Subculture said...

Sorry guys but as I predicted, the majority of replies are all coming from an idealistic dream world... 'No regulation, free beaches for all etc etc'... News Flash - 'ALL' includes the non kiting public too and they have rights and a voice (with more numbers than ours) too....

Comments from the eastern states on a WA posed question and issue ranged as follows..

"...and give away more of my money,time and rights to somebody who thinks they, more than anybody else has the authority to say what i do and what i dont do...? yor kidding right.
sorry had to be said.. silly question really."

"Go hit the beach and kite, stop over thinking it and have fun..."

"If you want rules and regulations go join your local council. Better yet, go down to your local coast guard/ bowls club/ or SLSC and get into they're politics."

" NO No an NO !
I thought Qld was the Nanny state, its a disease this nannyism an its widespread.....this is a prime example !
Just stay out of the flags.....its not that hard !"

Nice one guys, I guess it'll not affect you - access or no access

Does it really need to be said that we are NOT living in an ideal world?? Open your eyes! FFS....

It is obvious that the current 'live and let live' attitude is not going to work in the longer term. Just look around you every time you go out. It will only take one big accident involving an innocent bystander...

At least Juddy and WAKSA are looking to preserve what has been fought hard for over the years. Credit to them for looking at solutions.

Like it or not, the numbers of couldn't give a fu##! idiots are on the rise. What is currently being done is NOT working or we would not be having this discussion! If I see something stupid happening, I talk to whoever is involved on the beach, I don't ignore it, wait till I come home and start crying and sniping on a forum. Certain other kiters talk to others on the beach also, but we are in obviously in the minority because the message is NOT getting through.. Ever heard the expression 'farting against thunder'?

Is there an easy solution? NO. Is credit due to the people who are trying to find that workable solution??.... Without a doubt.

As junglist just said: “Regulate yourselves or be regulated. Take control or be controlled”.

Again, what would you prefer? - To kite, or reminisce about the 'old days'?

The way I see it we have the following options:

1. Self Regulate
2. Local Beach Club Control
3. National License System like PADI
4. Government License System like Skippers license.

All of these have pro's and con's.

The way I see it, 1 doesn't work. People don't approach kiters or they don't realise until too late that someone isn't able to kite. I.e. as they launch their kite in the power zone. The other issues is you're powerless against someone who ignores you. The key issue is that people aren't educated in advance about local rules and regulations so its easy for them to plead ignorance if they get caught doing something wrong. I.e. the typical "What? You aren't allowed to kite through the middle of swimming zones? Sorry, I wasn't aware of that"

Options 3 and 4 offer the education in advance (including local water rules) but 3 has no control of people doing things wrong and doesn't stop people buying stuff off the internet. 3 works for scuba diving because people go on formal dives and need tank refills. Kiting doesn't have that, once you have kit you're on your own. 4 gives the power to the government and may restrict the sport too much because local bureaucrats don't really care about kiters enough to stand up for them. I.e. They could quite easily give away our kiting rights for an area if people want something else because they want the vote, not whats fair.

At the moment, the only real way I see to control things is 2. Local beach clubs with the clubs having the right to prevent people from kiting if they don't become members and abide by the local rules. That way you ensure that people agree to abide by the rules when they sign up, and failure to do so results in them being prevented from kiting at that location. I.e. we don't care if you endanger yourself at some deserted beach, but you're not kiting here. The advantage of this is it has the potential to move into other avenues that support the long term strategy of the sport. I.e. Course Racing with competing clubs. The only issue I see is that the sport cannot be controlled by any of the retail operations, instruction or gear sales because they'll look after the best interests of retail, not whats good for the sport.

PAULIE2011 said...

I think it would be cool if we had kiteboarding clubs at popular locations eg. Safetybay, Melville, pinaroo,Geraldton. Like what they have with surfing, (board riders clubs). Then let the clubs control and enforce local rules and guidelines. Let the club teach lessons on local safety and knowledge that perhaps isn't getting past on by kite shops after you complete your lessons. Then through out summer could have in house competitions and maybe verse other clubs from different locations and get a bit of history and pride of your kiting location where ever it may be.

To me this sounds like the best solution, all for it!
Is there a way that we can easily start this?

Yes in metro boundaries definatly

Stop buriying your heads up your arse, either we can do this ourselves or in 2 years time have it forced on us by local gov who will not care on what/how restrictions are placed on us.
We do not live in a free society(you are free to think what you like not do what you like), when there are multiple other people everywhere regulation is unfortunatly required

Rego no.s on kites is the best idea, all shops(this is the key) selling new/used kites should have to apply the numbers, eventually most kites would have no.s and names attached to those numbers
Shops are leaning towards not selling kites without lessons or skills recognition this is a positive next step, no lessons, no ID, f off and buy your kite on ebay

There are only positives from this, we will be seen to be regulating oursleves
If the reg fee is incorporated in every kite, the cost of the fee(WAKSA reg/ins) would be dramatically reduced and everyone(with a registered kite) would have the min insurance and competancy to use it, this would all be a slow process not a big stick approach

This wont stop all the idiots, but it will help

Poor Relative the SLC's didnt have a problem until we came along, why should they be forced to react, kiters need to sort the problem

Lots of stuff to be worked out and sorted out, more than a 10 line comment, keep talking

The above is my opinion only, i reserve the right to change to change my opinion(depending on the time of day), the above is not to be used in a court of law, if you dont agree i am not your friend

Edit ; more bludy signage every where the lack of signage is a joke, whether you think people read it or not

poor relative said...

In order to change behaviour there needs to be a consequence or a disincentive. People don't park in no parking areas because they aren't allowed they don't park there because they will get a fine if caught.

If clubbies had the power to confiscate gear or issue fines or have people 'charged' then I'm sure that would be disincentive enough to change behaviour and stop the minority kiting in the flags.

I agree with PR and after a few fines get issued the word would soon spread to those that dont read this and other forums.

Neptune said...

Saffer said...

The way I see it we have the following options:

1. Self Regulate
2. Local Beach Club Control
3. National License System like PADI
4. Government License System like Skippers license.

All of these have pro's and con's.

The way I see it, 1 doesn't work. People don't approach kiters or they don't realise until too late that someone isn't able to kite. I.e. as they launch their kite in the power zone. The other issues is you're powerless against someone who ignores you. The key issue is that people aren't educated in advance about local rules and regulations so its easy for them to plead ignorance if they get caught doing something wrong. I.e. the typical "What? You aren't allowed to kite through the middle of swimming zones? Sorry, I wasn't aware of that"

Options 3 and 4 offer the education in advance (including local water rules) but 3 has no control of people doing things wrong and doesn't stop people buying stuff off the internet. 3 works for scuba diving because people go on formal dives and need tank refills. Kiting doesn't have that, once you have kit you're on your own. 4 gives the power to the government and may restrict the sport too much because local bureaucrats don't really care about kiters enough to stand up for them. I.e. They could quite easily give away our kiting rights for an area if people want something else because they want the vote, not whats fair.

At the moment, the only real way I see to control things is 2. Local beach clubs with the clubs having the right to prevent people from kiting if they don't become members and abide by the local rules. That way you ensure that people agree to abide by the rules when they sign up, and failure to do so results in them being prevented from kiting at that location. I.e. we don't care if you endanger yourself at some deserted beach, but you're not kiting here. The advantage of this is it has the potential to move into other avenues that support the long term strategy of the sport. I.e. Course Racing with competing clubs. The only issue I see is that the sport cannot be controlled by any of the retail operations, instruction or gear sales because they'll look after the best interests of retail, not whats good for the sport.

Hit the nail on the head mate.

Option 2 is the way to go. You are right about the retailer part of it though. Who is going to start these clubs? it seems to me like it would have to be completely voluntarily. And how are these clubs actually going to get the authority to enforce rules onto people?

If there is a way I would be happy to help

I'd approach some of the yacht clubs and ask them how they did it? There are a number of yacht clubs that have access to particular areas although I don't know whether its exclusive or whether they can just limit people using some of the facilities like the slipway.

The one issue with approaching council is that if they get wind of how dangerous kiting is, they may just opt to ban instead. The other issue is consensus amongst the kiters when approaching the council. Generally a large number of kiters are going to be against it unless a ban happens, then all of a sudden they suddenly realise they could lose access and become for it. That means if you approach the council to do something with support from only 20% of the kiters, you may have a hard time getting past the objections. Unless the council has the ability to understand its in the best interests of the kiters, they may not listen.

Realistically this has to come from WAKSA, KBV, AKSA etc. This may require a restructuring of the AKSA, WAKSA, KBV etc.

For example, the local body has one vote for any changes in the state body and the state has one vote for any changes at national level. The state body (president, secretary etc) must consist of a maximum one person from each club. I.e. you can't have 4 from 1 club and 1 from another so you spread the state level interests aside from the vote so that the state body doesn't focus all its attention on a single kite location or club.

The changes I would make to the body would be the following:

Cut the fat and give the kiters value. Most kiters want insurance and access to kiting locations, not local comps and BBQ's. Most kiters see no value in the state bodies because they get nothing in return. 90% of the money should be spent on insurance. Spend money on insurance and fighting for local beach access and leave the BBQ and local events to shops and local clubs.

The state body can cater for national championships and realistically thats all they need to worry about.

Split the social aspects off and hand them to local bodies. Most people are territorial so they are going to go to their local kitespot whether there is a bbq at another kitespot or not. Once some of the course racing comps start happening, people will have the opportunity to socialise with other clubs.

The same ol self regulate philosophy just aint workin IMO.

There are too many idiots and ignorants (and a few experianced just don't give a feks) appearing every season.

Dunno about other folks but gettin told to fark off or completely ignored when trying to word up a nong wears pretty thin after a few years.

Have voiced my thoughts on rego before and I see it as inevitable. Or a loss of access to many beaches - so take your pick on the lesser of two evils.

I also see potential for rego to indetify and yes - ban individuals that are serial offenders, not punish the rest of the kiters that do the righty.

I'd be keen for a non-flaming discussion on suggestions Rello and others have for giving clubbies the power to confiscate but IMO a few things will not allow that to happen.
1. The hysterical and abusive flame-on reaction of most to the idea of rego (when most pay a WAKSA rego anyway I don't get the hysteria?)[}:)]
2. The reality that clubbies will then have to physically put themselves into situation of conflict with nongs that have already shown squat regard for laws etc. This a big ask for volunteers (often in teenage years) IMO and also a bit of a legal minefield.
3. Rangers already have those sort of powers (as far as I am aware) and most likely they authority will fall on them.

Anyway.. the self regulate philosophy is fantasy land I reckon and something needs to change or kiss the beaches goodbye.

BTW - if we are such a mature, respectful and considerate group of sporting enthusiasts to self regulate then a discussion (not flame fest) on the topic wouldn't be too hystericall fraught I would think.

yep said...

Yeah great idea, lets use the same idea for us surfers aswell I would safely say more surfers and swimmers are injured every year by boards on the loose and kooks dropping in then there are injured kiteboarders and innocent bystanders. Surf breaks are crowded more then ever, just like premium kite spots but it just seems more kiters jump online and whinge about it, imagine a local council trying to shut down a surf break because too many people have been hurt or had near misses, how many would just paddle out with total disregaurd for the ban..... everyone.

Hows this scenario: a surfers leggie snaps or come off, board washes into beach where swimmers and children are enjoying the shallows and the board smacks them in the face and opens them up requiring stiches. Now by the time the surfer swims in chances are the injured person has rushed of to get fixed up, but if not and they are still on beach, the surfer goes up and says sorry and explains that it was an accident. That would happen at almost every crowed beach break in Perth on a 36deg day. Should he be banned from that beach, should he have his rego taken down and fined or should we just turn into America and sue the poor bloke for everything he owns because of an accident?

I dont see the difference between that accident and a kite based accident? Just remember, even a pros leggie can snap just like a pro will drop their kites.

Cheers.

Simple. A board is unlikely to decapitate an innocent person on the beach or cause a 5 car pile up when it blows onto the road.

Surfers also don't let their boards blow into power lines causing outages.

Shayne86 said...

i dont even know were to start right now. . . . .

My gut feeling is telling me that this is possibly the stupidest idea ever. You want to charge people for using a free natural reseource like the wind??? Yeah because everyone will get on board with that. . . . .

Im not from Perth so I am strugling to understand what the problem is like down there as up here in Gero we have very few kiters and miles of beach line. The way some of you carry on its almost like there is 600 kiters all out of control, all on the same beach, at the same time and all riding in between the flags?!?!?!

You guys cant drive an extra 20 minutes to find a isolated area to kite safely and out of the way of swimmers???

With all this talk of "rego" or whatnot, is that only gonna apply to the Metro areas or will it be nation/statewide? No offence, but like F%CK if im paying hundreds of my hard earned dollars a year to kite on my local beachs which are deserted 90% of the time.

I think you're getting it wrong. They want to charge people to kite at the busy local metropolitan beaches near the major cities.

I think the principle behind it is to control those beaches that need to be controlled, and let those who kite at deserted beaches do so without worrying about it.

As I mentioned, I don't see national registration as an option. I don't see licenses per say as an option. I see local bodies which control specific metropolitan beaches as an option. This ensure that those people who kite in areas which are likely to impact on the safety of other kiters or beach users are managed.

Shayne86 said...

i dont even know were to start right now. . . . .

My gut feeling is telling me that this is possibly the stupidest idea ever. You want to charge people for using a free natural reseource like the wind??? Yeah because everyone will get on board with that. . . . .

Im not from Perth so I am strugling to understand what the problem is like down there as up here in Gero we have very few kiters and miles of beach line. The way some of you carry on its almost like there is 600 kiters all out of control, all on the same beach, at the same time and all riding in between the flags?!?!?!

You guys cant drive an extra 20 minutes to find a isolated area to kite safely and out of the way of swimmers???

With all this talk of "rego" or whatnot, is that only gonna apply to the Metro areas or will it be nation/statewide? No offence, but like F%CK if im paying hundreds of my hard earned dollars a year to kite on my local beachs which are deserted 90% of the time.

Drive down to perth and come to say melville or woodies or leighton on a busy 20+knot seabreeze and see how out of control it is . Sure in gerro with a population of 100 of course you will only see like 5 kites out and you have access to alot of uninhabited beach up there both north and south . But down here it's different .

For this to work the "license" should be checked on all airports in the country...

And temporary "license" granted on entry. The Government should step in to enforce. Me thinks this won't happen any time soon.

How else would one stop the Euros and others to kite here?

Think about this as so called "Green pass" in EU for driving cars.

No "Green pass" - no driving in EU (can drive but the risk is very high).

You guys are also forgetting when you go skiing people crash into each other all the time, and as a result some will die!

How would you feel if u pay $$$$, go on slope in Canada/Japan/NZ and one is asking for a license to ski? How would you get a license in Oz?:)


1) I'm for a big numbers on kites tho! (kite registered to my name-can of worms if borrowed to a friend:)
2) License for kiting - no (over regulated state already)
3) Compulsory test before buying a kite - yes! (why not something like this first?)
4) Skippers license first - maybe! (to get overall knowledge but what is a minimum age ie. a 8yo kid ?)


Once again, stop kiting Euros and others on the door, problem half solved...Takers?

neptune.. sit down and give your brain a rest...

nearly 100 posts in 2 weeks= newb record=too much time on the PC..

On a par with Rickwindt and Chelles88.

Didn't the windsurfing brigade go down the path of registration back in the late 80's in VIC? Can't remember.

Then in the late 90's PWC's were regulated and you had to hold a licence. In VIC the Department of Transport patrols the beaches and the police have the power to arrest, fine, etc.

To regulate kiting in a similar way means including kitesurfing as a prescribed activity in the PWC regulations. Isn't the DoT in WA already looking at this?

I'm not sure, but I don't think licencing had any material impact on deaths in SCUBA diving? But then again SCUBA doesn't impact other beach users when you kill yourself or do something stupid!

Self regulation is the key - otherwise kite surfing will die it's own death, too hard to get into, too expensive, too few places to kite, manufacturers have decreasing sales, close down and the next thing arrives. It's time to harden the f*ck up and get involved with your local association. Didn't WAKSA remind people in their last newsletter? How many people actually did reply to Juddy on that one?

Maybe WAKSA should jack up the fees and pay people to be kite surfing "police"? Fancy paying $400/year for membership???

Stop whinging on the forum and start helping other kiters be safe and lead by example, don't do something stupid because you like being a hero only to be copied by a less experienced kiter.

Just stay away from NZ - we don't have any of this crap!

Livit, WAKSA has been trying to get local clubs up for about 5 years now. And the problem - lack of volunteers. WAKSA is willing to fund local groups!

Insurance, you can get it cheaper but councils enforce the rules (well insurance companies advise the councils who enforce the rules) and that's why all WAKSA events you have to be a member because if anything does go wrong the council walks straught up to the one insurer, WAKSA's.

The location guides are up all around and have been on line previously, I'm sure they'll be there again soon. They've been available from shops, the airport, handed out, etc over the past few years. Lifeguards clearly mark the flagged zones as "NO BOARD CRAFT" zones.

It's time people get off their ar$es and volunteer to help out, either at a local level or at a state level! You can't rely on a few good people to do it all, and in WA you've done this for the last 5 or more years. Every WAKSA president retires burnt out, because they never get enough help! I'm sure this AGM will come around and again we'll get more than 10 volunteers and end up with about 5 doing the hard work.

You guys want free access, then f*cking make it happen!

dusta said...

Drive down to melville when there is no wind and then come back and tell me that all cars parked alongside the river 5 metres from the waters edge aren't there for kitesurfing .

And go to Leighton, Cottesloe, City beach, Brighton, or Pinaroo.... You're talking about one particular case. What I'm trying to say is that signing works better because people cannot say they haven't been warned... Also, it is something sustainable that belong to "the spot" where it's displayed.