Shanty1 said..

Craig66 said..

Shanty1 said..

garymalmgren said..
1) Is the Top Hat 25 fit to take on a Solo non-stop unassisted circumnavigation of Australia? If not what boats would you suggest that wouldn't be to hard to sail.

2) would I require more sailing experience? ( I have a lot of experience with navigation and steaming motorboats long distance)
3) What companies would you suggest to ask for sponsorship?

1. A Top Hat is FIT for the job but you will need to LOAD IT UP. therefore it will be heavy and SLOW
2. If you are planning to leave in Feb 2020, with and estimated 6 to 8 weeks refit before you go.
How much sailing time do you think you can put in before you cast off? a couple of weeks?
You ask if you need MORE sailing experience when you don't have any yet.
You will be sailing coastal almost all of the way. When do you think you will be able to sleep? Non-stop means non-stop.
3. getting sponsorship for even famous well established sailors is a long drawn out process. Getting anyone interested in paying up by Feb 2020 is a really big ask. But try Whitworth's.

Get a boat. Top hat if it suits your fancy and budget. learn to sail and handle her. take it easy and take 2 or 3 years to sail around Oz.
There is an adventure for you.
What's the rush?

gary

Hi sorry for the late reply. The true is after reading all the Jesse Martin, Jessica Watson, Jon sanders and the like. I have always wanted to do a solo nonstop circumnavigation of the world. At the moment i simply don't have the money nor the experience in sailing keelboats for this ( I sailed a sabot and laser for a couple years but that not a keelboat). I just want to do something that is something not many people have done before. If I succeed at this dream then maybe I will be able to do a non-stop around the world trip.
Thanks for your reply
Mick

Jessica Watson was very lucky to survive the encounter with Silver Yang, talk about things that go "bump" in the night,

Indeed she was I am a fan of Jessica Watson but here are some things that could have been done better. She was 13 nautical miles east of point lookout. That is in the middle of a shipping channel and also a trawling ground. She was sleeping for 2 hours before her collision. What I also find concerning is that she said she was doing 6 knots at the time. This means if the wind changed at the boat started sailing for the shore. She could have very nearly been on the rocks at point lookout. If it where me I would want to go about 70 miles dead east. This will get me out of both trawling grounds and shipping channel. It will also mean prevelent SE winds will mean I am on a broad reach. I would then pick up speed with waves behind me and also going outside the Great Barrier Reef. Coming inside the reef through the raine island entrance.

I have been thinking this trip through.
Kind regards,
Mick

G'day Mick,
Best of luck to you and your dream, you're doing the research and asking questions before you leave, that's smart. For reference, I'd be working on the problem the opposite way to you.
You've picked a journey and a boat (great boats by the way) and now you're planning the journey around the boat.
I would've picked the journey and not a boat. I would have completed my planning of the journey and then with the outputs of that planning I would then select the most optimal boat I could afford.

I do agree that a Top Hat are tough little boats, and I think it would be a bucket list thing to do. But as you allude to, non stop is a LOT different to cruising solo.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't do it, but man that's a huge call.
I don't know, but I am assuming the successful Top Hat voyages, or any little boat for that matter, was because they stopped along the way. Asking a light displacement boat like a Top Hat to be provisioned for a non stop circumnavigation is a big ask.

I'd be trying to talk to people that have done long distance passage planning before. Why don't you contact Jess? Or, if you ask him nicely, maybe Andy on here could shed some light on how much weight he needed for his adventures?
I'd first work out my inventory, spares, food everything. Then work out the corresponding weight religiously. Carrying enough water alone is going to weigh a fair bit. Then, I'd buy a m3 of cheap soil , fill a ton of sand bags, load the equivalent weight into a Top hat just like you would for your trip, then go sailing for some short overnight hops.

Does the boat handling become so degraded it becomes dangerous?
Or more importantly, is the handling so impacted that crew fatigue becomes a major concern? Sleeping in 20 min bursts get's exhausting after a couple of days, let alone maintaining the boat or sailing in foul weather. Crew fatigue is a really big deal on a trip like this. You'll need a good auto helm, (as you alluded to, a wind vane is not optimal for lee shore sailing around a continent) and if the boat handles like a pig it will be chewing lots pf power, which means more batterys and charging systems. I've got 400ah, and I'm running the diesel every 24 hours for an hour min when offshore solo. Admittedly I have crap like a fridge, but the point is its logical to generate the details first, like a detailed power requirements plan, spares plan, and inventory planning before I would pick the poor boat you're going to ask to do it. This for me is one of the hidden joys of the mighty S&S 34, is this ability to be loaded to the gunnels and still happily sail for days without exhausting its crew.

A trip with planned stops would change everything. I am referencing the above on your desire to do it non stop. And don't forget that lee shore sailing is not the same thing as a deep water passage, much bigger risks. I'd really advocate stopping a few times for your first trip, but best of luck to you in your endeavours !
Cheers,
SB

shaggybaxter said..

Shanty1 said..

Craig66 said..

Shanty1 said..

garymalmgren said..
1) Is the Top Hat 25 fit to take on a Solo non-stop unassisted circumnavigation of Australia? If not what boats would you suggest that wouldn't be to hard to sail.

2) would I require more sailing experience? ( I have a lot of experience with navigation and steaming motorboats long distance)
3) What companies would you suggest to ask for sponsorship?

1. A Top Hat is FIT for the job but you will need to LOAD IT UP. therefore it will be heavy and SLOW
2. If you are planning to leave in Feb 2020, with and estimated 6 to 8 weeks refit before you go.
How much sailing time do you think you can put in before you cast off? a couple of weeks?
You ask if you need MORE sailing experience when you don't have any yet.
You will be sailing coastal almost all of the way. When do you think you will be able to sleep? Non-stop means non-stop.
3. getting sponsorship for even famous well established sailors is a long drawn out process. Getting anyone interested in paying up by Feb 2020 is a really big ask. But try Whitworth's.

Get a boat. Top hat if it suits your fancy and budget. learn to sail and handle her. take it easy and take 2 or 3 years to sail around Oz.
There is an adventure for you.
What's the rush?

gary

Hi sorry for the late reply. The true is after reading all the Jesse Martin, Jessica Watson, Jon sanders and the like. I have always wanted to do a solo nonstop circumnavigation of the world. At the moment i simply don't have the money nor the experience in sailing keelboats for this ( I sailed a sabot and laser for a couple years but that not a keelboat). I just want to do something that is something not many people have done before. If I succeed at this dream then maybe I will be able to do a non-stop around the world trip.
Thanks for your reply
Mick

Jessica Watson was very lucky to survive the encounter with Silver Yang, talk about things that go "bump" in the night,

Indeed she was I am a fan of Jessica Watson but here are some things that could have been done better. She was 13 nautical miles east of point lookout. That is in the middle of a shipping channel and also a trawling ground. She was sleeping for 2 hours before her collision. What I also find concerning is that she said she was doing 6 knots at the time. This means if the wind changed at the boat started sailing for the shore. She could have very nearly been on the rocks at point lookout. If it where me I would want to go about 70 miles dead east. This will get me out of both trawling grounds and shipping channel. It will also mean prevelent SE winds will mean I am on a broad reach. I would then pick up speed with waves behind me and also going outside the Great Barrier Reef. Coming inside the reef through the raine island entrance.

I have been thinking this trip through.
Kind regards,
Mick

G'day Mick,
Best of luck to you and your dream, you're doing the research and asking questions before you leave, that's smart. For reference, I'd be working on the problem the opposite way to you.
You've picked a journey and a boat (great boats by the way) and now you're planning the journey around the boat.
I would've picked the journey and not a boat. I would have completed my planning of the journey and then with the outputs of that planning I would then select the most optimal boat I could afford.

I do agree that a Top Hat are tough little boats, and I think it would be a bucket list thing to do. But as you allude to, non stop is a LOT different to cruising solo.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't do it, but man that's a huge call.
I don't know, but I am assuming the successful Top Hat voyages, or any little boat for that matter, was because they stopped along the way. Asking a light displacement boat like a Top Hat to be provisioned for a non stop circumnavigation is a big ask.

I'd be trying to talk to people that have done long distance passage planning before. Why don't you contact Jess? Or, if you ask him nicely, maybe Andy on here could shed some light on how much weight he needed for his adventures?
I'd first work out my inventory, spares, food everything. Then work out the corresponding weight religiously. Carrying enough water alone is going to weigh a fair bit. Then, I'd buy a m3 of cheap soil , fill a ton of sand bags, load the equivalent weight into a Top hat just like you would for your trip, then go sailing for some short overnight hops.

Does the boat handling become so degraded it becomes dangerous?
Or more importantly, is the handling so impacted that crew fatigue becomes a major concern? Sleeping in 20 min bursts get's exhausting after a couple of days, let alone maintaining the boat or sailing in foul weather. Crew fatigue is a really big deal on a trip like this. You'll need a good auto helm, (as you alluded to, a wind vane is not optimal for lee shore sailing around a continent) and if the boat handles like a pig it will be chewing lots pf power, which means more batterys and charging systems. I've got 400ah, and I'm running the diesel every 24 hours for an hour min when offshore solo. Admittedly I have crap like a fridge, but the point is its logical to generate the details first, like a detailed power requirements plan, spares plan, and inventory planning before I would pick the poor boat you're going to ask to do it. This for me is one of the hidden joys of the mighty S&S 34, is this ability to be loaded to the gunnels and still happily sail for days without exhausting its crew.

A trip with planned stops would change everything. I am referencing the above on your desire to do it non stop. And don't forget that lee shore sailing is not the same thing as a deep water passage, much bigger risks. I'd really advocate stopping a few times for your first trip, but best of luck to you in your endeavours !
Cheers,
SB

Thanks mate, you have some practice advice I definitely will think about it. S&s 34s are still on the cards, I think I will pm Andy. The soil idea is definitely going to happen.
Thanks
mick

Some good advice and in general people saying in a nice way take time and do it properly.
What is your budget and timeline?
Do you even know what to put in your budget? Safety equipment AND how to use it. Insurance, will someone even insure you. Spares , emergency steering , epirb,AIS , the list goes on and on.
There is now way you will buy a boat ready to go. 8-10 weeks to get it ready you say. Is that just working on the boat or is that with a job.
How many people have succeeded. How many have failed or nearly died trying.
It's easy to say I would have done this or that but when sleep deprivation, dehydration and injuries happen you will fall asleep for longer than you wanted.
Hardcore French Gauloise smoking men have gone mad and been reduced to tears, AND Tracey Edward's solo sailing. Alex Thomson on Hugo bumped into the Caribbean because he was asleep,that's sleep deprivation.

You are talking about potentially months at sea.
You have NO experience sailing!!!
You might die or risk the lives of others coming to help you.
Maybe look into some other adventures.

Shanty1 said..

tarquin1 said..
Some good advice and in general people saying in a nice way take time and do it properly.
What is your budget and timeline?
Do you even know what to put in your budget? Safety equipment AND how to use it. Insurance, will someone even insure you. Spares , emergency steering , epirb,AIS , the list goes on and on.
There is now way you will buy a boat ready to go. 8-10 weeks to get it ready you say. Is that just working on the boat or is that with a job.
How many people have succeeded. How many have failed or nearly died trying.
It's easy to say I would have done this or that but when sleep deprivation, dehydration and injuries happen you will fall asleep for longer than you wanted.
Hardcore French Gauloise smoking men have gone mad and been reduced to tears, AND Tracey Edward's solo sailing. Alex Thomson on Hugo bumped into the Caribbean because he was asleep,that's sleep deprivation.

You are talking about potentially months at sea.
You have NO experience sailing!!!
You might die or risk the lives of others coming to help you.
Maybe look into some other adventures.

Hi thanks for your concern. To be honest with you I am most likely going to leave September 2020 this will be better weather conditions (in theory that is!). Your right I don't have and keelboat experience. What I do have is dinghy sailing experience a boat like a top hat is apparently just like a dinghy with a Jib. I will do some courses buy a boat and just sail it and teach myself. Can't be too hard can it. Something like Alex Thompson's Hugo boss was probably doing 25 knots at the time. A top hat is going to be doing about 3-5knots. Let's do some maths 5knots an hour divided by 5 (20mins is 1/5 of hour). This means if I went to sleep for 20 minutes at a time I would move about 1 nauticle mile. Even at night I would surely see a ship or boat that is one nautical mile away. Especially with instruments like AIS and Radar. I know what you mean but we all have to take risks in life. Push ourselves. Do something that being an old person I could look back on satisfied with what I achieved in my lifetime. If I die on my journey ( will do all means not to die). I don't have a wife, kids or any direct family. That will be effected to the extent of Andrew McAuleys family. I would also of died living my dream. I would rather that than have worked my whole life then dieing in hospital with cancer. I am not trying to call you out. I can absolutely see where you are coming from. For the experience thing I know some experience is required. But Jesse Martin has very little experience. He sailed with another guy halfway across the pacific. " Dave could just about sail the boat by himself I just helped out where I could" that is what he said. Then he sailed Lionheart (his s&s 34) for about one hour before setting off round the world. I hope you understand where I am coming from. I know most people will probably be against me on this one but "oh well".
Thank you everyone for your reply's if anyone has anymore information just post it or pm me. All information is welcome
thanks
mick

Yes lets do some maths, or in your case go back to school and learn how to do mathematics

"Let's do some maths 5knots an hour divided by 5 ***** (20mins is 1/5 of hour) *****. This means if I went to sleep for 20 minutes at a time I would move about 1 nauticle mile."

Or is it I that is missing something here? 5 x 20 = 100 minutes, when I went to school there was only 60 minutes in an hour.




Add your 1.666 Nautical to another vessels 8.333 Nautical miles.




So your 20 minute nap now has a range of 10 Nautical miles (aprox 18.5km )

Just saying

You don't have to wait till you've got your yacht to test how you'll go single handing on a long non-stop journey. You can practice now.

1. Ditch your current bed and sleep on a narrow 3-4 inch mattress. Set your egg timer for 20 minutes. Every 20 minutes get up, walk outside for 5 minutes, then go back to bed. Repeat night after night. When you're exhausted, catch up with sleep during the day, when others have a better chance of seeing you. Be prepared for hallucinations and difficulty making even simple decisions after a few days and while you adjust.
2. Work out your diet on board and live on this at home. No extra food, no daily shopping. Take your lunch to work. Yep, keep working while testing your sea-going lifestyle. Maybe start this a couple of days before you have days off so you're not too much of a safety liability at work - so you hit the 48-96 hour point during days off in case you have to stop the test and sleep a day to recouperate.
3. Cook all your food on a camping stove.
4. No tv and internet/phone one day per week.
5. Hand wash clothes (except your tug work gear). Use only your allocated daily quantity of fresh water. Wash yourself, clothes etc in salt water.

Get the picture Mick? This isn't my idea, it's a strategy recommended for anyone embarking on a challenge like you are proposing. How realistic you make it depends on how committed you are to realistically prepare for your trip. E.g. you could partition off a section of your room/flat/house the size of a Top Hat. Store all your clothes, personal items, safety and communications gear, cooking gear, toilet bucket etc in this space and live within it whenever you are at home, except when you empty the toilet bucket into the house toilet. Hang your washing up to dry in this area.

Australia is a beautiful place. Personally I'd think it a waste for you not to stop in some fabulous places and enjoy/experience it. However, it's your choice and generally people on this page will support your right to pursue your own dream. However, expect some challenging comments if you're proposing to set off inadequately prepared. A Top Hat is not a big dinghy. It is easy to learn to sail - badly. It takes a lot more time and experience to learn how to sail well and wisely. For all that you are currently somewhat alone in the world at this time, it doesn't necessarily follow that your best course of action is to make yourself even more socially and geographically isolated:)

I'd suggest that you buy your Top Hat, get to know the boat and how to sail it. Do a couple of short solo trips, making them longer as your confidence and experience develops, then consider what type of longer challenge you want to plan.

Sectorsteve said..
Regarding storage on my th. I can do about 400 bucks worth of groceries and still have room for more. Ample room all through the boat. Under v Berth. Netting in galley. Cupboards under sink. Port and starboard under saloon. Plus keel.
Plenty.

I know you probably haven't checked this (although you may have as your trip is coming up) but about how much weight could you add. Without the boat becoming to sluggish that it becomes dangerous.

So you have to be in Perth this time next year for work.
Join a YC where you are ,learn to sail by crewing in races ,go to Perth and buy a boat there . Plenty of cheap ones and circumnavigate from there.
Whatever happened to the bloke who was going to sail/ motor a Mac Gregor 26 up the west coast of WA a few years back . Have I asked this before?

what about engine, do you really need it for circumnavigation
person I know sailed around the world on 25 footer home made with no engine

Charriot said..
what about engine, do you really need it for circumnavigation
person I know sailed around the world on 25 footer home made with no engine

Nope. Don't plan to stop anywhere. Won't have enough fuel to make any difference really.

I don't really understand the concern over the Top Hat just being like big dinghy because having sailed dinghys years ago and small keel boats now I think the keel boats are much easier and forgiving and you don't get wet

I think someone with dinghy experience could sail a keel boat without any drama but I am not sure how the average keel boat sailor would go in a dinghy

Regards Don

Shanty1 said..

Donk107 said..
I don't really understand the concern over the Top Hat just being like big dinghy because having sailed dinghys years ago and small keel boats now I think the keel boats are much easier and forgiving and you don't get wet
E
I think someone with dinghy experience could sail a keel boat without any drama but I am not sure how the average keel boat sailor would go in a dinghy

Regards Don

Thanks for your input. Did you have and trouble with winches, Reefing, furlers etc?

Hi Shanty

Not at all as it is all pretty simple but if I was going to spend an extended amount of time on a boat doing what you are intending to do I personally would be looking at something larger than a 25 footer

Regards Don

Shanty1 said..

AzureF305 said..
Mick, please re-read the posts from Shaggy, Tarquin and Bushdog over and over again until you fully understand what you're getting into. I'm certainly not one to dampen your dreams but it seems like enthusiasm is getting the better of common sense. You have time on your side, that is your advantage, but you still lack experience.

You said: "What I do have is dinghy sailing experience a boat like a top hat is apparently just like a dinghy with a Jib."

Please don't get into the thinking that sailing a keelboat is like sailing a big dinghy, -this is an expression been given to the TH by experienced keelboaters to describe it's handling. And yes it handles well, but - even the simple physics between a 58 kg Laser and a fully laden tophat......
Just my 10c worth.

At the end of the day you'll probably end up doing what your heart wants, and that's OK, but for this you have to listen to your brain as well!

As you may know sometimes even your brain needs to be listening as well. Exactly why I decided to post something on the internet to get a bunch of answers. Then decifer the bullsh!t if you know what I mean. I know what you mean about the handling. But they say you should start in a dinghy the go to a small keelboat. Do normal people go to a small keeler without any help? Even so I reckon over time I could figure it out surely it isn't that hard? What I need is to buy a boat and start sailing instead of posting things online.

Your are right sailing isn't that hard. That's easy part. It's all the other stuff you have to do at the same time. Then you get tired. I mean hallucinating and hearing voices tired. I have never done any solo sailing but know people that have.
DO NOT buy a boat. Sail on other people's. Get experience. Maybe the time you had planned for this trip you could do some cruising on a top hat, maybe look at a few different ones. Find someone , maybe on here for example and say " hey I will haul your boat and antifoul it if I can go cruising on it for 2 weeks. He'll probably say No way you don't know what you are doing!
Just go sailing. Do regattas. Build up to some offshore stuff. Have fun get drunk and shag some chicks. Do what 20 year olds are meant to do. Go traveling.
Do as many tickets as you can whilst you are working on tug boats. Good qualifications will always come in handy. Hell with some experience and qualifications you could get a job on a sailing boat.
I was not concerned about you I was concerned about the people that might have to come and save you. The people that put their lives on the line to go to sea in **** conditions and save idiots ( not always but often) that go to sea unprepared.
The ocean is a big bad ass monster waiting to eat you up. Treat it with the respect it's deserves. Some advice given to me.
Don't take advice from people on the internet. Take advice from people at sea. Go sailing and have fun. Get drunk and shag some chicks. Or did I already mention that.

It's a big jump from a Top Hat to an S&S 34 - when you're kicking the keels, maybe have a look at those in between as well . The compass 28s and the many derivations come to mind. There are many others.

You may well score a bargain that is well on the way to being ready for your trip.

We found that, over our 3 year trip, we got significantly faster as we became better sailors so you are right, get out on the water.

Cheers

Bristol

nswsailor said..
Time for a reality check from my practical experience with Top Hats.

Now a lot of the words that have been said by forum posters are very true and Shanty, you should take careful note of what has been said.Now some assumptions that have been made. Average speed for a start. You will average around 2 to 3 knots at BEST. I only average 4.6 knots and that is cruising which in practice means motor sailing whenever the speed drops below 3 knots. Why am I motor sailing, because Top Hats when loaded for cruising are not very fast and any distance over thirty miles that requires a tide to be meet at the destination requires that at some point I will be motor sailing.

That means your voyage could take over 500 days!

Water. Water equals weight, whether you carry it or carry fuel to run a water maker. I reckon you will need a minimum of 300 litres [based on your timing, more if mine] Mk 1's carry 159 litres. Mk 2's carry around 120 litres and the Mk 3 around 100 litres. Shoal draft versions carry none. So there is a large gap of about 10 x 20 litre jerry cans plus.Food. If you are going to run a refrigerator [more weight] you will need a large battery bank with solar panels to keep it charged. You will also need a small generator and fuel if you loose your solar panels. Cooking food will require gas as you will not be able to carry enough methylated spirits for a meths stove. In an onboard situation I can see no way that you will be able to keep any vegetables or fruit fresh, so after about 2-3 weeks you will be relying on tin and dried food or what you have in a frig. You are planning on a frig?

Watch keeping. This will kill you because of the time required to complete the voyage. DON'T be encourage by what Rob did in SUNDOWNER in circumnavigating Australia because he took time off to allow for the right season for his next section but most importantly what most people don't realize is that Rob had another 30 foot yacht with him from Brisbane around the top, down WA and across the Bight [with 15m waves] to his home port in VIC. This meant they were alternated their sleeping so one yacht was always on watch! Rob took about two years to complete the circumnavigation.

Someone said that Top Hats are a light weight JOG boat and this is correct. Mates of mine who race strip everything they can out of them, then they become fast [even on handicap] and they still do win races.

Shanty I admire your dedication but you will miss out on so many experience by doing a dash around Australia when you can cruise and enjoy all that Australia has to offer, a much better experience I think. If I had done what you wish to do, just think how bland my blogs would have been for you when you were growing up.

The advice to at least use a 32-34 foot yacht should be seriously considered over a Top Hat.

NSWsailor
Onboard SV Seaka, a Mark 1 Top Hat anchored at Raby Bay in Moreton Bay on a three to four month cruise towards Lizard Island.

Hey Phillip, Well there is some very valuable and practical advice indeed. You have made some good points. Why would I not be able to carry enough spirits for a spirit stove? Surely 80l would be enough? I would have though gas would be a pain in the arse. I would not be running a fridge. Having to be stored in bottles. After all is considered I may have to wait a bit and save up for an s&s 34.

Shanty1 said..

If I was going to spend an extended amount of time on a boat doing what you are intending to do I personally would be looking at something larger than a 25 footer

Regards Don

Hence I am also looking at an s&s 34 but I better start saving.

There is a very nice Currawong for sale central coast. You could easily spend this money fitting out your tophat.

www.buyaboat.com.au/buyaboat/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/currawong-30/231660