Well, after listening to the feedback on the previous post, I have gone back to the drawing board. Here's another concept for dealing with headwinds...

A typical outing here on Kootenay Lake involves a drastic change in wind speed and direction, thus my fixation on headwinds. For a variety of reasons I prefer the kneeling position to the prone position (no need to get wet, comfort, endurance, paddle efficiency...) when in headwinds, yet one of the problems with kneeling has been that when you lower your hand position on the paddle the top hand has virtually no control since there is no handle. The wrist and forearm are also put in an uncomfortable position. No telescoping paddle adjusts enough, not to mention that telescoping paddles are heavy, more fragile, and slow to adjust - ruling telecoping paddles out for this application. So why not just have another handle - an adjustable lightweight handle that stays out of the way for upright paddling, yet is exactly where you need it for paddling in a kneeling position.

Getting off our stomachs and on our knees (when in headwinds or dicey situations) increases comfort and endurance immeasureably.

looks like the reverse dildo

9.5/10 for trying mate. But I think most of just want to stand up. Paddling on the knees is a killer, and is only done in short bursts usually, and you can just adjust your grip on the normal shaft, without the "dildo" attachment.... Sorry, but Matt kind of started it !! But in truth, you started it with your colour selection of the alternate handle ! Gold !

I think you spell "colour" as "color" in Canada and America.

to knee paddle really cramps up my legs. its like pins and needles. prone paddlers don't get this because when they knee they move back and forth

i would prefer some kind of pop up seat and a ski paddle or a oci type seat setup and oc paddle if i came up against a situation where i had to forsake standing up. these positions are much stronger than kneeing

may be an 'attachment' to the sup paddle for oc paddle conversion and oc1 like seat that maybe inflates and is held with velco or something.
that would be more the go i reckon

cheers

log man said...

laceys lane said...

to knee paddle really cramps up my legs. its like pins and needles. prone paddlers don't get this because when they knee they move back and forth

i would prefer some kind of pop up seat and a ski paddle or a oci type seat setup and oc paddle if i came up against a situation where i had to forsake standing up. these positions are much stronger than kneeing

may be an 'attachment' to the sup paddle for oc paddle conversion and oc1 like seat that maybe inflates and is held with velco or something.
that would be more the go i reckon

cheers

Maybe I'm used to the pins and needles but I paddle with a double ender paddle on my knees 100% of the time in the surf. I recon it's easier. There.... I've said it!

well, for me, my legs are numb when i try to stand up.


logman i with you about the knockers. this forum is about ideas, yet it just deleveloped into a smartarse's forum where people seem to hang out for somone they can give s### without any real opinions or ideas they might have to contribute to the post.
yet they are the first to complain when the breeze is slow

In terms of the pins and needles from kneeling - I get them too after about 10 minutes. Thus a saddle-type arrangement similar to the one I proposed before (the currrent iteration is even more comfortable - I will post it soon). Just try it with a pillow in your living room and you will see that if your butt is supporting your weight the popliteal veins/arteries in the back of your knees don't have pressure put on them and your legs don't get the needles, plus it's much more comfortable overall.

I have been getting some excellent feedback on the paddle design elsewhere (notably from some paddle manufacturers), so the hecklers in the background of this forum don't bother me at all.

lacey said
logman i with you about the knockers. this forum is about ideas, yet it just deleveloped into a smartarse's forum where people seem to hang out for somone they can give s### without any real opinions or ideas they might have to contribute to the post.
yet they are the first to complain when the breeze is slow

i'm sorry lacey for seeing the funny side, and the brezze is only slow when your on your knees

G'day Kajgyr,the paddle handle seems like a reasonable idea for those of us who are accessory orientated.Simplicity is the thing I like most about surfing,and sup, once you have your board and wetsuits ,paddle etc all you need to do is add wax and water.Sure you can get lots of add ons but there is not really a need to,want to is a difference kettle of fish.I bought lots of cold weather gear(wetties,boots,gloves)because I want to be comfortable.If the paddle handle helps you're comfort I say go for it.It is probably not something I would buy,mainly because I don't want to spend time on my knees(no pun intended).If I seriously get caught out and need to get back I firstly would go for prone paddle,and on the knees as a last resort.Your location probably calls for different logic.Sometimes you have to consider the source,I admit to saying on the arrival of the under 8ft surfboard,"Ah they are only a fad,they won't last" .Most of the time I wish they hadn't.
By the way the area you are paddling in looks really beautiful....Cheers

waxer said...

G'day Kajgyr,the paddle handle seems like a reasonable idea for those of us who are accessory orientated.Simplicity is the thing I like most about surfing,and sup, once you have your board and wetsuits ,paddle etc all you need to do is add wax and water.Sure you can get lots of add ons but there is not really a need to,want to is a difference kettle of fish.I bought lots of cold weather gear(wetties,boots,gloves)because I want to be comfortable.If the paddle handle helps you're comfort I say go for it.It is probably not something I would buy,mainly because I don't want to spend time on my knees(no pun intended).If I seriously get caught out and need to get back I firstly would go for prone paddle,and on the knees as a last resort.Your location probably calls for different logic.Sometimes you have to consider the source,I admit to saying on the arrival of the under 8ft surfboard,"Ah they are only a fad,they won't last" .Most of the time I wish they hadn't.
By the way the area you are paddling in looks really beautiful....Cheers

You make some good points, and considering the source is right. I live in the same area, and conditions go from calm to windy in a very short time and it happens frequently on the Kootenay lake. The conditions get you thinking sometimes about alternatives. I think many of the comments on these threads are coming from those with a surfing bias. Paddling prone is only an alternative in certain situations and when you are faced with a consistent headwind, going prone isn't always going to cut the mustard when you are literally several miles from where you need to be. Some racing/touring boards have instep decks which make paddling prone very difficult as well. I would have a very difficult time lying down to paddle on mine.

I love SUP because of the simplicity and prefer the stand up position to kneeling or sitting, but sometimes getting low is the best way to go when you are in a head wind and need to switch things up. Like you, I only go on my knees as a last resort, but after a few hours paddling, going for an alternative position is more viable if there are innovations to make it worth it.

Gassa said...

still thick a paddle that can de changed into a double header would be a good way to go.

There was a guy on this forum, a couple of years ago, who makes his own paddles and extends the handle into a kind of micro blade. He sits down and uses it as a double-ended paddle.

During a downwinder my mate has sat and used an ordinary paddle as a double-ender. The acceleration is impressive.

Aloha Kajgyr,

I thought I would take the chance to weigh in on how I solved this problem. I too was faced with this same dilemma a couple years ago. How to handle paddling in a headwind, and more specifically how to handle paddling safely in unpredictable wind conditions in the open ocean. Living in South Maui one of my favorite things to do is whale watching from kayaks. About three years ago I purchased my first SUP board and was instantly hooked. First chance I got I paddled out and started whale watching. The experience was exhilarating, the smaller vessel and the standing position really added a new dimension that was totally missing in the kayak. However, I soon came to learn how limited the SUP board was compared to the kayak. Conditions that were totally manageable in the kayak were exhausting and becoming potentially unsafe on the SUP. For one, following whales doesn't lend itself well to what I call the "rule of the wind", which is to say that you must always paddle a SUP in the upwind direction on the outbound leg of your journey. Being caught downwind of your launch is only made worse the farther you are from shore when the wind comes up. This is a hard learned lesson that I paid for several times before I came up with my solution.

What I ended up doing is a lot more like the conclusions you made in your first video. A double bladed paddle will do a lot more work with less effort than a single bladed paddle. Not only do you get the benefit of the lower body position and reduced wind profile, you get improved balance due to the double blade not crossing over as well as the increased cadence and power of two blades. Being totally satisfied with my carbon SUP paddle I was intent on solving this problem, but with several criteria. First, it had to be able to be used with existing SUP paddles. I didn't see the need to re-make an entire SUP paddle. Second, it had to be integral to the paddle. I didn't want to stow a paddle blade on the board or on my person. In addition, stopping to spend more than one second re-configuring the paddle was not an option. Last, it had to be easily removable without damaging the SUP paddle or requiring permanent modification. It was important that it be an accessory to the paddle and be able to be removed quickly and easily if not needed for the situation or conditions.

After messing around with a variety of designs I settled on a rotating mountable reinforced carbon fiber blade. Designed to mount on the handle end of the shaft, our design, dubbed the "Maui Blade" conforms to all the criteria listed above. It mounts via a set of custom machined Delrin nylon clamps, it can be removed with an Allen wrench and just two bolts, in under a thirty seconds. It has a specially designed, precision machined, patented rotating mount that allows the blade to rotate a full 360 degrees about the handle. Extending the blade outward from the handle for double bladed paddling or downward for standing paddling. In this way you can have a double bladed paddle for seated or kneeling paddling, or rotate the blade down and out of the way for standing paddling. Keeping the all the weight of the paddle blade below the handle allows for a very balanced paddle feel in the standing position while allowing unobstructed access to the SUP stroke.

Precision machining the rotating mount from solid billet aluminum allowed us to mount a stainless bearing and spring loaded pin lock in the rotating mechanism. The result is smooth glide that allows the blade to be rotated to either position with just an extension of the finger to push the release button and a flick of he wrist. The blade is constructed of three layers of carbon fiber reinforced by a specially designed aluminum plate molded into the blade. This makes for a lightweight yet incredibly strong and durable blade. Please check out the web site for detailed pics and more explanation. evokai.com/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi

I will say this, keep up with the ideas, don't let the detractors get to you. The dummies that jump on your thread with negative one word comments aren't worth your time. Rest assured they have never taken the risk of inventing anything of their own. You aren't the only person seeing merit with this sitting/standing, headwind safety issue and SUP, in fact there are a bunch of new boards this year that are made specifically for sitting and standing, take a look at www.liquidlogickayaks.com/versa.cfm and web.me.com/imaginesurf/eng/wizard.html for just two examples. This should signal that there is a lot of room left for innovation and new ideas in SUP. From my perspective I see a couple different populations of SUP paddlers. There are the people like me who are into SUP because it brings them closer to their passion, mine is whales, for others it might be fitness, fishing, or just having fun on the water. These are the people that are open to ideas like yours and mine. They are willing to try anything that makes the experience more enjoyable. And then there are those that are into SUP only because it is is SUP. They are convinced that the only way to SUP is the way they do do it, and that everyone who doesn't do it their way is either crazy or stupid. My advice is don't bother with those people, you will never change their minds, so don't waste the effort trying. There are plenty of people in the first group, probably far more than you expect. How do I know? I meet them every time I paddle, they're the people that paddle up to me and say "wow that's a great idea." I just smile and hand them my paddle and say, "here, give it a try."

Best Wishes,
Jon Hartman
Inventor & Founder
Evokai Paddles

evokai said...

Aloha Kajgyr,

I thought I would take the chance to weigh in on how I solved this problem. I too was faced with this same dilemma a couple years ago. How to handle paddling in a headwind, and more specifically how to handle paddling safely in unpredictable wind conditions in the open ocean. Living in South Maui one of my favorite things to do is whale watching from kayaks. About three years ago I purchased my first SUP board and was instantly hooked. First chance I got I paddled out and started whale watching. The experience was exhilarating, the smaller vessel and the standing position really added a new dimension that was totally missing in the kayak. However, I soon came to learn how limited the SUP board was compared to the kayak. Conditions that were totally manageable in the kayak were exhausting and becoming potentially unsafe on the SUP. For one, following whales doesn't lend itself well to what I call the "rule of the wind", which is to say that you must always paddle a SUP in the upwind direction on the outbound leg of your journey. Being caught downwind of your launch is only made worse the farther you are from shore when the wind comes up. This is a hard learned lesson that I paid for several times before I came up with my solution.

What I ended up doing is a lot more like the conclusions you made in your first video. A double bladed paddle will do a lot more work with less effort than a single bladed paddle. Not only do you get the benefit of the lower body position and reduced wind profile, you get improved balance due to the double blade not crossing over as well as the increased cadence and power of two blades. Being totally satisfied with my carbon SUP paddle I was intent on solving this problem, but with several criteria. First, it had to be able to be used with existing SUP paddles. I didn't see the need to re-make an entire SUP paddle. Second, it had to be integral to the paddle. I didn't want to stow a paddle blade on the board or on my person. In addition, stopping to spend more than one second re-configuring the paddle was not an option. Last, it had to be easily removable without damaging the SUP paddle or requiring permanent modification. It was important that it be an accessory to the paddle and be able to be removed quickly and easily if not needed for the situation or conditions.

After messing around with a variety of designs I settled on a rotating mountable reinforced carbon fiber blade. Designed to mount on the handle end of the shaft, our design, dubbed the "Maui Blade" conforms to all the criteria listed above. It mounts via a set of custom machined Delrin nylon clamps, it can be removed with an Allen wrench and just two bolts, in under a thirty seconds. It has a specially designed, precision machined, patented rotating mount that allows the blade to rotate a full 360 degrees about the handle. Extending the blade outward from the handle for double bladed paddling or downward for standing paddling. In this way you can have a double bladed paddle for seated or kneeling paddling, or rotate the blade down and out of the way for standing paddling. Keeping the all the weight of the paddle blade below the handle allows for a very balanced paddle feel in the standing position while allowing unobstructed access to the SUP stroke.

Precision machining the rotating mount from solid billet aluminum allowed us to mount a stainless bearing and spring loaded pin lock in the rotating mechanism. The result is smooth glide that allows the blade to be rotated to either position with just an extension of the finger to push the release button and a flick of he wrist. The blade is constructed of three layers of carbon fiber reinforced by a specially designed aluminum plate molded into the blade. This makes for a lightweight yet incredibly strong and durable blade. Please check out the web site for detailed pics and more explanation. evokai.com/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi

I will say this, keep up with the ideas, don't let the detractors get to you. The dummies that jump on your thread with negative one word comments aren't worth your time. Rest assured they have never taken the risk of inventing anything of their own. You aren't the only person seeing merit with this sitting/standing, headwind safety issue and SUP, in fact there are a bunch of new boards this year that are made specifically for sitting and standing, take a look at www.liquidlogickayaks.com/versa.cfm and web.me.com/imaginesurf/eng/wizard.html for just two examples. This should signal that there is a lot of room left for innovation and new ideas in SUP. From my perspective I see a couple different populations of SUP paddlers. There are the people like me who are into SUP because it brings them closer to their passion, mine is whales, for others it might be fitness, fishing, or just having fun on the water. These are the people that are open to ideas like yours and mine. They are willing to try anything that makes the experience more enjoyable. And then there are those that are into SUP only because it is is SUP. They are convinced that the only way to SUP is the way they do do it, and that everyone who doesn't do it their way is either crazy or stupid. My advice is don't bother with those people, you will never change their minds, so don't waste the effort trying. There are plenty of people in the first group, probably far more than you expect. How do I know? I meet them every time I paddle, they're the people that paddle up to me and say "wow that's a great idea." I just smile and hand them my paddle and say, "here, give it a try."

Best Wishes,
Jon Hartman
Inventor & Founder
Evokai Paddles

ok, now what about a niffy seat set up- something out of the way when supping,but is easy to setup, has some foot holds and fits any board???????????/
cheers

As per my previous post, emphasise it is STAND UP PADDLE - nothing else.
Remember that post from France with the ropes attached to the rear of the Sup to the waist of the paddler, at least he was standing up.

How much wind resistance does the paddle present in the folded position?. High end double paddles are offset for that reason aren't they?

Evokai - Looks like you're up to some great stuff - I like how refined your design is, and functional. I'm glad you pointed it out, as I was about to waste some time looking into something similar. Needless to say, we are speaking to a similar target market, so there could be some synergy there.

It's obvious that since Paddleboarding is a nascent sport there will be a lot of changes - all of which will broaden the horizons of paddleboarding and not restrict a single thing. Coming from a kayaking background, I keep telling people paddleboarding offers everything kayaking does, and then some. I think the horizons of the sport have yet to be realized, and that is exciting. If some people don't want to partake in the many possibilities that's fine too - I just don't want to be held back for fear of the cool factor. It's ironic, because many non-paddleboarders think SUP looks goofy, so I never took it for granted I would up my coolness quotient by paddlebaording. I've brought designs in other sports to market, and it's always the same dynamic - some luddites who grouse about change and others who embrace it. Some sports like windsurfing and mountain biking are hugely open to innovation, whereas snowboarding and (apparently) paddleboarding can be realms of fixed notions.

evokai said...

Scotty88 said...

As per my previous post, emphasise it is STAND UP PADDLE - nothing else.
Remember that post from France with the ropes attached to the rear of the Sup to the waist of the paddler, at least he was standing up.

These replies always make me laugh. Feeling threatened? Lighten up. This is about recreation and having fun on the water. I could also emphasize its PADDLE BOARDING - which makes no mention of a specific paddling position. You wouldn't say "its a Mountain Bike" therefore you can only ride one IN THE MOUNTAINS. That's silly. About as silly as you sound insisting that there is only one way to paddle board. Get over the semantics. A name is a name - nothing else.

Again I emphasise this sport is STAND up paddle hence the forum heading of STAND up paddle.