nick0 said...

all i see is the world fasters 90ft cat and the world fastest 90 tri .. i dont know much about the history but shouldnt it be able country v country sailers v sailers .. ****s ridiculouse .. .. change is good but wouldnt 2 canting keeling wingmasted 90ft speed monos be better .. when i wasted the start i missed the normal start procedure how they would play with each other in true match racing spirit .. and if the world ran my way..

Yes Nick, you dont know much about the history.
"shouldnt it be able country v country sailers v sailers". It is, USA vs SWE, and there are strict regulations regarding sailor eligibility. Both yachts are funded by wealthy individuals, just as they have always been. In the 1900's Sir Thomas Lipton had a series of challenges (Shamrock 1 - 4) funded by his Liptons Tea business.
This is a "deed of gift" America's Cup, where there is no agreement on any of the rules, therefore it defaults to the terms by which the event was founded. That allows boats that are up to 90 feet LWL (if single masted). Why would you build a 90 foot monohull if your competitor shows up with a 90 foot cat. That is what happened in 1987 when the kiwis challenged with KA1 (140 foot monohull) and the americans defended with a cat. The cat won easily.
If the defender and challenger of record agree they could choose to sail in 90 foot monohulls, but only if they agree. This time they didnt.

2 Billionaires have built two of the most extreme sailing boats ever seen. It has cost an absolute fortune and appears extravagent in times of global recession. BUT they have kept thousands of people in jobs in tough times building these boats - can that be a bad thing? If you have the cash, then why not?

Yes - it was over quickly last night, but it is unlikely we will see boats like these sail again in the next 20 years.

This America's Cup lives up to the fashion in which it was created, lots of legal issues, lots of "waiving the rules", and incredible boats fighting it out on the water.

The drama of the America's Cup is second to no novel or movie, and it is real. It is well worth looking at the history of this event, it is an amazing story.

JB

JayBee said...
It is, USA vs SWE....

I think you mean SUI not SWE..... Alinghi was launched and did most of its testing in landlocked Switzerland. It was then helicoptered off the lake..incredible!

Gestalt said...


does anyone have any real data about boat speed from the race. yes they were flying but i'm keen to see some data. i had a look around online but couldn't find anything.

what is being said here is that bor was doing 3x the wind speed to windward, is that correct?

I found this on the ac website


Race 1 figures : BOR av.speed UW 20,2 | DW 23,5 - Alinghi av. speed (with time taken & distance for penalty) UW 19,4 | DW 20,7

frant said...

nebbian said...

Hmmm that's a good point Frant...

*puts thinking cap back on*

I have thought about it over the weekend. I now believe that it is possible to make VMG downwind at greater than windspeed. Drew a few vectors and came to conclusion.
1/ Apparent wind is made up of vector sum of velocity wind and true wind.
2/ True wind only provides propulsion, Velocity wind is from dead ahead and provides drag only.
3/The sails must be trimmed to apparent wind, ie providing that the apparent wind is at greater than say approx 15 deg from dead ahead the sails can be trimmed.
4/For a course say 135 deg off wind with say a VMG downwind of 2 x windspeed the boatspeed (velocity wind ) will be root2x2xWS = 2.8 WS with the apparent wind at approx 2 WS at approx 20 deg from dead ahead. This would be (almost achievable on a windsurfer so the AC boats should pull these numbers)
5/ As the course approaches 180 deg off wind the apparent wind falls and moves forward, optimum angle must be close to 135 deg.

I think you should go for a windsurf frant and stop trying to think.

America's Cup has never been about 'same boat' march racing. Name one well known 'one design' match racing event!

JayBee said...

nick0 said...

all i see is the world fasters 90ft cat and the world fastest 90 tri .. i dont know much about the history but shouldnt it be able country v country sailers v sailers .. ****s ridiculouse .. .. change is good but wouldnt 2 canting keeling wingmasted 90ft speed monos be better .. when i wasted the start i missed the normal start procedure how they would play with each other in true match racing spirit .. and if the world ran my way..

Yes Nick, you dont know much about the history.
"shouldnt it be able country v country sailers v sailers". It is, USA vs SWE, and there are strict regulations regarding sailor eligibility. Both yachts are funded by wealthy individuals, just as they have always been. In the 1900's Sir Thomas Lipton had a series of challenges (Shamrock 1 - 4) funded by his Liptons Tea business.
This is a "deed of gift" America's Cup, where there is no agreement on any of the rules, therefore it defaults to the terms by which the event was founded. That allows boats that are up to 90 feet LWL (if single masted). Why would you build a 90 foot monohull if your competitor shows up with a 90 foot cat. That is what happened in 1987 when the kiwis challenged with KA1 (140 foot monohull) and the americans defended with a cat. The cat won easily.
If the defender and challenger of record agree they could choose to sail in 90 foot monohulls, but only if they agree. This time they didnt.

2 Billionaires have built two of the most extreme sailing boats ever seen. It has cost an absolute fortune and appears extravagent in times of global recession. BUT they have kept thousands of people in jobs in tough times building these boats - can that be a bad thing? If you have the cash, then why not?

Yes - it was over quickly last night, but it is unlikely we will see boats like these sail again in the next 20 years.

This America's Cup lives up to the fashion in which it was created, lots of legal issues, lots of "waiving the rules", and incredible boats fighting it out on the water.

The drama of the America's Cup is second to no novel or movie, and it is real. It is well worth looking at the history of this event, it is an amazing story.

JB

am glad you brought this up i don't mind them spending billions but i was confused as to why it became tri vs cat match racing should've been same specs but you covered a lot..too bad in anticipation the cable networks here never showed one bit of pre-race or partying unlike before the monohulls it was like a 3hr. event

london 2012 one design match racing

windsufering said...

london 2012 one design match racing

Windsufering, my old friend,

The fact that London 2012 has not happened yet makes it difficult to say whether it is a well known one design match racing event. The additional fact that you omitted the word Olympic leads me to believe that it will not be "well known".
In 2000 Olympics the Solings sailed fleet races for the first half of the event and the top sailors went forward to a match racing final series. Very few people would say that it was well known, but it was an olympic match racing event in one designs that has faded into obscurity, and I think 2012 wil do so too.

JB

NotWal said...

It seems Ben Lexcen was not the inventor of the winged keel. The brains trust that came up with it (concept and development) was a Dutch crew headed by Peter van Oossenan according to the same Peter. They kept it quiet because foreign design was against the rules. The boat had to be developed by people of the challenging country.

There's a nice irony. The theme song for the challenge was "I Come From a Land Down under", recently scrutinised and judged to be an illegal misuse of prior art. Men at Work's plagiarism was probably nothing more than a neat little nod to a bit of Australiana. Its just a pity they failed to seek permission from the copyright holder.

Why dont they stay with 12m mono hulls?

JayBee said...

Doggie,

The last time 12m yachts were sued is 1987, after that a new class called the IACC was created.
The 12m yacht was considered to be an ugly pot bellied yacht, that were very difficult to sail properly (even the pro's considered them to be dangerous when fully loaded). They were also designed to the nth degree and becoming very typeformed and advantaged countries with huge supercomputer and tank testing capabilities which could find that 0.001% performance increase.
The IACC boats were be unknowns and opened the design aspect of the event again. The difference between a 1992 and a 2007 IACC yacht is massive, demonstrating that a lot of design evolution happened despite advances in computer modelling capabilities.
After the AC in 2007 the intention was to start a new class again of 90 foot yachts, but that was overtaken by the politicking of Alinghi and Oracle. GGYC and CNR may now choose a class with which to compete for 2013 (whether it is a totally new class, or an established class will be decided by Mutual Consent - or else we will have another DOG Cup in 2013).

JB

you should be a writer JB, lovely stuff...

You're not being argumentative - you're being ridiculously pedantic. No boat is ever "identical". The 12 metre rule was obviously a way allowing some reasonable creativity - in the same sense as formula 1 car rules apply...etc etc etc.

Getting back to my main point...this whole thing is really about two guys wanting to show the world they have the biggest d**K. Yeah, I agree, great show and fantastic to watch, but no real contest and a waste of money on a grand scale. Essentially it's got to the point of being who's got the biggest toy (which boils down to money), not who is the best sailor.

.

JayBee said...

Victor,

Without wanting to appear argumentative, this is not correct. The Americas Cup has never been sailed in "same boat" format. It has been sailed in "same rule" boats where the yachts were designed to fit within a rule (12m at the time). The yachts were not 12m in length, instead 12m was the result found when certain dimensions of teh yeachts were entered into a mathematical formula. You could trade waterline length for sail area, for stability, for weight etc. The yachts looked similar, but they were never the same. The closest 12m yachts came to being identical was "Challenge 12" and "Australia II" which were 99% identical with the exception of the keel.



The 12m worlds still happens every year and 12m yachts are still a very active class of yacht (just not the Americas Cup class anymore), but again they were never one design. There was an agreement not to alter the designs "once they were built", but there is no rule stopping anyone building a revolutionary 12 yacht, but once built it cannot be modified.

JB

Victor B said...

JayBee said...

America's Cup has never been about 'same boat' march racing. Name one well known 'one design' match racing event!

Actually it was the America's cup (briefly) just before 1983...

There was also the World 12 metre regatta, which originated from an agreement not to alter the designs - now that has gone by the wayside too...due to penis envy.

You still didn't answer my question...did we find out who's got the biggest d**k?

Victor B said...

ridiculously pedantic. No boat is ever "identical". The 12 metre rule was obviously a way allowing some reasonable creativity - in the same sense as formula 1 car rules apply...etc etc etc.

Getting back to my main point...this whole thing is really about two guys wanting to show the world they have the biggest d**K. Yeah, I agree, great show and fantastic to watch, but no real contest and a waste of money on a grand scale. Essentially it's got to the point of being who's got the biggest toy (which boils down to money), not who is the best sailor.

"ridiculously pedantic" - Ouch. Hurts muchly! Not the worst way I have ever been described though.
"No boat is ever "identical"." Laser, 49er, Soling, 420, 470, Windsurfer OD, Tasar, Elliott 6, Tornado, Finn, Europe..... All designed to be identical boats, variation in hull shape is not allowed (i.e. you cannot compete if your hull does not measure against strict standards)

"in the same sense as formula 1 car rules apply" - yet I have never heard anyone refer to F1 as "same car racing".

In effect the two yachts we just saw racing do fit into a rule (just as J yachts, 12m and IACC yachts do).
The rule is..."The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water line; if of more than one mast, they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water line."

America's Cup has always been about ego, this one is no different to any other. Why did Alan Bond want to win the Cup? Originally it was because he was not admitted to the New York Yacht Club. Yep, he spent millions because of a petty gripe. Yet it has become an amazing part of yachting history. Long live the eccentrics who are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

I saw (before you edited your post) that you wanted me to quote my sources! Were you serious??? Nothing I have stated could be considered in any way to be in the public domain. There is a truckload of books you can get on the cup and its history. I would recommend "Keelhauled: Unsportsmanlike Conduct and the America's Cup" by Doug Riggs as a starting point.

And to finally answer the question you insist on repeating "Who has the biggest dick?" The answer is "Me".

JB

Victor B said...
As to whether you have been knowingly using written quotes from these sources and passing them off as your own...

Settle down Victor, these are posts on a forum not published documents. Sheesh!

Squid Lips said...

Has anyone managed to catch any coverage on TV? I haven't even heard it mentioned in the news. I was looking forward to a bit of footage of these boats ripping around. I don't get it, there is tons of coverage of the Sydney to Hobart, Skiff racing gets a couple of hours now and then, but the Amrica's Cup doesn't even rate a mention these days?

It was on Fox 3 last week. You can probably still see some highlights at www.americascup.com