Canadian dies in death loop drowning

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iandvnt

QLD

581 posts

iandvnt

QLD, 581 posts

17 May 2013 4:17pm

you gotta think about people downwind of u too before you eject - long time ago, but Silke Gordt was killed at a comp years ago when another kiter let go of their kite and it tangled with hers pulling her out of the water into a groin.

If you getting death looped in higher winds you will hardly know what is going on....

Gorgo

VIC

5124 posts

Gorgo

VIC, 5124 posts

17 May 2013 4:32pm

I would suggest a few things:

1. Don't ever pass less than two line lengths from anything hard that can hurt you. If you end up with a malfunction then you want to be sure you're not going to hit something.

2. If you're being dragged under water then your primary concern is to get some air to breathe. Short of being totally tied up you can always bias your body and limbs to bring your face to the surface and grab a breath.

3. Once you've got that breath and no obstacles to hit then you can deal with the kite. The primary goal is to get rid of the tension on the lines. You can do that by activating the safety system, pulling on the depower line, or releasing the kite completely. If you can't do those then streamlining your body is a least worst position to be in until the kite stops.

I have struggled with a downed kite on the safety in massive winds and ended up cutting the lines. In retrospect I should have just released the kite at the start. The beach was huge and empty and once the kite released it sat on the water waiting for me.

I really think the "death loop" thing is over emphasising a symptom. You can be in a bad situation behind a kite for any one of a number of reasons. The fact that the kite is spinning is mostly irrelevant. The pull is in a straight line, mostly along the water and the power of the kite is greatly reduced compared to a properly flying kite.

The most likely cause of a kite spinning is a line being wrapped around a bar. The best way out of that is to pull the front leader to depower the kite. Then you can slip the trapped line off the bar.

Kites can can bow tie and spin, usually with a line over. In each case they have crashed on the water. In all but one case tension on a single line has released the line over and allowed the kite to be relaunched and flown to the beach.

I have had kite lines and bridle lines snagged on knots on bridles and pig tails. The kite has spun a bit then crashed where the snag has come apart.

It might be possible for hard bar ends to contribute to a trapped lines. There is no way a Cabrinha bar end could trap a line. Those ends are very soft rubber. The notch in the end is barely stiff enough to hold the lines when packing up.

Phezulu1

66 posts

Phezulu1

WA, 66 posts

17 May 2013 2:32pm

sir ROWDY said..

Phezulu1 said..

I don't often reply to these things, but no-one seems to have mentioned that probably the best safety system for not going into deathloops is the 5th line one (any brand). The 5th line system has taken a fair bit of criticism for possibly cutting kites in waves, but I still reckon it gives you the best chance if the **** hits the fan.

And how are you supposed to use the 5th-line in a "death loop" situation? especially one on the suicide leash? You have exactly the same problem as every other kite. It's no better.

Death loops generally happen when you have multiple lines to the kite under tension-which is more prone to happen on 4 lines using bridles where the safety system generally rely on the front lines both staying connected to the rider. If you have only one line under tension (any of them-front, back or 5th) the kite is a flapping flag. True, it can still happenwith 5th lines if the fifth doesn't unload the other lines sufficiently and definitely will happen if it's on suicide.

I guess it's personal preference, I feel way safer with just one line under tension between me and the kite when I've released.

bene313

1347 posts

bene313

WA, 1347 posts

17 May 2013 3:08pm

Phezulu1 said..
Death loops generally happen when you have multiple lines to the kite under tension-which is more prone to happen on 4 lines using bridles where the safety system generally rely on the front lines both staying connected to the rider. If you have only one line under tension (any of them-front, back or 5th) the kite is a flapping flag. True, it can still happenwith 5th lines if the fifth doesn't unload the other lines sufficiently and definitely will happen if it's on suicide.

I guess it's personal preference, I feel way safer with just one line under tension between me and the kite when I've released.

My four line kites (Ozone), when released to safety, flags to a single line.

Phezulu1

66 posts

Phezulu1

WA, 66 posts

17 May 2013 4:08pm

Got to admit, I don't know how they all work.

I think that the F-one and Cabrinha flags to 2 front lines? even the North 4 line bar flags to the 2 front lines. Maybe some others can confirm how the various manufacturer's systems work?

sir ROWDY

5378 posts

sir ROWDY

WA, 5378 posts

17 May 2013 4:15pm

5th lines often create extra new tangling possibilities and dangers... I don't think they are the solution.
Also what happens when it's the 5th line that breaks? I've seen this happen to a few people and they have no idea what to do, not to mention the kite is often designed only to fly properly with 5th line tension so they can't even kite back to shore.

IanDVNT raised another couple of good scenarios there.

bene313

1347 posts

bene313

WA, 1347 posts

17 May 2013 4:55pm

AquaPlow said..

So (devil's advocate??) if U have a looping kite (after say 10 loops) and sufficient wits about you are we saying...
First release your kite leash
then
Second release your QR?

As a last port of call, I always hoped to be able to release my harness and could in the past, - but my current setup with a sliding bar does not have any quick about releasing the straps..

1 point I have not noticed mentioned, a few harnesses have a QR on the handle-pass line so you could have the chance of releasing this if you have the kite leash attached here but out of reach.

Cheers

AP

Other way around?

1. Go to QR, if not on suicide. Even if not on suicide, after 10 loops, a QR to flag line may fail to depower the kite.

2. If (1) does not work, complete release via kite leash

windywander

59 posts

windywander

WA, 59 posts

17 May 2013 5:33pm

This topic prompted me to check my harness and leash etc, as I imagine a few of us have.

Everything was in order, but out of curiosity I twisted my North leash up a few times and released, and it worked fine. But if I twisted it up more than about five or six times and then released it the pin was caught up in the line as long as it was under tension.

So has anyone else checked their leash? Have never had to release while under tension and twisted but would like to know it will work.

Will check my other brand of leash and see how it works, not trying to panic just be prepared.

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

17 May 2013 7:58pm

moon waxing said..

Kitepower Australia said..
Maybe people are doing things with their kites and bars that the manufacturers had no intention of designing for and none of the manufacturers are brave enough to say that yet??

Am I reading your post wrong? This is from the Cabrinha website, a harness with an attachment on the back...

Yeah, completely wrong, sorry. Just because there is a combined handle and loop on the back of the harness does not mean you and anyone should be putting their leash there!
Pretty sure that harness and most that I've seen have rings on the side, and the possibility to loop some rope to the spreader bar to attach a leash to a fixed position.
Devils advocate cap on again though, because a harness has a loop across the back, does that mean the manufacturer is responsible if you choose to attach your leash there?

In a similar vein, if you choose to unhook, and then choose to try a high risk bar pass trick, and you get your leash caught somewhere, and the kite starts death looping, is it the manufacturers fault? (Keep in mind that you still have a method to release the kite, via the leash QR)???
If something goes wrong with your kite as a direct consequence of your poor technique, bad timing, a wind gust, is this the manufacturers fault (or your own)??

terminal

1421 posts

terminal

1421 posts

17 May 2013 6:00pm

There are some good ideas for reducing the likelihood of getting into danger so far.

Plain bar ends could be done and done cheaply. It could also be possible to have winders inside the ends of a straight bar so that you pull them out and lock them at 90 degrees when you want to wind the lines up.

Adam Koch with a straight bar (Image 28) on an AVS kite at the Slalom Worlds in Mexico.
~~http://www.prokitetour.com/event-photos.php?id=150&Day=4#~~

There is a proper quick release for one end of a windsurf spreader bar which works. Its the plastic clip shown here, but they don't show the spreader bar end that works with it. It releases using little force even under load. It was designed for windsurfing so it could snag a line under the lever and release accidentally, but if the spreader bar end was redesigned to create a recess for the lever to sit in, but you can still get a finger under the edge of the lever, its a solution to getting rid of a waist harness quickly and easily.
www.zerogravitydistribution.co.uk/patlove/hardware/wspreader.html

eppo

9790 posts

eppo

WA, 9790 posts

17 May 2013 6:03pm

windywander said...
This topic prompted me to check my harness and leash etc, as I imagine a few of us have.

Everything was in order, but out of curiosity I twisted my North leash up a few times and released, and it worked fine. But if I twisted it up more than about five or six times and then released it the pin was caught up in the line as long as it was under tension.

So has anyone else checked their leash? Have never had to release while under tension and twisted but would like to know it will work.

Will check my other brand of leash and see how it works, not trying to panic just be prepared.

Yeh if this post has done anything is to har is check our gear. When setting up today was especially careful back to basics. But then I went and wrenched my knee on a double back with a tail grab invert. Can't farqin win!!!!

IanR

NSW

1342 posts

IanR

NSW, 1342 posts

17 May 2013 8:10pm

Hi windywander
I think that what people are referring to when the kite deathloops and you are still in the chickenloop when you trigger the primary release on the chickenloop and there a five or six twists in all Four or Five lines(depending on the kite) the single line that is you flagging line will not slip easily through the others and can bind.
I think it is unlike that the twists will be transfer down the leash but I do think it is interesting idea to see what happens and well done for testing it.
Sinces reading this thread I have been toying with the idea of putting a little piece of 80kg breaking strain line between the harness attachment and the leash then if i am being dragged by the leash and the force is greater than my body weight hopefully it will snap
PS I Never ride in suicide mode I am always attached to a flagging line

zarb

NSW

703 posts

zarb

NSW, 703 posts

17 May 2013 9:43pm

Would pulleys ever cause a potentially dangerous scenario?

Looking at a few kite manufacturers different designs, some with short pulley-less bridles, and others with rather long bridles with pulleys. Apart from the increased chance of a longer bridle being tangled around a wing-tip, would a jammed pulley in itself be a dangerous thing?

AquaPlow

QLD

1066 posts

AquaPlow

QLD, 1066 posts

17 May 2013 10:06pm

bene313 said..

Other way around?
1. Go to QR, if not on suicide. Even if not on suicide, after 10 loops, a QR to flag line may fail to depower the kite.
2. If (1) does not work, complete release via kite leash

Todate I have done QR then leash but not for a looping kite - in waves. In a death looping situation, I meant release the leash then the QR....
The way I read the issue is ... in the water.... if QR still hooked up, and you have an issue releasing the QR then you are either tangled or injured so end of discussion.
In a death loop situation releasing a leash when being power dragged is most likely the problem - if it is attached to the handle pass bridle then you may not be able to reach it.
My thinking is with the QR still attached you are being pulled from a relatively stable point - you are hooked in - so QR is way easier to reach than the leash. So from this position it should be easier to release the leash (when it is not under load pulling from an odd angle) because you can reach it then release the QR. You may have the forethought to hold onto the leash in case the flagging process works.

However the main points made by Gorgo and others are any chance of success is dependent on quick thinking and action not panic.

Cheers
AP

Bugger - winter arrived during the week - it is now cold.

windywander

59 posts

windywander

WA, 59 posts

17 May 2013 11:15pm

Lots of good ideas floating around, was not meaning to suggest that a heavily twisted leash was likely. But if lines are looped around something and you punch out the CL and it keeps twisting, one wants to be able to release in the worst case scenario.

I have had a few close calls, none involving a looping kite. A few in the good (bad!) old days. Took an old 9m C kite out a few years ago and putting the 2004 vintage wrist leash on felt about as comfortable as a noose. Things have come a long ways and modern gear is pretty good all things considered.

This just reminds me to check my gear, which I already did, like SCUBA gear or fall arrest gear my life depends on it. I change my depower lines early and often, if you buy the lines ( 5mm or 3mm dyeema at a yacht shop) and splice yourself it is cheap and easy to keep spares around. The same spare line will let me fix all my kite bridles leaders and etc just need to splice. The old lines still have lots of strength for hanging a hammock , so there is no loss.

dafish

NSW

1654 posts

dafish

NSW, 1654 posts

18 May 2013 9:34am

My 2 cents in this very sad situation:
Everything happens fast when things go wrong. Your practice of release, in my case I employ a 1,2,3 method. Let go of the bar, let go of the chicken loop, let go of the leash approach. It is drilled in my head. I ride in waves alot. Big pounding beach breaks. Very little reef. Things go wrong from time to time. Keeping a clear head as many suggest only comes with ALOT of water time. Many of us are experienced watermen who took up kiting after being surfers, free divers, fishermen, etc etc. We have years of ocean time. That buys us time because we have been at some stage in critical positions. It is easier for us to cope due to experience.
I cant say enough about checking your gear every single time you go out. It is your preflight check list, just like they do when pilots fly. This is one of the primary reasons why air travel is the safest way to travel bar none. It is safer than walking. They check everything before commencing take off. Find your own way of doing this and do it every time. It might just save your life if your chicken look is jammed full of sand and won't flag.
I personally set up my kites to flag to a single line. I have had to eject out of looping scenarios several times, but I always do it quickly. If it loops more than three times uncontrollably I have ejected my primary safety. I have only had to eject the leash in bigger surf and could swim in or ride my board before it actually hit the beach. These actions are automatic.
I have a knife, I can get to it easily, but have never (thank goodness) had to use it. Have come close when I was underwater with lines wrapped around my body and harness being dragged, but managed to free myself before I had to do that. While I wrestled with my lines my mind was already reaching for the knife, it was one step ahead.
When I first started kiting I looked at every kitemare on the internet. I wanted to prepare myself for what could go wrong and how I would deal with it. If you are new and just starting out, I suggest you do the same. This helps train your mind to react.
After saying all that, know your limits! It's okay to say no even though you might not have kited in months and are hanging to get out. If a spot is known for being dangerous in certain conditions than give it a rest. There will be other days.
Condolences once again to the kiters familiy...

iandvnt

QLD

581 posts

iandvnt

QLD, 581 posts

18 May 2013 10:05am

Reading about someone suing fcs for fins that are too sharp stuff like that... , what a numnutz, we make our own choices and need to be responsible/check have knowledge about the equipment we choose to ride, having said that I think it would be a good idea for companies to consider in their design process:

Decent effective leader lines that reduce possibility of bar wrap deathloop

No clunky bar ends that can get caught up in leashes /on lines

Leashes that at kite end are not able to "latch onto" anything if they fly around loose as they can do - a line / leader line / bar hole etc.

Actually testing the consequences of all scenarios of any breakage (individually or otherwise) to the mechanical systems that are all bridle components, lines and pulley components.

Making sure that and bridles cannot physically wrap the kite tips even when the kite bend/crashes hard

Giving better options for riders to choose front or side attachment options as well as back.

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

18 May 2013 11:50am

iandvnt said..

you gotta think about people downwind of u too before you eject - long time ago, but Silke Gordt was killed at a comp years ago when another kiter let go of their kite and it tangled with hers pulling her out of the water into a groin.

If you getting death looped in higher winds you will hardly know what is going on....

Silke's death was caused by the chicken loop design she had, which in those days were all the same in that they have NO quick release. From the next year onwards all the main brands had some sort of chicken loop QR, but a lot were dodgy velcro, or poorly tested and would still jam with sand or with age and wear.

One of the biggest issues facing kiting is the lack of a universal chicken loop release/design standard. A decade has passed since Silke's death and still we are all guinea pigs.
Another problem is the annual race for all the brands to woo consumers into buying their latest and greatest, so not enough time can be devoted to refining a decent kite design let alone a reliable bar and chicken loop design.

sir ROWDY

5378 posts

sir ROWDY

WA, 5378 posts

18 May 2013 10:06am

^^^ So true.
Most brands quick-releases these days I personally still wouldn't rely on. If your in a situation that you can un-hook and let it go I would try that before mucking around with a quick release that might not even work properly.

muirs

165 posts

muirs

SA, 165 posts

18 May 2013 1:07pm

Hi all,
I almost always ride suicide but usually just attach my leash to the ring on the side. I have been starting to attempt handle passes and have been attaching to the handle pass line that runs across the back of the harness. However, I only attach here if I'm trying handle passes, which I don't do if I'm overpowered.
I have had one instance where I have dropped the bar mid handle pass and it wrapped around the bar end and started looping. It was probably 22 knots on my 9 so right in the middle of the power range. Even though my leash was attached to the line on the back I still managed to release the lot off the leash after about 4 kite spins when it became obvious that I was heading for the sand rather quickly and that the kite wasn't going to stop spinning anytime soon. I'm sure it would be much harder if fully powered or overpowered on the kite, or if it had spun for longer and I had lost orientation.
Rowdy, how do you suggest progressing to handle passes if you can't connect to the handle pass line? You would attach to this line all the time surely?
Also, what is the point in having a line cutter in this instance. You can't reach the bar, and you can't cut through a leash with a line cutter...

Cheers,
Sam

bene313

1347 posts

bene313

WA, 1347 posts

18 May 2013 12:03pm

dafish said..
Things go wrong from time to time. Keeping a clear head as many suggest only comes with ALOT of water time. Many of us are experienced watermen who took up kiting after being surfers, free divers, fishermen, etc etc. We have years of ocean time. That buys us time because we have been at some stage in critical positions. It is easier for us to cope due to experience.

One of the best techniques I have found to help keep calm during big hold-downs when surfing is the "Count to 10" method. Simply count to 10 - "one thousand, two thousand, three thousand etc" - and I always end up popping up before getting to 10. Helps me keep calm because I know I can easily do an active breath hold for 10 seconds.

Similar concept can be applied to kiting, although, kiting incidents require problem solving, which are not required in surfing hold-downs.

dafish

NSW

1654 posts

dafish

NSW, 1654 posts

18 May 2013 3:12pm

Ha, I have counted to 60! While I generally agree with the fact there is less to think about, having had my legrope wrapped around a reef and could not get to my leg to pull it off had me trying to problem solve. Problem solved itself after three waves and me being under the whole time. Also,surfing in massive beachbreaks in Mexico with black sand it was dark and hard to work out which way was up in all the turbulence. Calmness does count and the counting method works really well! And you are absolutely correct that 10 can seem like a long time.

puppetonastring

3619 posts

puppetonastring

WA, 3619 posts

18 May 2013 2:05pm

See some comments in red

Gorgo said..

I would suggest a few things:

1. Don't ever pass less than two line lengths from anything hard that can hurt you. If you end up with a malfunction then you want to be sure you're not going to hit something.
Good advice - we teach our students this one. But in terms of death loops 2 line lengths is nothing. A couple of loops and ur way past 2 line lengths. [red]Worst Ive ever seen was a chic at Melville. Dragged helplessly a Km through the water till she hit the beach. Lucky for her it was back when kite leashes were often known to break. Hers did when she finally hit the beach just metres from the rock wall. Kite kept going. If the leash hadnt snapped she would have been launched fully powered into the wall.[/red]

2. If you're being dragged under water then your primary concern is to get some air to breathe. Short of being totally tied up you can always bias your body and limbs to bring your face to the surface and grab a breath.
[red]Yep you probably can but you make it sound too easy.[/red]

3. Once you've got that breath and no obstacles to hit then you can deal with the kite. The primary goal is to get rid of the tension on the lines. You can do that by activating the safety system, pulling on the depower line, or releasing the kite completely. If you can't do those then streamlining your body is a least worst position to be in until the kite stops.
[red]Yep - again sounds quite reasonable & probably is while youre sitting at your keyboard analysing it all with a clear head.[/red]

I have struggled with a downed kite on the safety in massive winds and ended up cutting the lines. In retrospect I should have just released the kite at the start. The beach was huge and empty and once the kite released it sat on the water waiting for me.
[red]Thye topic being discussed is the problem when you cant release[/red]

I really think the "death loop" thing is over emphasising a symptom. You can be in a bad situation behind a kite for any one of a number of reasons. The fact that the kite is spinning is mostly irrelevant. The pull is in a straight line, mostly along the water and the power of the kite is greatly reduced compared to a properly flying kite.
[red] Wrong in a true death loop the kite is hugely powered - if it wasnt then you wouldnt have a problem. BIG difference between a spinning kite & a death loop. My 'near death' day ;-) left me with bruises on one arm, chest, side & legs. Never ever had bruises from bad landings or other f-ups with no matter how powered the kite has been.[/red]

The most likely cause of a kite spinning is a line being wrapped around a bar. The best way out of that is to pull the front leader to depower the kite. Then you can slip the trapped line off the bar.
[red]In a pleasant world[/red]

Kites can can bow tie and spin, usually with a line over. In each case they have crashed on the water. In all but one case tension on a single line has released the line over and allowed the kite to be relaunched and flown to the beach.

I have had kite lines and bridle lines snagged on knots on bridles and pig tails. The kite has spun a bit then crashed where the snag has come apart.

It might be possible for hard bar ends to contribute to a trapped lines. There is no way a Cabrinha bar end could trap a line. Those ends are very soft rubber. The notch in the end is barely stiff enough to hold the lines when packing up.

Not dissing you Gorgo - it just aint that simple when it really hits the fan.

And to Rowdy - mis-quoted - I didnt say all those things :-( Its a well known fact that Slavey & i dont agree on too many things.

Dave Whettingsteel

1397 posts

Dave Whettingsteel

WA, 1397 posts

18 May 2013 3:13pm

I checked my harness today and found the spreader bar half cracked through where it links to the webbing strap. Glad I checked as that snapping on a windy day would not have been a lot of fun. Thanks for the replacement Kim!

Gorgo

VIC

5124 posts

Gorgo

VIC, 5124 posts

18 May 2013 5:54pm

puppetonastring said..

...
Not dissing you Gorgo - it just aint that simple when it really hits the fan.

...

You're entitled to your opinion but my comments come from experience. I'm not just making stuff up to fill in time at the keyboard. I won't go into a detailed list but I have experienced at least one of most things in a couple of thousand hours kiting.

Rule 1. Avoid stuff that will hurt you. Leave a buffer.
Other rule 1. Breathe air not water.
Other, other rule 1. Don't panic.
Rule 2. Deal with the situation.

I suspect part of the problem is the notion that "I can do anything because I have a 100% depowerable kite and I just have to pull this red thing and everything will be alright.". The reality is that kiting is dangerous and there are situations where you have to do stuff that will save your life. It comes down to personal resources, not the brand of kite you have or the kind of leash you use.

iandvnt

QLD

581 posts

iandvnt

QLD, 581 posts

18 May 2013 5:56pm

I been using Ross Clarke-Jones's idea of imagining dancing with a bunch of super hot chicks at a club during a hold down - works pretty damn good for chilling out, and if about to eat **** big time and I know it, I hyperventilate real fast.

zarb

NSW

703 posts

zarb

NSW, 703 posts

18 May 2013 6:15pm

Be careful hyperventilating before a breath hold. It will impair your body's response to increased levels of C02 (the response being - your brain telling you to take a breath). If you hyperventilate it does deaden the pain of a long breath hold, but the trade off is that your brain will not know it needs oxygen until you blackout.
I know it's unlikely to be a big deal in a situation where you will be wanting to take a breath as soon as possible anyway, but if you push it too much, you will not give yourself enough time to surface and you will possibly face a blackout. And blackouts have occurred even shortly after surfacing.

cutch

67 posts

cutch

WA, 67 posts

18 May 2013 5:06pm

Ok so now I'm thinking about getting a knife. Who wears one and where do you keep it?

I have a Mystic Warrior and the little line cutter in there would only help if you can cut kite lines (yours or someone elses) wrapped around you & within reach. Totally useless in a death loop scenario, although I'm not convinced a bigger knife would be much help there either.

iandvnt

QLD

581 posts

iandvnt

QLD, 581 posts

18 May 2013 7:11pm

thx for the info, it's usually whatever got time for max 4 sharp hard as breaths and a biggie - not like freediving stuff - reckon that's ok?

zarb

NSW

703 posts

zarb

NSW, 703 posts

18 May 2013 8:01pm

Better to take fewer slower deeper breaths if you can manage it. And only hold 80% - 90% of lung capacity instead of 100%. You will find you can hold your breath for longer when it's comfortable for your diaphram and lungs. Max capacity is uncomfortable.

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