??? Nothing I have stated could be considered in any way to be in the public domain. There is a truckload of books you can get on the cup and its history. I would recommend "Keelhauled: Unsportsmanlike Conduct and the America's Cup" by Doug Riggs as a starting point.

And to finally answer the question you insist on repeating "Who has the biggest dick?" The answer is "Me".

JB

Laser, 49er, Soling, 420, 470, Windsurfer OD, Tasar, Elliott 6, Tornado, Finn, Europe

I know i shouldn't bite here, but the people who sail most of these classes probably wouldn't agree that, although being one design, they are the same.

Lasers, for example, have two rather different sail makers. One of which is considered to be far superior and the only choice if you want to win in top level racing.

Tornados are one design in concept, however (correct me if i am wrong) the sails can be made by any manufacturer to fit within a sail area. One team (can't remember who atm but was skippered by an ex-aussie) turned up to the Olympics in China with a spinnaker designed to be used upwind.

The 49er has just had a major rig upgrade, changing to a carbon-fiber mast, square top mainsail and i believe a larger jib. From all the fleets i have seen since the change (excluding world titles) the majority of the class is still sailing with the old rig, which is considerably slower, and considered to be more difficult to sail.

Tasars ( a class i am close to) have their differences. Walk around the boat park and you will not find two identical boats. Over their 30+ years they have been made from several different moulds around the world, the position of the centerboard has been moved, the materials have changed (the original boats were made from Kevlar) and the sails have recently had a major upgrade where each batch of sails made has their differences from the last.

420's have several suppliers, with only one (German i believe) being seen as the 'choice of champions'.

Im sure i could go on if i put the time into researching the other classes if i had time but the point i am trying to make is that there is not really any racing with identical boats. One design is a great concept in reducing costs, but it still doesn't make completely fair racing. People will always spend more money to try to improve their performance.

Sure, the boats are not absolutely identical, but the Laser, Tasar, Wally etc are just about all practically identical to about 95%+ of sailors - or more.

Certainly you're overstating the case to say that only one Laser sail manufacturer can produce a winning sail - sails at Open worlds are handed out. Even at the Masters worlds, no one was talking about one manufacturer being much better.

Unless you're one of the Olympians, the flaws in your sailing technique are way more of an issue than the sail manufacturer. Certainly, until the Olympians came along you could win a States in Lasers with a stock boat straight out of the shop. And because the Worlds and Games are sailed in supplied boats, our top Laser sailors often don't pay much attention to their boats - as one ex world champ said when told to take more care of the sails, no amount of attention paid to gear was as important as blowing a start.

Tasars, too, are for just about all intents and purposes identical. Sure, there's a little bit of difference in weight among the older boats, but you can still go awfully well in one. I haven't raced a title in the class for years, but my brother borrowed my 1977 boat (with its 15 year old dacrons) and got 5th from about 50 in the NSW titles a couple of years ago. That's pretty much where the boat used to finish. There's only 4 Kevlar boats (all imported) in Oz BTW, and only one of them (160 Ultralite) has a particularly good record over the past decade.

Two of the last 4 Wally nationals have been won by a board built from a very early batch, about '84, and with a second-hand sail. The other two recent nationals have been won by new boards, straight from the shop.

So for many classes, the difference in gear is so minor as to be almost irrelevant - it's one missed tack in a series, or less. Most people aren't close to quick enough to get to the stage where their gear is a significant factor, so it's not really worth worrying about a lot of the time.

Sure, in Tornadoes and 420s there's a bit of a difference due to the wider tolerances and open suppliers of sails, deck gear, spars, hulls etc. I haven't done 420s since I was a kid but a good old Roga was just as fast as anything else in NSW back then.