mkseven said...

Look I'm not picking a fight with the wally sailors, wally's have their place and I do admit i've had many enjoyable days of longboarding. However, the immediate comments of "longboards are the answer" is flawed and the same sh!te we've been hearing for years now.

If you're not picking a fight when you call someone's viewpoint on the sport "****e", then what do you say when you ARE picking a fight?

I'd also say that the "shortboards are the answer" is obviously flawed as we've been going that way for years and the sport is now a lot smaller than it used to be. We've been hearing a lot more "longboards are ****e" comments than "longboards are a viable and valuable part of the sport" comments.

To repeat, no one is saying that everyone has to sail longboards; we are just trying to say they have an important place. You yourself enjoyed longboards for years; why not encourage other people to have the fun you had? Yes, you may now have moved to shortboards; I moved the other way, as did many other people.

I find DISM's comments are very interesting, after all he's in the age bracket we need. We need cheap gear, to make the sport easier to learn (there seems to be a very high % of veteran windsurfers can't even carve gybe, something's wrong there) and less "extreme" as despite all the BS, not many people actually do extreme sports.

Oh, and about the remark that people comment on Wallys as they swim past; for one, longboards are faster a hell of a lot of the time than a shortboard that is sitting on shore.

Secondly, I have not made snide remarks about slalom sailors and maybe you should not make smartarse remarks about other sailors if you're trying to build the sport.

Thirdly, while a longboard may not be as fast as a shortboard in strong winds, it still moves more than fast enough to get the average member of the public interested. How many people went sailing on yachts and dinghies in SE Qld and NSW last week? Almost none of them had the same top end speed potential as a longboard, yet the boats are much more popular.

the sport is in no problem overseas... freestyle has got another generation interested... there are kids everywhere doin flakas and spocks, pushing EACH OTHER, they look up to victor, kali, gollito... who have pushed the out of date "stars" like dunks, pritchard, baker out (who suck...) cause what kid wants to look upto a 38yearold... the press needs to ignor these old farts and pull their sponsors...

now u can do an extreme sport in 17knots on a lake.. racing and gps speed sailing are LAME... no kid wants to spend hours sanding fins and studying gps tracks... and not everyone lives near waves

i spent all sumer workin on a crayboat, 30knts plus every second day but no one to sail with... trust me id prefer to sail with kites than buy myself

he is from the ACT never mind him. he doesn't know what he is saying..

who is kali

Barn, I think the groms have respect for those older guys and good on the sponsors for looking after them. It shows the next generation that if they work hard and keep pushing the sport they will be looked after and respected for years to come.

From wave boards to big boards it's all fun, I'll gladly take out my 165 free formula to get a sail in lighter winds. All the different styles of windsurfing are great.

im not gettin angry!! haha when i was 15 (now21)i used to watch the pwa world tour 2000 everyday...cause that was the ltest and greatest, but id try show my mates and they wernt so impressed... pritchard doin stalled forwards and backloops?? same stalled forwards and backloops that they were doin in 1992... i belive those guys have had 2 much respect?? dinos from the jurassic period of windsurfing, sure they pushed the sport, they also took what little sponsorship money that was available from the young guys... they strangeled the sport untill freestyle came and they couldnt keep up with the kids, so they went back to maui and are still doin the same damn bakies and forwards... now freestyle has brought skateboard style moves and a bit more variation.. u dont have to fly to gnarloo or hookipa anymore to push yourself... freestyle started in 1998?? it could have arrived in 1992 and imagine what they would be doin now??
ohh and i am from the act, u can do a flat water ponch on lake burley griffen??? u can also clok 37knots, and sail with 20 other people on a good day... and no kites

stalled backy much harder move than a ponch.

i agree with mkseven... and ill spell my opinion out... in 1992,1995,1997 the sprt was dull, the legends had stopped pushing the limits and were doin what they know... hookipa.. videos were repetition bottom turns and backloops

its the extreme stuff that attracts young ppl to the sport..

freestyle came, boards got easy to sail, sails got colour, pros got younger,flat water lakes became awesome sailing spots. now everyone has ACCESS to an awesome freestyle windsurfing spot..

yell "shuvit 540 diablo" at a random beach in uk and some kid will know what it is... thats the future.. (yell, "cavitation on my asymetric speed foil 17cm at 49knts" haha no kid cares)

nintendo is for girls and drunks, its all about xbox

To add a few on my views to the discsssion my main point would be that windsufing doesn't attract large numbers due to factors outside the control of the sport itself.

Are people still learning to sail? - yes they are. We have been full in every lesson class every weekend of the season, for the last few years. The success rate of participants actually able to sail by the end of the class has been extremely high. This is due to the modern wide boards being well balanced and stable. This was not the case in the old days with old longboards, despite some people's rose tinted view of the old glory days. Many people gave it another go because they saw how easy it is now compared to when they tried years ago. So blaming the modern gear is not the answer to why their is a lack of participation. Reverting to wally type long boards will not help.

The actual take up rate of people buying gear and staying in the sport has remained at the standard rate of about 10%.A figure promoted by the UK's RYA. A previous posters "95%" success rate in the past is highly debateable. It was not the case when we were teaching in the 80's on clubmans and wallys. A 10% take up is going to replace the sailors that leave the sport naturally and maintain its current level of participants.

Why are the remaining 90% of learners not continuing in the sport?
Price
Time
attitude

1) Price - Yes, when some one walks into a shop and is told that it will cost a round $2500 to get a beginner set, they are put off straight away.
But this is not expensive compared with many other sports, if you are serious about doing something. Point one - cyclists will drop $2000 on a bike repeatedly. (yes they can use it regardless of conditions, they can get cheap starter bikes, but the fact remains that the large number of bike riders has not bought down the price of bikes but actually increased it. 10 years ago a reasonable bike for $300 is now $600)

The lack of cheap 2nd hand gear is due to the removal of the old longboards through age deterioration and lack of new gear being purchased. Those that are purchased are not resold because they are so good people keep them, as proven by the fact that despite the number of Go type boards sold in recent years you can't find one for sale as people keep them in the garage for other family and freinds to use. (so much for the arguement that the new boards don't help get new people to try windsurfing - almost everyone we ask to let us sell their Go board says, "no someone in the family" or "my mates" are using it.)

Dollar for dollar the modern gear is less expensive than it was 15 years ago. The problem is the other expenses in life.
EG money was not a problem for the couple who did a course last week, when it came to buy a car - $80000 land rover - but would not pay more than $900 for his wifes new windsurfing gear, nor want to pay for a quiver bag for her to store her gear. It is about priorities in what to spend limited cash on.
The average family today has the mortgage and many a 2nd home mortgage, the 2 car loans, 3 or 4 mobile phone plans, the internet cost, the continual increase in the food and petrol costs and the never ending payments for kids activites. Almost half the monthly bills are on things we did not have in the home 15 to 20 years ago when windsurfing was "huge". A lack of disposable income can be to blame partly, but people will pay to do what they want to do! If it is purely cost ot blame how come the sale of plasma tvs has exploded despite the price tag.

Dropping the price of beginner gear will not happen. Companies would not make more money unless they could double the sales volume instantly, they would lose money and they are not in business to run a loss. They could reduce the cost by cutting the distribution chain but then how would the beginner know what to get, or from where, if it was through direct selling. Would they get the right advice?

2) Time - The modern family does not have the time to take kids places let alone run them around to windsurf. A kid can have a surfboard on a bike or bus and get to the beach but a kid that is sailing needs to have someone run them around, unless they are based at something like a club with storage.
Parents work twice as hard to pay for all the extra costs of living leaving no time for running around. Do you remember your holidays in the 70's & 80's lazing around. Now it seems there is not enough time in the day for all the goings on.

2) attitude - IF you want to do something you will find a way to do it. If it is too expensive you will find a cheap way or find something else to do. But most people simply want to be able to do it now. No learning process, instant go. The people that are attracted to windsurfing are the types that like a challenge, like being outside in the elements and will find a way to continue to do the sport regardless of factors against them. Not all people can or want to do it.

The only way to increase numbers in the sport and keep them would be to remove many of the distractions in life, but this will not happen, so the aim should be to help those that do the sport enjoy there time on the water as best as is possible.

Paul

the internet forums, youtube, more DVD's coming out (and with less angry music) - these must be helping things along somewhat. at least people can see that the sport exists now, where as during the late 80s and 90's it sure wasn't easy to spread the windsurfing gospel, unlike using forums and sharing videos.

I gave my class a video editing assessment where they had to edit up a music video out of about 100 various short windsurfing, kiteboarding, and surfing clips. To my surprise, out of all the wavesailing, huge jumping, looping, freestyle, clips they were given, the most talked about and most used clips were the overhead helicopter shots of the fanatic and neilpryde team blasting across the ocean on slalom/freeride gear, jumping from crest to crest of the swell, and all 28 students used these clips. As much as i like having a dig at it from time to time, going flat out/blasting/speed is where it's at for the average punter, which is probably 80% of the market? The assessment was a bit of a hit so I'm going to use it again next term and see if the response is the same - nothing like a bit of mass marketing

btw - can we please put a ban on the term extreme sports, it is just so uber geigh

thanks Bob

Jez, re "The actual take up rate of people buying gear and staying in the sport has remained at the standard rate of about 10%.A figure promoted by the UK's RYA..... It was not the case when we were teaching in the 80's on clubmans and wallys."

I can fully understand your point of view, which is why I always say people who learn in WA or Botany Bay or other choppy, windy places should get a Go type.

We're running at about the same success rate; about 10% of those still in the country who we have taught over the last couple of years now own their own gear (or in several cases are active members of a uni club and use its gear). One has been the Australian Youth Worlds rep.

The gear that works (or doesn't work) for you in your situation doesn't have to be the same gear that works for other people, in very different water, with very different wind, and different aims.

If you are in a windy place, with a bit of chop, and are charging significant sums for training people who (I assume) have done no sailing, with the aim of making a profit by selling them gear to go BAFfing or whatever, it's only logical that the board for you is different from the board for us.

We are in a light-wind place, with almost no chop, charge less (if at all) and aim to interest people (including many who have never sailed, but also a lot of dinghy sailors of various ages) into doing what we are trying to support ie longboard racing. We find that better rigs on cheaper, tougher, longer boards that go faster in our light winds and stay upwind better, perform better for us for our needs. We have tried the alternatives; they do not work for us in our conditions.

Again, there's the same "one size must fit all" stuff coming through. We don't all have to find the same boards ideal for beginners, when we sail in different conditions for different reasons.

BTW the local commercial school has also got rid of its super-wide boards and moved to narrower Hi Flys, because the super fat boards couldn't get out through the light-air patch just off the school.

On the wider point; those factors (time, money, etc) apply as much or more to dinghy sailing, which has not suffered the same drop in numbers as windsurfing. Many of them apply to surfing, which has not suffered the same drop in numbers as windsurfing. Those same factors apply to kayaking, which is doing very well indeed thank you.

If these factors are the problem, why are Laser fleets (for example) getting record numbers? Why is kayaking doing so well? Why is surfing doing fine?

Stewie likes Windsurfing and computer games and spunky ladies. Nothing else matters to Stewie.

Stewie said...

Stewie likes Windsurfing and computer games and spunky ladies. Nothing else matters to Stewie.

well stewie you are exersizing the mind ,body and soul big guy

Struth passion about the sport is good really good.

I hear what every one is saying about the sport and its all relivant.

I'm one of those 38yo blokes that has gone from the wally on the lake, to getting the wally on a hot day in the park with lots of weight on the nose to get more rocker in the board (helped get over waves not through them) Broke many, many masts in the surf.

We thought we where on the cutting edge when wave boards came out...We made our own boards and a few mates even cut there own sails.

Now we have a new breed of bloody awsome sailers doing stuff we never dreamed possible. But we have to remember that what we think the sport is NOW, probably will not be reflected buy the top sailers in say 20 years.
I recon the sport has moved forward in a positive direction with design and R&D..

BUT a big BUT is we do need to revive the longboard for the family sailors.
I know I keep going back to what was, but we had people coming up to us when we were in the surf with our custom glass boards, asking how can we get into the sport. 90% of them jumped on a wally, or a big old tc beacher and had the grasp of getting from the beach out and back again with a few good pointers on the beach. I still know some still sail short boards now some 20 yeas + down the track.

The days of seeing a family turn up for a day on the lake with a few wallys are very few and far between.
It was great to see the whole family getting out for a go on the wally from the kids to the grandparents..It was a good sport to keep the family together.

Every sport needs variation from the GO Cart throuth to the F1 of the sport.
The next Robby might start on a wally than make the transition to become a top freestyle or wave sailer. who knows.....

BTW Chris.
Put 3 more people down for the wally's at Marmong.

Stewie said...

Stewie likes Windsurfing and computer games and spunky ladies. Nothing else matters to Stewie.

And i like Stewie