I hope this thread can be kept positive and constructive, such that all parties feel comfortable putting their opinions and ideas up for discussion without feeling they are being attacked.

FWIW, I think your comments are valid Gizmo, but I'm keen to hear the decision makers response. For my benefit, what other restrictions do you think should be applied to this class? (or perhaps could we put the international rules in this thread for discussion)

EDIT: cancel that, here they are:

Any fully assembled sand yacht whose wheel footprint fits inside a loop of rope 5.6m long,
with a maximum wheel size of 4.00 x 8,(wheelbarrow style), a tubular / circular mast and no wing sections is regarded as a mini yacht

perhaps we could consider following Blokart's example and have a "general" and a "performance" class, where international rules apply to the general class to promote new comers to the sport and the rules above apply to the "performance" class to promote technical advancement... your thoughts??

The problem I have with gizmos use of the word international is that we got told that this is now the standard. you need to consider what minis yachts are for people like those who come on this website,rather than just people who want to manufacture and sell yachts
If you have a look at some of the websites with commercially available mini yachts , you will start to notice that larger 20" wheels, carbon replacemet parts, super sails,.....etc are already on offer. despite a restriction placed on the class for racing in a FISLY event.the next generation of commercially built yachts is already coming , and they will probably look something like youve seen on seabreeze.
realistically we are doing the experiments for them.
At the ALSA meeting we came to the conclusion that if we restricted our building we would simply be holding ourselves back whilst the rest of the world moved on.
given that class 5 in Austarlia is generally 20 years behind the rest of the world , we felt that with the minis we had an opportunity to use it as a cheap experimental base.
we do need one. keep in mind that in Australia we had a mini class BEFORE the Europeans,they were the last to come onboard, yet there is already the feeling that they invented it. sandgropersLYC had the idea that there should be a wheelbarrow wheeled class 5 back in 1987!!! now the euros have a promo5( we invented that.)
so here we are with a mini rule that is a few years ahead of the game.
I dont see that as a problem.
Keep in mind that the cost of building a basic mini is almost the same as a super mini. You can bet Vics new experiment will be a cheapy too.
my new 5 is only costing more due to me making molds instead of 1 off parts, yet the cost is still well under $1500.
SOS only cost me $500 and $100 of that was on a front wheel, now I make that bit for about $20.
here we have a nice simple rule that the Euros can embrace when and if they come to Australia, people can experiment, and all the Australian landyacht manufacturers, selling their hundreds of units per year can do as the please
I do worry about people worrying about Blokart
In our local racing scene, we have yet to see a proper showdown between some of our top LLM's and the top blokarts. I suspect it will be alot closer than some people think. Andy B almost got me ,18 months ago except for 1 gust of wind on the last lap
im sure also that the Blokart salespeople across australia are not losing sleep over vic building a wing or me building an OTT.,
Have a careful read of the Landsailor magazine that col uploaded and you will see that in some places ,despite all the regs to bring Blokart into the fold,they are insisting on racing as a one design , so please stop stressing on their behalf
Carbon!!!!!, I dont even have a single carbon mast, gizmo has at least 1, Ron has a few, TP1,ledzephrlin,vic and barry, half the blowies seem to have carbon AND Ultracarbon, so i dont feel that is even an issue.


here is an opportunity for Australians to get on with getting out into their shed and inventing stuff, so stop moaning get on with it and enjoy

Now we are getting the discussion I was hoping would happen. Australia has not gone down the European line of sailing manufactured yachts and prefer to build our own which leads to experimentation. (blocarts that race in the mini race's vary from standard to full racing machines) are any home built yachts a real threat to these.

My personal opinion is that a standard mini and one that fits the 5.6m rope rule with no restrictions can be accommodated in the same race with either 2 grades or handicap. (I hear what you are saying Brian Thanks for your impute)This is something that will be discussed as the numbers build up.

At the last nationals 2 classes of mini sailed together with no complaints. The last thing I would want is to stop building the entrance level mini. This is to be encouraged.

Cheers
Aus230

Col

We all race together here - !

Each yacht type can extract the results for their type from the overall results if they like !







Brave move Australia nothing wrong with that at all, but as suggested elsewhere maybe it should be " International Miniyacht Class" and "Experimental Miniyacht Class" - Idea of the Mini Class is get more people sailing together -at home and worldwide.

Has ALSA been revived , if so let the FISLY secretary know soon ?

Keep up the good work.

Alan

Well......I don't particulally want to race...I'm not that macho /competive

I could see me engaginging in a interactive day with all commers. I really

want "TO GO VERY FAST WITH WIND" need for speed I think speed week

type sailing events better than broardsiding round a paddock . Rules are

for those who feel the need for. I realy feeeeeeeellll for speeeeeeeeedd.

Rules becomes religion ...something to fight about at a latter date

nikrum you seem to missing the point... how does the Mini rule restrict design?
Class5 / Class 5 Promo restricts design and materials..... Mini's DONT!!!

the rule is...
Any fully assembled sand yacht whose wheel footprint fits inside a loop of rope 5.6m long,
with a maximum wheel size of 4.00 x 8,(wheelbarrow style), a tubular / circular mast and no wing sections is regarded as a mini yacht

with this as a "Standard Mini" and then an "Ultra Mini" being for development / experimentation

Maybe there is no active commercial land yacht builder in Australia because there has been little stability in the specs / sport over the past few years and why would a manufacturer commit time, $$, and effort into a sport with that background?
crickey gizmo, if you went by this line of logic ,Blokarts would never have happened!!!!!! Blokart proved that by setting the standard,a sport could be rebuilt. it was seeing a blowie sail that got me refired up (that and the lakes drying up)
I think people get confused by thinking the shiny,bling ridden super minis go well because of the shiny bits, but in reality the winners of races are inevitably those who practice and focus on the race at hand,learn from the previous race etc.
Alans posted racing results are a great example of that.there you see a potty(as basic as possible beating blowies.
a blinged blowie starts well but then as the day progresses others get into the flow of the beach,the windconditions change,favouring the bigger sailors etc.
people need to get over the idea that they are not going to beat a supermini because its a super mini.
the key is to go sailing as opposed to talking about it.whenever you sail think of it as race practice( mind you youll end up like a sad old fart like me)
check out the seagull website and have a look at those lovely big "race" wheels by the way.


wink ,grin,fly

Some interesting discussion going on here. Just remember to play the ball, not the player. This decision wasn't made by any one individual




Now for my personal bit, and it starts in the form of a question. To what extent does ALSA recognise the Seabreeze community? Because it appears there are a lot of landsailors who currently have little to no say in ALSA decision making. Its not that ALSA has to deal here, but it would have been nice to have been asked about this kind of ruling; as then the idea of two mini classes may have been put out there prior to the meeting and then maybe there would be none of the current arguments

Nikrum said...
Gizmo,
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my delivery... I didn't suggest that the Mini Rule was restrictive, I said (In a Round-about way) That it could be hijacked by an astute manufacturer (Putting the possible blame on Chook[}:)] Sorry Chook) whom could restrict home builders to their spec's to slow or prevent legal modifications)

You've got it Nikrum, small changes may water down any class rule... let the rule be decided / and administered by a world wide body independent of the local sailing scene. This way the sport can be be transparent and seen to be transparent.

Well I thought ..why does paul continue with it????? But it seemed to me that

it was quite obvious, as what i read is that this person and his family have

participated and given much over many years. It has been bonding and productive

to themselves and their unselfish discrimination of knowledge of something that

was on its deathbed, a bit of a jeddi family. I say thanks......

dealers will always be on the sideline collecting info untill they feel their time is

right....then they will act, no mater what or who. They are driven not by wind

but by commercial gain

aus230 said...
As you see from the pic of some of the yachts below going from aus230 (which now looking rather dated) to the design and changes that have happened in 3 years in mini,s in WA

I still reckon the hummingbird on the right is more impressive and more important than all those lined up on the left!
By attracting lots more hummingbird sized pilots, our sport/ hobby/ addiction of landyachting can only go foreward.
I see it as a landyachting version of the Aussie rules "Auskick" program.

here is a challenge- I would love to give this a shot myself- but dont have the space, know how, wifes permission or spare cash to give this a worth while go.

How about developing a standardised pattern for a simple plywood body that can be based on no more than a couple of standard 600mm x 1200mm sized sheets of marine ply from the local hardware, sails of a simple set pattern, with no battens, made from cheap and easy to find polytarp, grommets, glue and tape.The mast something simple and cheap to find (reinforced PVC pipe? telescoped sizes?) chassis construction either bolt together or an easy and quick welding job of the type a kid could con a neighbor or local garage to do if Dad cant weld, wheels via a deal with either Fallshaw or Richmond Castings, pulleys- cheapies from a bulk buy with sponsors assistance or godforbid-china cheapies? (maybe Fallshaws or Richmonds can help with importing or bulk buys- and make available complete construction kits of wheels, bushes, bearings and pulleys?)
All from plans with a detailed shopping list and cutting list that can be printed off the website.
It would be much easier to get people building "Humminbird class landyachts" if they dont have the hassle of sourcing components from all over the place, rummaging through scrapyards and recycling depots in the hope of finding badly needed bits and pieces.
To be able to walk into bumblings hardware store with a shopping list of 2 sheets of 7mm marine ply 600 x 1200.
x amount of bolts-nuts-washers (all the same size for simplicity).
steel of x size, a polytarp of x size and knowing that apart from getting unclebobwiththewelderasixpack- all that I need is a hacksaw, hammer, glue, handsaw and mum out of the loungeroom for an afternoon and picking up the packet of wheels, pulleys and bearings from one location (Fallshaw or Richmonds) it would be perfect!
Something that is able to be built by fumblefingers and his/ her young offspring, or a patrol of scouts, (or 6 cubscouts) in as little time as possible before it can be out on the oval, in the carpark- or if you are blessed- on the lakebed.

I would love to be able to drive past an oval, or carpark (or golfcourse) and see about 20 or so sails turning around some markers!

I believe that if we want to see landyachting grow- we need to start at the ground level.

Stephen.

sn said...

aus230 said...
As you see from the pic of some of the yachts below going from aus230 (which now looking rather dated) to the design and changes that have happened in 3 years in mini,s in WA

I still reckon the hummingbird on the right is more impressive and more important than all those lined up on the left!
By attracting lots more hummingbird sized pilots, our sport/ hobby/ addiction of landyachting can only go foreward.
I see it as a landyachting version of the Aussie rules "Auskick" program.

here is a challenge- I would love to give this a shot myself- but dont have the space, know how, wifes permission or spare cash to give this a worth while go.

How about developing a standardised pattern for a simple plywood body that can be based on no more than a couple of standard 600mm x 1200mm sized sheets of marine ply from the local hardware, sails of a simple set pattern, with no battens, made from cheap and easy to find polytarp, grommets, glue and tape.The mast something simple and cheap to find (reinforced PVC pipe? telescoped sizes?) chassis construction either bolt together or an easy and quick welding job of the type a kid could con a neighbor or local garage to do if Dad cant weld, wheels via a deal with either Fallshaw or Richmond Castings, pulleys- cheapies from a bulk buy with sponsors assistance or godforbid-china cheapies? (maybe Fallshaws or Richmonds can help with importing or bulk buys- and make available complete construction kits of wheels, bushes, bearings and pulleys?)
All from plans with a detailed shopping list and cutting list that can be printed off the website.
It would be much easier to get people building "Humminbird class landyachts" if they dont have the hassle of sourcing components from all over the place, rummaging through scrapyards and recycling depots in the hope of finding badly needed bits and pieces.
To be able to walk into bumblings hardware store with a shopping list of 2 sheets of 7mm marine ply 600 x 1200.
x amount of bolts-nuts-washers (all the same size for simplicity).
steel of x size, a polytarp of x size and knowing that apart from getting unclebobwiththewelderasixpack- all that I need is a hacksaw, hammer, glue, handsaw and mum out of the loungeroom for an afternoon and picking up the packet of wheels, pulleys and bearings from one location (Fallshaw or Richmonds) it would be perfect!
Something that is able to be built by fumblefingers and his/ her young offspring, or a patrol of scouts, (or 6 cubscouts) in as little time as possible before it can be out on the oval, in the carpark- or if you are blessed- on the lakebed.

I would love to be able to drive past an oval, or carpark (or golfcourse) and see about 20 or so sails turning around some markers!

I believe that if we want to see landyachting grow- we need to start at the ground level.

Stephen.

did that a couple of years ago , called the LLM explorer,
A great success, there's a huge new fleet in Esperence.
not trying to be sarcastic steve, but really , ive done that bit
there are so many experiments out there that need to be done , and I and others finally have the time, the finances, and the communication network to make it happen, yet here we are with people trying to tell us how it should be done on one hand, another group telling which brand we will be required to sail.............

why do i continue to try new sailmaking ideas-to see what will happen
why do i try new chassis ideas -to see what will happen
why do i try new body ideas-to see what will happen.
always with that low cost ideal in mind
always sharing via this amazing forum.
the years of experimentation saved for you guys is probably about 1 year per design, say 10 designs on seabreeze ,add the other really great ideas coming from NZ,USA,Aus,UK,Scotland,Croatia,Denmark,Chile,Argentina,Sweden,France,Canada, Queensland, Italy,Spain AND even Tasmania.
theres so much to choose from,and yet a few people decide we shouldnt have that choice, that it should all be a peoples yacht,or not at all.



wink grin fly
paul

Awwwhhhh!! Nickypoos....that's lovley Bruv I think i may get casterated

......so all will understand the discreet differences. Your ball less bubby

On another planet do people here know of the Book that the team of Susan Day

put together on landyachting. How many have read it , little alone purchased it,

I did, and lent it to a so called landyachter who hasnt returned it. I believe 'The

DAYS" of Kalgoolie WA have done a sterling job over generations for landyavhting.

gibberjoe said...

...On another planet do people here know of the Book that the team of Susan Day

put together on landyachting. How many have read it , little alone purchased it,

I did, and lent it to a so called landyachter who hasnt returned it. I believe 'The

DAYS" of Kalgoolie WA have done a sterling job over generations for landyavhting.

I brought and have read though it once or twice A great read!

Sorry Ron, I've totally forgetten the price of the book.

Good on you PROMO! that other half could not have done it on his own

and thank you for what has been your very great input into Landyachting

within Australia and indeed the world.....please dont stop now. I'll order another

copy....pick it up after mid year.............