Karsten,
Where do you live?

The Hydrographic service sell ENC's but I'm sure no one wants to pay their prices. Paper charts are $35 but a single electronic version of the same is something like $380!!!!!
hydro.gov.au/

The other alternative is to go to the MSB webpage, its changed names now. Download the free pdf file of the charts you need, convert with a picture programme, calibrate and load and your in business. They are more accurate than the Admiralty charts.
This is my homeport, I have made it a lot smaller. The downside of these charts is the MSB safety crap placed in the worst of places on some charts.

Hi Ramona. I am familiar with the MSB pdf port charts on the website. Can you elaborate on "convert" "calibrate" and "load". Obviously you are converting from a pdf. What "to" format is best and how do you calibrate. Sounds a very good idea as presently I have been trying to print these things off but I no longer have access to an oversize printer anyway.

Thanks LooseChange I will give it a go. I am still a bit unsure about the calibration bit. I understand about getting the LAT & LONG for at least 3 locations and understand why you can use that to calibrate. In theory at least. But I am still a bit unsure into which programme you use the LAT Long numbers. I am assuming you would want to generate a scale map before loading that into your preferred map program. If so then how do you do that with the picture editing software you are using? I am keen to give this a go so thanks for the practical how to tips for dummies.

HaveFun, the picture editing software is only used to get a file type other than PDF as none of the Navigation Programs will read a PDF file and also to resize to a size more suitable to what you need or want. As stated previously lat/long data can be got from Google Maps. The lat/long data is used in the navigation program to calibrate the converted PDF file using a calibration function attached to it, as Ramona said for Seaclear it is a small separate proggy called "Mapcal" and in Ozi Explorer the calibration function is part of Ozi Explorer ... File > Load and Calibrate Map Image. Have fun and ask questions

Thanks for the input from everyone.

I have since seen a demo of another cruiser's OpenCPN and I must admit that I like the look of Ramona's chart (see his post above) much more than the OpenCPN vector charts I saw.

So now I'm keen on raster-type charts that Ramona and HaveFun discuss. I think these are the same type of charts used by 4WD and hikers (topographical info on land), and it seems quite easy to buy a set of such raster maps covering all of the Australian landmass for around $100 - $150.

I assume most types of raster charts can be handled by SeaClear - don't know for sure; I'll have to look into it, and what is available for purchase.

Someone also mentioned to me that there are apparently raster maps (land and sea) available in a format called "OziExplorer" (mapping software available in 10 languages so it seems an international effort). So it could be that you can buy OziExplorer marine raster charts for the Australian coast. Need to do some more web searching.

Since I want to cover quite a long coastline (Whitsundays to Tasmania), I would rather buy a set of charts than make them myself, unless it's easy to do in a weekend.

And yes, Charriot, in the end, if I get nowhere, I may have to overcome my bias against "proprietary" software and data makers such as Garmin, but only after I've satisfied myself that there are no viable non-proprietary options.

Karsten said...

Thanks for the input from everyone.

Someone also mentioned to me that there are apparently raster maps (land and sea) available in a format called "OziExplorer" (mapping software available in 10 languages so it seems an international effort). So it could be that you can buy OziExplorer marine raster charts for the Australian coast. Need to do some more web searching.

Karsten,
"OziExplorer" does not come with any maps nor does Des sell any, the whole point of OziExplorer is that you can make a moving map display for an area for which no electronic charts exist. Also remember that nearly all of the maps will not show any marine specific items eg. reefs or shoals. In the end there is no substitute for having the right gear.

No experience with this product. The charts on the cd for AUS navy are the same used by the coastguards and water police etc. and are what most people use[pirated]. They state they can only be used with the Memory nav programme, not sure how they are locked. I'm sure once they are loaded on your PC its open slather.
The charts are just electronic versions of admiralty paper charts in current use. Coloured ones are in metres and mono are in fathoms. These are quite accurate on the coast and at sea but not so good in harbours and estuaries etc.

Just got back from helping a friend take his lovely "Flemming" Moreton Bay Cruiser from Bundaberg to Brisbane for slipping and some boat builder work.

He had a laptop with the TMQ mapping software and charts on it. It was quite easy to use and really quite accurate.

Don't know what he paid for it but I think he said it was less than $1,000.

The PC was Win XP running 800x600 as I recall. Any higher definition and the chart was only half of the screen and hard to read.

The interface was easy to use with mouse, touch pad and some keyboard short cuts (eg. use directional keys to pan chart display.)

The PC was interfaced with a NAVMAN 5" GPS/plotter via serial port.

Worth checking out here:-

www.tmq.com.au/

Here are some pics of the boat. A real pretty little thing that cruises at 7.5 to 8 knots with her turbo'd 6 cyl Perkins at 1,800 rpm raising her bow to 2m swell. She pounded a bit in the short sharp chop in Hervey Bay in a 20 knot blow so we had to pull her back to 1,200 to 1,500 rpm.

I am quite jealous of him really because she is a magic little boat.

I did have a play with Seaclear and the sample charts you sent me. Nothing wrong with it at all but I found the task of indexing and adding charts a tad daunting.

Is it possible to buy a chart package at a reasonable price that can be semi or fully integrated into the program??

Whitworths have this product:- The price is good but is the program also good?

www.whitworths.com.au/

fnqsailor said...

They are copyright protected. These are also what you find in programs like Memory-Map... the difference is that if bought direct from an agent (as AusRNC), then the charts can be updated and will in certain circumstances be considered the equivilent of a paper charts by the maritime authorities. Something like Memory-Map isn't considered to have an robust enough system to be considered a paper equivilent... it, like Garmin, C-Map, etc are just situational awareness tools and if you read the fine print will say "not for navigation".

Thanks for sharing your useful overview info, Fnqsailor.

I have looked at both a paper chart and a Memory-Map chart of the Pittwater waterway north of Sydney, and they seemed to my non-scientific inspection to present equivalent information.

The Memory-Map people claim their chart is an accurate version of the official equivalent paper chart (they would, wouldn't they?).

Can you help our understanding by explaining more specifically when you say Memory-Map & C-map is not "a robust enough system to be considered a paper equivalent"?

For example, are the datums inaccurate, or are there marine features missing, are there specific navigational inaccuracies not found on the paper chart equivalents, or is it to do with the application of Update Notices?

Do you know what the specific deficiencies are - it would help our collective insights greatly?

Thanks.

Charriot said...

Hopefully all PC chart sailors, never go to Bass Strait. Your PC will cut off on first leg on anti shake protection and you wish to have a plotter with build in charts in the cockpit.

Cisko, like your expression
"A real pretty little thing that cruises at 7.5 to 8 knots with her turbo'd 6 cyl Perkins at 1,800 rpm raising her bow to 2m swell.
Displacement 10 tons plus isn't it ?

My yacht with the previous owners did 5 Hobarts, 3 Lord Howe and several other long distance races using a laptop. I have mine mounted in a secure timber mount that lifts up with the chart table lid [see photos]. Previous owners just had it sitting on the chart table. No banging and crashing or vibrations in my boat. I do carry a Garmin 72 in the chart table and a Garmin plotter stored in a cupboard!

Ramona said...


My yacht with the previous owners did 5 Hobarts, 3 Lord Howe and several other long distance races using a laptop. I have mine mounted in a secure timber mount that lifts up with the chart table lid [see photos]. Previous owners just had it sitting on the chart table. No banging and crashing or vibrations in my boat. I do carry a Garmin 72 in the chart table and a Garmin plotter stored in a cupboard!

You're worse than the Irishman that wears two condoms.

To be sure, to be sure.

You are wearing three.



That is a lovely set up.

That mast base fitting is bleeding a bit isn't it?

It's risky business here . You show picture with one thing and people can see something else. Trackball mouse is great I have Logitech over 2 years perfect.

This is the trackball mounted in my old fishing vessel. Mouse is held in place with screws and flat washers. Because of the height and angle water off gloves tends to run down the wrist and away. Keyboard mounted vertical just below window.
New owner uses Navionics software alongside Seaclear, no idea why. Not a patch on the Seaclear programme.

Hi Karsten,

My apoligies for not replying sooner - I was expecting an email to say something new was added to the discussion...

Anyhow - thanks for asking my thoughts on this.

Regarding you initial question on the differences you see. You are right that Memory-Map are basically reproducing the raster charts (under licence). If they are smart, that won't muck around with them (I don't think they do, so if you compared the two you should not see much of a difference.

C-Map on the other hand, along with many others, recompile the data into vector format. In doing this, they are basically tracing a paper chart (or ENC), then adding it into the pot with a tonne of other data they have sources from other places. So when you look at an area, you can't be sure exactly where the data came from, who surveyed it, its quality, etc, etc. I won't go as far as to say they make some of it up, but certaintly there is some very questionable bits of data in some systems.

An official chart will tell you "this data is rubbish", "that bit isn't surveyed"... however commerical systems want to give you "full coverage"... so occasionally contours can be smoothed out, they will include a bit of a satelite derived data (spot depths at 1km for example) to fill in the gaps... it is all a bit wishy-washy and certaintly not "rigorous"...

It is good to see that Memory-Map / C-Map were honest with you about their products limitations. You have pretty much got it; they don't update they systems regularly enough, nor do they give you any warranty on the quality of the data and representations. If C-Map accidently miss copying a rock from the official chart, into their format, and you hit it, they won't accept any liability - they will be embarrased, but that is probably as far as it would go.

All your points on datums, features, inaccuracies, etc are all relevant. Whenever someone copies something, the precision and accuracy degrades. If you think about a 1:150000 scale chart, the plottable error is considered to be 0.5mm, which at this scale is is 75m. So it only takes a few minor reproduction errors to have something end up a good couple of 100 metres off mark.

Compounding this, particular with vector based systems such as C-Map, is that you can "zoom" in well beyond the compiled scale. For example if the source data chart is 1:150000, then once you zoom closer then that in any system, you starting to blur the lines between precision and accuary... just because you can see the chart at 1:1 scale (precision), doesn't make it any more accurate then the +/- 75m it was compiled at.

I don't fully agree with what they told you about "it is not about the accuracy of the charts" - it is very much about that.

Just to clarify; for commerical use, the chart MUST be issued by an Hydrographic Authority; nothing else will stand up. They them must be maintained to the latest notice to mariner, also issued by the Hydrographic Authority.

There are some electronic chart vendors that do "valued added reselling". They buy the official charts, add to them (without changing the underlying information), then encrypt them with S63 and sell them as an official ENC... The best test of how "official" an electronic chart is, is to ask if you need an S63 User Permit; if you do - it is very likely you are buying some very legitimate... if not, it is anyone guess.

Commerical regulations require two independant systems. So for a large SOLAS vessels, we are talking two completely independent (including power, gps, the lot) ECDIS systems. For smaller state registered vessels, you can use a laptop / PC and have a second onboard. In both cases, you still need official charts to be installed and up to date.

I could go on, but I will give it a rest - as I am not sure many will still be reading!

If you want official charts, and you are happy to run it on a laptop / PC, as in the pics shown previously - you can set yourself up for about $500. I think that price rivals most other decent chart plotters anyway - so why not get the official charts?