sn said..

Sailhack said..
On my first day of apprenticeship when I was 15 I was told "you come to work with 10 fingers...you go home with 10 fingers", which was followed by the qualified old guy counting his fingers in front of my face 1...2...3 etc.

Out of the entire crew of wood-machinist instructors at Leederville tech. that had the "honour" of teaching me and my classmates during our apprenticeships, I reckon there would have been enough complete fingers to [almost] outfit one bloke.

heck - one of my classmates lost his middle finger down to the second knuckle in a drum sander - on his first day at work

As for glaziers - every one of those that I have dealt with over the years had lots of bragworthy scars - and were often missing either bits of fingers or an ear [or two]


Hey Jupiter - keep us posted with how you go.

stephen

sn,

Thank you for the interest, and I shall keep you posted about whatever "eventually" happened You are one of the "many" contributors who actually talked sense. I appreciate that.

By the way, one the very first cabinet maker tradies I contacted promised to pay the property a visit Yesterday. I never received a call from him. I rang him up today to see what it going on. The answer was that he is very busy, and will look at it ASAP. How long is a piece of string?

sn said..

As for glaziers - every one of those that I have dealt with over the years had lots of bragworthy scars - and were often missing either bits of fingers or an ear [or two]

Without turning this thread into a list of work war stories that could go on forever (although we're probably already there), I remember as an apprentice watching a few glaziers handle a large sheet (3.6 x 1.8) of 6mm float glass through a tight spot in our workshop one day. The guy at the front just touched the concrete floor and suddenly (shhhhht) a crack went the full length of the sheet. The guy at the back only just got his hand out of the suction cup handle in time that the top half of the sheet came straight down his shoulder. I felt sick and he went pale...upon closer inspection, the sleeve of his flannel shirt had peeled all the way down from his shoulder and all the hairs on his arm were shaved off - but not a scratch on him!

Much respect for handling glass after witnessing that.

IMO any little fill in job should be booked out as a full days wages (bonus if you can fit two little jobs in on same day)
plus cost of materials because,

(1). It will not allow you to do a full days work at your normal job, therefore you have made less money for the day as you normally would.
(2). There will always be something that does not go to plan, break a screw, part missing from unopened package etc.
(3). Customer / tenants keep you waiting.
(5). Then the case of "hey mate, while your here have a look at this" "what do you think I can do with this broken......." Free advise will cost you time.
(6). Yer mate, Ill just duck down to the bank and get the cash out, mind hanging about for me?
(7). Or, oh I don't get paid till next month, Ill drop the money to you then.
(8). So that was $200 for cash ?????? (no mate, $300 was the cash price)
(9). Customer isn't quite happy so want your to redo a perfect job.

I believe many of you would agree and can add to this list.

I am a tradie and run my own small home building company for many years, and now im in sales, dealing with builders, customers.

Ps, Jupiter, in no way this is aimed at you (you seem like a pretty clever bloke) I'm just adding my two cents worth to the discussion.

Yes I can count, but the wind has just come in my front window, time to hit the beach

play nice kiddies

^^^ That's ok if your focus is on money. I'm a bit like Jupiter in that I like to think that I'm providing a good-standard of service for the clients, therefore can't justify charging a full rate for a very small job and generally do them knowing that I'm losing money on those jobs, I also admit that I don't do many of them at a time so it's not much of a loss in the long run and they do typically lead to better WOM advertising and more work. I also tend to spend more time on projects than I allow for during the quoting stage, which is more to do with meeting my own standards than anything else.

On the other hand, I don't negotiate my fees...ever. My first quote is always my best quote (so it can't be reduced), I calculate the hours the job 'should' take for each individual portion of the work at a fixed hourly rate. If the client decides that I'm too expensive for what they want to do, I thank them for the opportunity to provide a fee proposal and let them be on their way. Based on the last couple of years stats I've been successful in securing 90-95% of the projects I've quoted on, so don't 'waste' much time on un-billable administration time.

Craig66 said..
IMO any little fill in job should be booked out as a full days wages (bonus if you can fit two little jobs in on same day)
plus cost of materials because,

(1). It will not allow you to do a full days work at your normal job, therefore you have made less money for the day as you normally would.
(2). There will always be something that does not go to plan, break a screw, part missing from unopened package etc.
(3). Customer / tenants keep you waiting.
(5). Then the case of "hey mate, while your here have a look at this" "what do you think I can do with this broken......." Free advise will cost you time.
(6). Yer mate, Ill just duck down to the bank and get the cash out, mind hanging about for me?
(7). Or, oh I don't get paid till next month, Ill drop the money to you then.
(8). So that was $200 for cash ?????? (no mate, $300 was the cash price)
(9). Customer isn't quite happy so want your to redo a perfect job.

I believe many of you would agree and can add to this list.

I am a tradie and run my own small home building company for many years, and now im in sales, dealing with builders, customers.

Ps, Jupiter, in no way this is aimed at you (you seem like a pretty clever bloke) I'm just adding my two cents worth to the discussion.

Yes I can count, but the wind has just come in my front window, time to hit the beach

play nice kiddies

So what you are saying that if possible, the said tradie may end up making $600 for the day? By that logic, you must be retired and rolling in money now that you did own your own building company.

Yo are making up all these scenarios and non-existent excuses to over-charge people. Would it help you if I tell you that my agent is taking care of the face-to-face interaction with the tradie. In fact, I doubt the agent will even bother to hang around to check how the tradie goes. So your "added" charges are nothing more that fiction. However, if you actually did that to your client, then you obviously had been overcharging them

Craig66, the reason I posted this topic is to see what is the true value of a replacement drawer. I thought it will help me, and hopefully others on this forum.

Jupiter said..

Craig66 said..
IMO any little fill in job should be booked out as a full days wages (bonus if you can fit two little jobs in on same day)
plus cost of materials because,

(1). It will not allow you to do a full days work at your normal job, therefore you have made less money for the day as you normally would.
(2). There will always be something that does not go to plan, break a screw, part missing from unopened package etc.
(3). Customer / tenants keep you waiting.
(5). Then the case of "hey mate, while your here have a look at this" "what do you think I can do with this broken......." Free advise will cost you time.
(6). Yer mate, Ill just duck down to the bank and get the cash out, mind hanging about for me?
(7). Or, oh I don't get paid till next month, Ill drop the money to you then.
(8). So that was $200 for cash ?????? (no mate, $300 was the cash price)
(9). Customer isn't quite happy so want your to redo a perfect job.

I believe many of you would agree and can add to this list.

I am a tradie and run my own small home building company for many years, and now im in sales, dealing with builders, customers.

Ps, Jupiter, in no way this is aimed at you (you seem like a pretty clever bloke) I'm just adding my two cents worth to the discussion.

Yes I can count, but the wind has just come in my front window, time to hit the beach

play nice kiddies

So what you are saying that if possible, the said tradie may end up making $600 for the day? By that logic, you must be retired and rolling in money now that you did own your own building company.

Yo are making up all these scenarios and non-existent excuses to over-charge people. Would it help you if I tell you that my agent is taking care of the face-to-face interaction with the tradie. In fact, I doubt the agent will even bother to hang around to check how the tradie goes. So your "added" charges are nothing more that fiction. However, if you actually did that to your client, then you obviously had been overcharging them

Craig66, the reason I posted this topic is to see what is the true value of a replacement drawer. I thought it will help me, and hopefully others on this forum.

No not rolling in money as I was stung by several of the scenarios above. Im now wiser to the ways of the world

Here is a true story for you.

In one day I made $800.00 (well that is what I was paid for a day on a job) the funny thing is the owner of the rental property I was working on also made $800 with out lifting a finger other than rip off his insurance company.
He did not put my $800 quote to the insurance company but chose to give them the two higher quotes, $1600 and $2400, he took a cash pay out for the $1600 and paid me my quoted $800, (all this I found out weeks after I did the job)

Also I and I think most other on this thread were of the belief that you were chasing this up your self, not your property manager as there was no mention of him/her. So who are you checking up on, the tradie or the property manager ?

Here's a tip,
Maybe next time try a woodworking forum for such questions, and use this one for fixing stuff like snapped boards like I have.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/General-Discussion/Chat/Stuff-I-broke-todayBugger/

But I must say, your draw is a fun topic

Craig66 said..

Jupiter said..

Craig66 said..
IMO any little fill in job should be booked out as a full days wages (bonus if you can fit two little jobs in on same day)
plus cost of materials because,

(1). It will not allow you to do a full days work at your normal job, therefore you have made less money for the day as you normally would.
(2). There will always be something that does not go to plan, break a screw, part missing from unopened package etc.
(3). Customer / tenants keep you waiting.
(5). Then the case of "hey mate, while your here have a look at this" "what do you think I can do with this broken......." Free advise will cost you time.
(6). Yer mate, Ill just duck down to the bank and get the cash out, mind hanging about for me?
(7). Or, oh I don't get paid till next month, Ill drop the money to you then.
(8). So that was $200 for cash ?????? (no mate, $300 was the cash price)
(9). Customer isn't quite happy so want your to redo a perfect job.

I believe many of you would agree and can add to this list.

I am a tradie and run my own small home building company for many years, and now im in sales, dealing with builders, customers.

Ps, Jupiter, in no way this is aimed at you (you seem like a pretty clever bloke) I'm just adding my two cents worth to the discussion.

Yes I can count, but the wind has just come in my front window, time to hit the beach

play nice kiddies

So what you are saying that if possible, the said tradie may end up making $600 for the day? By that logic, you must be retired and rolling in money now that you did own your own building company.

Yo are making up all these scenarios and non-existent excuses to over-charge people. Would it help you if I tell you that my agent is taking care of the face-to-face interaction with the tradie. In fact, I doubt the agent will even bother to hang around to check how the tradie goes. So your "added" charges are nothing more that fiction. However, if you actually did that to your client, then you obviously had been overcharging them

Craig66, the reason I posted this topic is to see what is the true value of a replacement drawer. I thought it will help me, and hopefully others on this forum.

No not rolling in money as I was stung by several of the scenarios above. Im now wiser to the ways of the world

Here is a true story for you.

In one day I made $800.00 (well that is what I was paid for a day on a job) the funny thing is the owner of the rental property I was working on also made $800 with out lifting a finger other than rip off his insurance company.
He did not put my $800 quote to the insurance company but chose to give them the two higher quotes, $1600 and $2400, he took a cash pay out for the $1600 and paid me my quoted $800, (all this I found out weeks after I did the job)

Also I and I think most other on this thread were of the belief that you were chasing this up your self, not your property manager as there was no mention of him/her. So who are you checking up on, the tradie or the property manager ?

Here's a tip,
Maybe next time try a woodworking forum for such questions, and use this one for fixing stuff like snapped boards like I have.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/General-Discussion/Chat/Stuff-I-broke-todayBugger/

But I must say, your draw is a fun topic

For a start, the thread was put up for those who "chose" to read it, and to reply to it. I didn't see anywhere in my posts that said you must do such. So your tip is unnecessary. Thanks all the same.

I am not the type who will pay whatever is asked for. Properties are not a gold mine which the owners are prepared to pay willy nilly. I checked up on the tradie's quote as well as the property manager's ability to get me the best quote. I supposed it is only fair that money ultimately comes out of pocket ?

Elroy Jetson said..
I don't currently have the time to summarise my 14 years of quoting experience. Maybe tomorrow. But if you want the cheapest possible job then meet the tradie on site and tell them you will be there to pay them when its time to fit the finished product. If you don't care about the cost then do as you are currently doing. Increase the Tradies workload by expecting the Tradie to jump through several hoops. The higher quote price reflects the extra time and cost to complete the job.

Thank you for the offer, Elroy Jetson. I don't know if you are aware of the fact that the tradie doesn't get pay by me, but by a third party, ie. the real estate agent. In the simplest term, there is no reason for the agent to refuse paying in full for the job done. It is a given. As you are aware, the agent will issue a work order to the tradie after a quote is agreed between the parties. When and if the job is done to the satisfaction of the agent, it will be paid. I, as the owner, have no say what so over in the payment issue.

The core issue is not about whether the tradie gets paid or not, but about how much I am expected to pay for a "satisfactory" job.

But first you'll have to provide a written quote to Jupiter's property manager Cauncy. They'll email you back several times to clarify points on your quote.

Several days will pass.

After this is done they issue a work order.

Then they'll get you to provide evidence of public liability insurance. 10 million isnt enough. Most require 20 million public liabilty insurance. So before you can start work you'll have to get on to emailing that out.

Then you have to agree to their payment terms, possibly have to go into their office and sign some forms.

Several more days pass.

Then you have to liase with Jupiter's tenants a suitable time to work at the property. But they work full time during the week. They arent absolutely sure but they think Saturday week should be OK.

After the job is done you are required to provide an invoice to the property manager but with the owners name on the Invoice. Providing their Client has the money in the account you should get paid in a month, if not then then you agree that its ok for them to pay you the following month.

Because every Tradie likes having to be reminded every day of the unpaid Invoice stapled above the computer for 2 months.

And granted, the property manager will be anable to be of assistance if the client hasnt added the money into the client account. The Invoice is in the owners name and nothing at all to do with the Property Manager. You havent met the Owners or know where they live but now it's up to you to somehow recover the money.

Then finally an email comes through from the property manager with a screen shot of the owners bank transfer into your account. For a moment you feel relieved that the job has finally been paid for. But wait. Your account number is missing a number. You email the property manager back to tell them the owners have somehow missed a number and that the transfer hasn't in fact gone through.

Several more days pass.

Then. Congratulations. Payment for the small job you did 70 days ago has been successfully transferred into your account.


Ha ha. How's that simply 30 min job sounding now?

Elroy Jetson said...
But first you'll have to provide a written quote to Jupiter's property manager Cauncy. They'll email you back several times to clarify points on your quote.

Several days will pass.

After this is done they issue a work order.

Then they'll get you to provide evidence of public liability insurance. 10 million isnt enough. Most require 20 million public liabilty insurance. So before you can start work you'll have to get on to emailing that out.

Then you have to agree to their payment terms, possibly have to go into their office and sign some forms.

Several more days pass.

Then you have to liase with Jupiter's tenants a suitable time to work at the property. But they work full time during the week. They arent absolutely sure but they think Saturday week should be OK.

After the job is done you are required to provide an invoice to the property manager but with the owners name on the Invoice. Providing their Client has the money in the account you should get paid in a month, if not then then you agree that its ok for them to pay you the following month.

Because every Tradie likes having to be reminded every day of the unpaid Invoice stapled above the computer for 2 months.

And granted, the property manager will be anable to be of assistance if the client hasnt added the money into the client account. The Invoice is in the owners name and nothing at all to do with the Property Manager. You havent met the Owners or know where they live but now it's up to you to somehow recover the money.

Then finally an email comes through from the property manager with a screen shot of the owners bank transfer into your account. For a moment you feel relieved that the job has finally been paid for. But wait. Your account number is missing a number. You email the property manager back to tell them the owners have somehow missed a number and that the transfer hasn't in fact gone through.

Several more days pass.

Then. Congratulations. Payment for the small job you did 70 days ago has been successfully transferred into your account.


Ha ha. How's that simply 30 min job sounding now?

Elroy has perfectly summed up the daily situation in my workshop also . The constant chasing of unpaid invoices for client's that just "gotta have it yesterday " costs further time/money on top of the outstanding debt , not to mention the frustration of putting other work on hold in order to help a client out , only to be rewarded with non or slow payment ...

It's a glass half empty ideology but it seems the majority of new generation of "selfie " loving people feel it's acceptable and normal to rack up debts all over the city and then skip town , beginning the process somewhere new .

In general it's the older generation of clients that are by far the best customers , so much so that our rates are reduced for older folk . They turn up earlier than the agreed time and wait until the agreed time to knock on the door , offer to pay a deposit prior to work beginning and pay the balance upon completion . I was raised this way also and so will my kids , it is purely courtesy and the right thing to do .

Apologies for the rant but it seems that the combination of a throw away society mentality combined with cheaper and inferior products flooding the market from overseas is having a knock on affect for tradies and the like that the public just don't understand or care about .

People see items on Ebay etc that "look" the same as a product built here but can't justify spending 3 times the cost for the locally made product . When said product fails and the "warranty" is not worth the paper it's written on , they seek out a local tradie to weld this up , re-wire that up and will still b@&$h about the price !

The initial and previous posts revolve around $$$ for a cutlery drawer . As a tradie and business owner , I agree that $300 for a complete drawer is fair , considering that after all of the "hidden" costs are factored in ( wages , taxes , non - productive hours quoting and travelling to a job , set up and cleanup , travel back to workshop ) , very little is left for the mug who runs the shop !

There are rouge tradies that bring us all down but the majority of us are on time , on budget and reasonably expect payment on or as soon as possible after the job is complete , not much to ask .

I have often put it to slow paying customers that they can't go to the supermarket and fill the trolley and tell the cashier they'll " pay you next month " so why should tradies be any different ?

I may have missed it but what do you think this job is worth?

Wow Harrow, now we need a price for a full drawer set? Based on the comments so far, that could be... Interesting

Elroy Jetson said..
But first you'll have to provide a written quote to Jupiter's property manager Cauncy. They'll email you back several times to clarify points on your quote.

Several days will pass.

After this is done they issue a work order.

Then they'll get you to provide evidence of public liability insurance. 10 million isnt enough. Most require 20 million public liabilty insurance. So before you can start work you'll have to get on to emailing that out.

Then you have to agree to their payment terms, possibly have to go into their office and sign some forms.

Several more days pass.

Then you have to liase with Jupiter's tenants a suitable time to work at the property. But they work full time during the week. They arent absolutely sure but they think Saturday week should be OK.

After the job is done you are required to provide an invoice to the property manager but with the owners name on the Invoice. Providing their Client has the money in the account you should get paid in a month, if not then then you agree that its ok for them to pay you the following month.

Because every Tradie likes having to be reminded every day of the unpaid Invoice stapled above the computer for 2 months.

And granted, the property manager will be anable to be of assistance if the client hasnt added the money into the client account. The Invoice is in the owners name and nothing at all to do with the Property Manager. You havent met the Owners or know where they live but now it's up to you to somehow recover the money.

Then finally an email comes through from the property manager with a screen shot of the owners bank transfer into your account. For a moment you feel relieved that the job has finally been paid for. But wait. Your account number is missing a number. You email the property manager back to tell them the owners have somehow missed a number and that the transfer hasn't in fact gone through.

Several more days pass.

Then. Congratulations. Payment for the small job you did 70 days ago has been successfully transferred into your account.


Ha ha. How's that simply 30 min job sounding now?

This will be my last reply as we all have had enough fun to date. Although it is only a small job, but it does highlight the array of opinions from various folks. Some of them are well-informed and worth reading. Some claimed years of experience and yet, judging by the replies, know very little. Some suggest to just pick any old quote as a rental property is ripping tenants off anyway. Others reckons it is unfair to the tradies to waste their time to do quotes, and then not getting the job in the end.

Has anyone heard of the eBay? You know the place where you place a bid for something you want? Most time you don't get it because some prick placed a few extra cents over yours. Do you ask eBay to compensate you for the loss bid? Or the time you spent on bidding?

Bidding for a job is the opposite to that. You place a "fair" bid, possibly the lowest, to compete for a job. If you have good references, or have built up a client relationship, you stand a better chance to get it.

But that is fine as this is a forum, perhaps not an appropriate one as it is a water sports site. The fact is, if it was ignored, it wouldn't have lived for so long. I must said that I quite enjoy it

Elroy Jetson professed to have years of experience in such matters. Unfortunately, he seemed to have little understanding in the going-ons in the real estate business. Tradies don't get paid by the owner. The real estate agent pays the tradie "after" it is done satisfactorily. There is a "trust account" in the owner's name managed by the agent. From the trust account, the agent pays the tradie. The trust account will have rents for the month because the owner only gets paid at the end of the month What this meant is that the tradie gets the priority in payment ahead of the owner.

Given all the facts provided, I hope it is now clear as mud to Elroy Jetson that there won't be a 70 days delay in payment. The main concern for me, the owner, is whether he is paying a "fair" price for a job well done. All those "dooms day" scenarios such as not getting paid, are mere rubbish and speculations

I hope we can now all go and catch some winds. For your information, I may have a set of 4 used drawers offered by a generous soul here on the forum.

It has been good to gather your opinions.

Great thread, I look forward to the next!

Good one Jupiter , even though this draw drama hasnt been resolvred yet . Here .


I do look forward to your next minor maintenance dilemma requiring our determinations of , if your being ripped off or not .