Hi folks !

3 questions.

1.
There seems to be a wide consensus about Guy Cribbs' 1/3 rule, i.e, the rear harness line should be at 1/3 of the distance between the mast and the clew end of the boom.
I am not clear, however, about how this distance should be measured : is the distance from the mast along the curved length of the boom or is it the straight-line distance between the mast and the clew end of the boom, i.e. the width of the sail?

2.Also, I hear that for larger sails 7.5 sqmt and over, the position of the rear harness line should be 1/3 as defined above less 2 in. Is it true?

3. We often read that the harness lines position on the boom should be where we can effortlessly hold the boom with one hand and the rig feels almost weightless. i.e, the balance point.. THIS POINT DOES NOT GYBE WITH THE 1/3 rule. Actually, from my own measurement, the 1/3 point is considerably more backwards than the balance point. What is the score on this?

Thank you

Francone

sboardcrazy said...

Francone said...

Hi folks !

3 questions.

1.
There seems to be a wide consensus about Guy Cribbs' 1/3 rule, i.e, the rear harness line should be at 1/3 of the distance between the mast and the clew end of the boom.
I am not clear, however, about how this distance should be measured : is the distance from the mast along the curved length of the boom or is it the straight-line distance between the mast and the clew end of the boom, i.e. the width of the sail?

2.Also, I hear that for larger sails 7.5 sqmt and over, the position of the rear harness line should be 1/3 as defined above less 2 in. Is it true?

3. We often read that the harness lines position on the boom should be where we can effortlessly hold the boom with one hand and the rig feels almost weightless. i.e, the balance point.. THIS POINT DOES NOT GYBE WITH THE 1/3 rule. Actually, from my own measurement, the 1/3 point is considerably more backwards than the balance point. What is the score on this?

Thank you

Francone

I'm pretty sure Guy Cribb says there should be a pull on your front arm and you shouldnt be able to let go with the front hand..
I think the idea is so you cant oversheet .

Cribbys advice is a starting point only.
Every sail and rig setting will have a slightly different sweet spot. But for sails < 7.5m it is a good starting point. Fine tuning has to be done by the sailor. Too much weight on the back hand - harness lines back and vice versa.

Cribbs article is at...

www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/The%20Truth%20About%20Harness%20Lines.pdf

J

if your centre of effort moves back every time a gust hits your sail - and you have to set your harness lines up to deal with that - then you need to have a look at your rig - cos it isnt working!

(unless its a windsurfer one design sail -the C.O.E. moves all over the place with those)

I'm 100% with Reflex on this one, set them so they are balanced, i run my lines at a hands width apart, bit wider on freeride or slalom gear, if a gust comes and there is more power in you back hand, just move you back hand down the boom about an inch or 2 to compinsate and sheet in like a man....

The less effort to sail in a straigh line means more energy for the fun things like jumping and "trying" to rip apart waves..

barn said...

gribbys pretty spot on, but that whole 1/3 thing is just a way for him to sell his silly little measurement rope thingi. (its a piece of shock cord with a mark at 1/3 that u stretch down the sail to set the lines!!)

I sail with the harness lines behind the centre of effort, because when a gust hits the centre of effort always moves back down the boom. so if harness lines are further back u dont need to sheet in extra for the gusts.

If you sail with the lines at the centre of effort and u get hit by a gust then the power moves to your back hand and the sail opens up a little, and your now sailing like a girl.

there should be more distance between your front hand and the lines that the distance between your back hand and the lines..

**you should not be able to sail very far without your front hand on the boom**

Cribby's rule is a starting point only. All sails are different- my 9m sets with lines further forward than my 7.8 (different brands). The rest is personal, if you set the balance point for the gusts you are always oversheeting and killing the power when normally powered. It is natural for the sail to open up slightly when a gust hits because there is a shift in apparent wind. Funny most of the fastest people in the world have their lines set neutral, so they can sail with no hands- pushing the clew away from them in the lulls and sheeting in with the back hand in the gusts. BTW pulling in with the front hand sheets the sail out, so who exactly is it doing all of the sheeting out and sailing like a girl?

i go the other way, if my backhand is pulling to much i move my front line back.

seems to help keep the lines close togther on the boom.

barn said...

gribbys pretty spot on, but that whole 1/3 thing is just a way for him to sell his silly little measurement rope thingi. (its a piece of shock cord with a mark at 1/3 that u stretch down the sail to set the lines!!)

I sail with the harness lines behind the centre of effort, because when a gust hits the centre of effort always moves back down the boom. so if harness lines are further back u dont need to sheet in extra for the gusts.

If you sail with the lines at the centre of effort and u get hit by a gust then the power moves to your back hand and the sail opens up a little, and your now sailing like a girl.

there should be more distance between your front hand and the lines that the distance between your back hand and the lines..

**you should not be able to sail very far without your front hand on the boom**

Whats wrong with sailing like a girl!

pretty sure barn is a better sailor then anyone else who has posted in this thread.

i'm gonna back what he said.


no idea where my lines sit in relation to the 1/3 rule but i generally have it set up fairly neutral to slightly front hand heavy, and longish 28" lines only about 1" appart.

swoosh thats a load of crap (& no im not saying barn isnt a good sailor). Why do so many people in this sport follow like sheep instead of looking into why/how things work.

Wavesails are different in that you can sail a little more front hand loaded because the effort in sail moves more making it neutral when it is windy. That and the fact that the sails handle easier and your lines are together you can easy sheet to correct angle. Barn do you like doing hooked in loops by chance?

Couldn't care less about rules! (Fashion statements.) Have always set front and back attachment points wide apart, at sails balance point.

I just enjoy MY way, and raspberries to anybody who tries to tell me what to do!!

whats wrong with calling them chicks?

Ladies- it's so 70's pornstar, something my dad would say... hmm wait

mkseven said...

swoosh thats a load of crap (& no im not saying barn isnt a good sailor). Why do so many people in this sport follow like sheep instead of looking into why/how things work.

Wavesails are different in that you can sail a little more front hand loaded because the effort in sail moves more making it neutral when it is windy. That and the fact that the sails handle easier and your lines are together you can easy sheet to correct angle. Barn do you like doing hooked in loops by chance?

You could just as easily rephrase that question and ask, why do so many people in this sport have their heads in the sand, and insist on sailing poorly set up gear because it is in their comfort zone?

This isn't a situation where pro's are promoting something (twins/quads/blahblah) to make their sponsor money, its just gear setup.

I was pretty skeptical of the guy cribb setup at first, especially the long harness lines. I was originally sailing 22" lines and it felt perfect for me. I switched to 28" lines and it felt completely retarded, and I almost gave up on them. However stuck with it and a few sessions later they felt 100% natural and not only that its improved my sailing especially control when the wind is strong and my early planing.

I think also sailing slightly front hand heavy also helps keep you upright, and the rig more vertical, resulting in more power instead of back hand heavy setup where you tend towards slumping under the sail.

So no. Not a sheep, thou you sure were quick to assume.

I think the point to make here is that it does depend entirely on which type of rig you sail, how you sail and more importantly personal preference..oh and whether you sail like a girl ^_^

For someone like me who sails wave sails 98% of the time on wave boards and FS boards with very small fins it's entirely ridiculous to have a setup that is back hand biased. Why because you sail a board like that with a lot of front foot pressure and a lot of windward rail pressure....very unlike how you sail a slalom board. Consequently _if_ you run a backhand weighted setup on a board like this when a gust hits you sheet in -> weight up the back leg -> board spins out. Having the a more front hand biased line setting allows you to keep a much more even leg pressure and keep the weight on the rail rather than on the fin.

Slalom is entirely different where you are trying to weight up the fin/leward rail. In this case I think Having a neutral to rear hand biased setup can help you achieve this somewhat.

swoosh said...
You could just as easily rephrase that question and ask, why do so many people in this sport have their heads in the sand, and insist on sailing poorly set up gear because it is in their comfort zone?

This isn't a situation where pro's are promoting something (twins/quads/blahblah) to make their sponsor money, its just gear setup.

I was pretty skeptical of the guy cribb setup at first, especially the long harness lines. I was originally sailing 22" lines and it felt perfect for me. I switched to 28" lines and it felt completely retarded, and I almost gave up on them. However stuck with it and a few sessions later they felt 100% natural and not only that its improved my sailing especially control when the wind is strong and my early planing.

I think also sailing slightly front hand heavy also helps keep you upright, and the rig more vertical, resulting in more power instead of back hand heavy setup where you tend towards slumping under the sail.

So no. Not a sheep, thou you sure were quick to assume.

im not assuming no, and you could easily rephrase what you said originally that barn is the best sailor here yet im guessing you havent sailed with the majority. You have assumed that someone that is a good sailor has a good understanding of what works- it's something they have to work on because they often make anything work. Peter Hart, cribby etc- these guys are hardly the best sailors yet they can probably tell you more about peoples (even pro's) stance than what the person sails it can.

Barn is a better sailor- i'll back what (whom you believe) the better sailor says tends to indicate sheep.

For the rest of it, you can slump under the lines the other way also. Sometimes you have to be a little bit aggressive in holding your stance, particularly when using waist harness.

We are not talking massive movements in rig here- you get pulled out of shape by the gust you dont yank or muscle the sail back in, but gradual sheeting in trying to keep the sail relatively still.

It is personal- but also depends on gear. I can sail all day on wave sails, in and out of the harness- they are designed to be softer. Try an imbalance on a powerful race sail and you'll be feeling it pretty quick.

choco said...

who uses harness lines nowdays anyway?...wimps whatever your comfortable with works

finally an epilogue