Quarter of U.S mortgages underwater

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wodgina6722
wodgina6722
229 posts
229 posts
31 Jul 2011 11:01am
I bought mine when I was uni I knew my time was up (living at home with my parents) when they started to look for a house for me. I was resistant at the time (21) and wanted to buy a campervan and tinny. I took it for granted at the time but they really did set me up.

BTW I paid the deposit and all the mortgage payments I never asked for any money and never will.
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15100 posts
WA, 15100 posts
31 Jul 2011 6:56pm
cisco said...

Think Real Estate.

It is like SEX. You should get as much of it as you possibly can while you are still young.


Yeah, but at the moment it might be a case of rushing into a quick fling, not doing your research properly, paying too much and walking way with a disease that will take a decade to get over.
busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
31 Jul 2011 7:34pm
Peter . You can
1) pay someone else house of via renting
or
2) You can pay your own house of buy buying

Once your house is paid of :
No one can tell you what you can and cant
do no one can kick you out
no once can increase the rent
No one can ever take it away from you. and you have something to leave your kids and give them a headstart (if you care)

housing price falling and rising is irrelevant you still need a roof over your head.
elcoco
elcoco
WA
114 posts
WA, 114 posts
31 Jul 2011 7:42pm
saltiest1 said...

elcoco said...

What is a reasonable income to mortgage ratio ??

The average house price in australia is 430 grand +/- !


well the norm used to be a third of after tax income was dedicated to the mortgage. any higher and youd be in stress. now its a bit higher.



Have done some rough calculations, If you used 1/3 of your after tax income to pay the average mortgage of 400 grand you need to be clearing 7800 a month that is 94 grand after tax a year.

You dudes who bought houses pre 2005 - 07 are laughing. Sucks to be starting off now!
latedropeddy
latedropeddy
VIC
417 posts
VIC, 417 posts
31 Jul 2011 10:48pm

I have a house for sale in Melbourne, built in the 70's, brick veneer. It would be a perfect candidate for one of those reno show's - it would be a great burden off my chest if someone will buy it from me in as - is condition (so I can go windsurfing and surfing more).

There are plenty of houses in the area that are getting reno'd - as all the oldies are moving into retirement homes young blood is moving into the area and spending money.

Asking price $500k negotiable. PM me if interested.
petermac33
petermac33
WA
6415 posts
WA, 6415 posts
31 Jul 2011 10:46pm
buster i'm no expert on this renting v buying...... but if you buy a house you have to put a cash deposit down,then likely take a large loan from the bank----this loan i do believe is called DEBT!!!

now if interest rates were to double to say 15% like they have done in the past,your monthly repayments will double.[for possibly duration of loan]

if the house were to depreciate in value like it obviously will,as no ct has any money these days [and can't afford to buy], then effectively you have lost your deposit and are also in DEBT to the bank for hundreds of thousands.

the potential emotional stress of paying of a big 20-30 year mortgage DEBT,with huge monthly interest payments to whoever owns the banks....well no f...ing thanks.

as certain as climate change is a fraud,house prices and the stock market are going to crash soon,bigger than you will ever believe.

in the past buying a house has been a better choice than renting,but not any more.

pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
1 Aug 2011 2:14am
I would add on top of some possible long-term monetary gain, there is an associated change in lifestyle - not for the best.

Buying a house makes you stale. You start cocooning, you stop doing sport and going out. Can't go with the old mates: gotta mow the lawn. You start renovating (and much, much worse: you watch renovation programs on TV). When after 5 years you're done going around the house renovating each room, you start all over again. Unlike what you see on TV, most of the renovation adds little to the value of the house: the next buyer won't like the colours and walls anyways. You will also build a nice deck with pretty flowers all over the yard, where you will spend more and more time, with ever less going out. However you will visit other friends that have decks, so you can compare your respective abodes. This becomes your new social life.

If you're with a missus, and she watches more TV than you or gets clucky, then multiply the cocooning effect by 2 or 3. Set aside also a fair chunk of add'l $$ for furniture: it's a lot more expensive for garnish your own home than a rented condo - curtains, everything.

After 15-20 years of fixing and refixing, you start relaxing a bit. You start living again. Seems to happen when people reach 45-50 or so.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a homeowner myself, but I look around my street and a large % of their time is not spent living. Yes they will most likely have more equity when they're older - I know I will.

You guessed it, I haven't painted the walls in 12 years. It's been a long fight with the missus, but she don't windsurf - I do.
stamp
stamp
QLD
2797 posts
QLD, 2797 posts
1 Aug 2011 9:23am
^^^ i don't agree with that. boring beige people are boring and beige whether they own a house, rent, or live in a tent.
stehsegler
stehsegler
WA
3571 posts
WA, 3571 posts
1 Aug 2011 7:59am
pierrec45 said...
Don't get me wrong, I'm a homeowner myself, but I look around my street and a large % of their time is not spent living. Yes they will most likely have more equity when they're older - I know I will.


Mate, that's pretty much Sydney live in a nutshell. For most people the idea of living measured how many times hey go to expensive restaurants, what suburb they live in and how they stack up to the Jonses. It seems the majority of people measure happyness in dollar terms.

All good but then why does Australia have some of the highest suicide rates in the world. If it was such a lucky and happy place shouldn't everyone live happily ever after?

Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
1 Aug 2011 10:06am
pierrec45 said...

I would add on top of some possible long-term monetary gain, there is an associated change in lifestyle - not for the best.

Buying a house makes you stale. You start cocooning, you stop doing sport and going out. Can't go with the old mates: gotta mow the lawn. You start renovating (and much, much worse: you watch renovation programs on TV). When after 5 years you're done going around the house renovating each room, you start all over again. Unlike what you see on TV, most of the renovation adds little to the value of the house: the next buyer won't like the colours and walls anyways. You will also build a nice deck with pretty flowers all over the yard, where you will spend more and more time, with ever less going out. However you will visit other friends that have decks, so you can compare your respective abodes. This becomes your new social life.

If you're with a missus, and she watches more TV than you or gets clucky, then multiply the cocooning effect by 2 or 3. Set aside also a fair chunk of add'l $$ for furniture: it's a lot more expensive for garnish your own home than a rented condo - curtains, everything.

After 15-20 years of fixing and refixing, you start relaxing a bit. You start living again. Seems to happen when people reach 45-50 or so.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a homeowner myself, but I look around my street and a large % of their time is not spent living. Yes they will most likely have more equity when they're older - I know I will.

You guessed it, I haven't painted the walls in 12 years. It's been a long fight with the missus, but she don't windsurf - I do.



Sort-of agree, but because my wife (then girlfriend) & I bought our 1st place at age 19, we don't know any different. You could use the same analogy for having kids. We've renovated (put 15sqs on top), and had 3 kids in the past 8 years, and only now getting back to having what you call an easy lifestyle (although with a 1yr old - not so easy). W/surfing, suping, camping, fishing etc. every weekend.

I don't think we're in the 'beige' category - but we both work (me full-time, my wife 3 days a week), 2 kids at school and a toddler at daycare 2 days a week. By purchasing our house pre-2000, our house is worth over 3 times what we bought it for and spent on renos, which has given us equity (mate) to allow us to invest in more property, most of which is tenanted, so basically pays for itself. We regularly get letters from our RE agent to increase the tenant's rent, but choose not to, as it keeps the places full, and although it might prop up our bank balance...that's not what we're about.

My wife (who is a home finance manager, which saves me from trying to get my head around it) has set up the loans so that (in theory) by the time we're ready to retire, the mortgages will be paid off, and we can retire comfortably on either the rental income, or sell. In the meantime, we're scratching coins together to afford little luxuries (2nd-hand w/surfing gear etc.) like everyone else?!

There's positives & negatives for owning your own home, but I'm glad we bought young (1st home in '94 = $60k)...I feel for young people trying to get money together to buy the same home now for $200k (local market value of same house), I couldn't even imagine trying to buy in the city at urban prices ($400k+).

My father also told me to "buy young", and I always remember what an old property developer told me, "if you buy a block of land, and things go pear-shaped...you can always pitch a tent on that block of land and live there, you can't pitch a tent on a share portfolio".
wodgina6722
wodgina6722
229 posts
229 posts
1 Aug 2011 8:23am
400k for house on the outer burbs is ridiculous.

I know people buying houses at the moment and I want to scream 'don't do it!'

The main reason for expensive housing now is not the mining boom but dual income households. This is something which has been socially engineered into the population (feminism) as has divorce. It's not about equal rights it's about transfer of wealth to the rich.
bundeep
bundeep
14 posts
14 posts
1 Aug 2011 10:21am
From my perspective it seems a better financial decision to rent rather than buy at the moment.

The house i rent just sold for 550k. An interst only loan @ 7% equals 38.5k a year in payments (not paying any of the house off)

My rent is 460 a week, which equals roughly 24k a year. Plus i don't pay rates, insurance or maintenence. Essentially that makes me at least 15k better off per year providing house prices don't rise.

In the longer term house prices will probably rise (being the long term trend) so the maths doesn't add up. However, at the moment it doesn't look like house prices will rise for a while, and i don't see any reason to take a 'punt' that they will. Especially when the only financial benefit is capital gains, or the hope that someone will pay more than i do for an asset thats financial returns are less than cash.
Little Jon
Little Jon
NSW
2115 posts
NSW, 2115 posts
1 Aug 2011 1:56pm
adolf said...

Just watched a great docco on the G.F.C. called "Inside Job"

For anyone vaguely interested in the economy, or how the G.F.C. came about it's a good watch.

Nothing has been learnt by what happened in the U.S. and they are once again facing some major trouble in the weeks ahead - a huge social security payment is due in mid August and it doesn't look like they have the money to pay it.

Interesting times ahead.


Saw the doco too, basically its corruption of right wing governments too closely associated with business.
Little Jon
Little Jon
NSW
2115 posts
NSW, 2115 posts
1 Aug 2011 1:59pm
FlySurfer said...

pweedas said...

Yes Pweet, but you seem to miss the point.
You can pay rent for 20 years and it might even be a bit cheaper than paying a mortgage, but,... at the end of 20 years paying rent you have NOTHING! ZERO ! ZILCH! S.F.A. !!


Buddy I've got to call BS on this.
If you pay rent and smoke the rest of your money maybe, but if you pay rent keep the change in a high interest account and compound the interest you may be better off.
If you invest your money in other areas, gold, stocks, developing markets you could be much better off.

In Australia the tax code is designed to promote property ownership, and consequently there has been disproportional investment in this sector.

I rent, and I rent close to where I work... I try to make it close to where I work and the beach but that's not always possible... 5 minutes to work, how much is that saving me???



Time is priceless, money you go get more of but when time slips away it you never get it back.
hoagie
hoagie
VIC
284 posts
VIC, 284 posts
1 Aug 2011 3:05pm


Sort-of agree, but because my wife (then girlfriend) & I bought our 1st place at age 19, we don't know any different. You could use the same analogy for having kids. We've renovated (put 15sqs on top), and had 3 kids in the past 8 years, and only now getting back to having what you call an easy lifestyle (although with a 1yr old - not so easy). W/surfing, suping, camping, fishing etc. every weekend.

I don't think we're in the 'beige' category - but we both work (me full-time, my wife 3 days a week), 2 kids at school and a toddler at daycare 2 days a week. By purchasing our house pre-2000, our house is worth over 3 times what we bought it for and spent on renos, which has given us equity (mate) to allow us to invest in more property, most of which is tenanted, so basically pays for itself. We regularly get letters from our RE agent to increase the tenant's rent, but choose not to, as it keeps the places full, and although it might prop up our bank balance...that's not what we're about.

My wife (who is a home finance manager, which saves me from trying to get my head around it) has set up the loans so that (in theory) by the time we're ready to retire, the mortgages will be paid off, and we can retire comfortably on either the rental income, or sell. In the meantime, we're scratching coins together to afford little luxuries (2nd-hand w/surfing gear etc.) like everyone else?!

There's positives & negatives for owning your own home, but I'm glad we bought young (1st home in '94 = $60k)...I feel for young people trying to get money together to buy the same home now for $200k (local market value of same house), I couldn't even imagine trying to buy in the city at urban prices ($400k+).

My father also told me to "buy young", and I always remember what an old property developer told me, "if you buy a block of land, and things go pear-shaped...you can always pitch a tent on that block of land and live there, you can't pitch a tent on a share portfolio".


Good points sailhack. 20 years ago people where complaining about high house prices. when I got my first home in 1989 interest rates were 17%. What we need to do is live within our means. Back in 89 I had no plasma, iphone, internet. Start small and work your way up, people want to much too quickly now. I'm lucky I live in a debt free house and I would tell everyone to try and get a start no matter how small the unit or house. Invest in the best quality you can for your future. I send my kids to private schools but drive an old commodore so they can. Remeber we can't have it all.
theDoctor
theDoctor
NSW
5786 posts
NSW, 5786 posts
1 Aug 2011 3:08pm
hoagie said...



Good points sailhack. 20 years ago people where complaining about high house prices. when I got my first home in 1989 interest rates were 17%. What we need to do is live within our means. Back in 89 I had no plasma, iphone, internet. Start small and work your way up, people want to much too quickly now. I'm lucky I live in a debt free house and I would tell everyone to try and get a start no matter how small the unit or house. Invest in the best quality you can for your future. I send my kids to private schools but drive an old commodore so they can. Remeber we can't have it all.


there-in lays half the secret

piorities

its all about the priorities
GreenPat
GreenPat
QLD
4103 posts
QLD, 4103 posts
1 Aug 2011 6:39pm
petermac33 said...

climate change is a fraud


Climate change is a geological phenomenon. Human influences to climate change have been a hot topic recently, but are you referring to that debate, or are you saying that you don't believe that 100 million years ago the earth's atmosphere was ~30% oxygen?
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
1 Aug 2011 4:53pm
GreenPat said...

petermac33 said...

climate change is a fraud


Climate change is a geological phenomenon. Human influences to climate change have been a hot topic recently, but are you referring to that debate, or are you saying that you don't believe that 100 million years ago the earth's atmosphere was ~30% oxygen?


PM33 = O2 theif
evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
2 Aug 2011 1:12pm
petermac33 said...

what does this mean to me?

the banks own more and more real estate,people are in debt big-time.

if rent is cheaper than paying your mortgage,then i would just walk away as house price is not going to go up.

www.huffpost.com/entry/big-oil-profits_n_913452


I was seriously looking at doing this a few days back. Sell all real estate, cash in, rent by the beach for a few years.

After I summed rates, water, body corp, interest etc and compared against just renting ...the difference was kinda negligible. Especially when I considered the cost of exiting the market and buying back in again when things looks better. That alone is like $60K++.

I'm going to hang in the indefinitely. Easier, and probably cheaper.
(I'll put a spreadsheet up when I've double checked the costs)

SomeOtherGuy
SomeOtherGuy
NSW
807 posts
NSW, 807 posts
2 Aug 2011 8:14pm
Meanwhile interest rates are still on hold. Good. I can start breathing again.
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
2 Aug 2011 9:01pm
elcoco said...

saltiest1 said...

elcoco said...

What is a reasonable income to mortgage ratio ??

The average house price in australia is 430 grand +/- !


well the norm used to be a third of after tax income was dedicated to the mortgage. any higher and youd be in stress. now its a bit higher.



Have done some rough calculations, If you used 1/3 of your after tax income to pay the average mortgage of 400 grand you need to be clearing 7800 a month that is 94 grand after tax a year.

You dudes who bought houses pre 2005 - 07 are laughing. Sucks to be starting off now!


Ah, you youngsters spend too much on toys.
our first house was 85% of our income , but was $10pw cheaper than renting, we sold most of our possesions for the deposit. mortgage rate was 17%
when we sold 4 years later , we almost doubled our money.
4 years later we had to move out of company housing and again sold off our major possesions for the deposit.New house was over 80%of income, but over $100cheaper than renting. we still live in that house and it really hasnt been a big improvement in value, BUT as the market increased our share of the house gave us buying power to put our heads on the block and , after again selling our expensive possesions bought a cheap, investment property. That property has skyrocketed in value, even withthe cheap rent we charge,it still covers the mortgage.
basically at some point you have to decide wether you want to pay for your house or somebody elses ,
SandS
SandS
VIC
5904 posts
VIC, 5904 posts
2 Aug 2011 11:21pm

It used to be that the banks would lend you the balance for housing if you had 25-30% of the purchase price . [ 1980 ]

any less of a deposit and it was considered to risky.

so what now ?
busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
2 Aug 2011 10:17pm
petermac33 said...

buster i'm no expert on this renting v buying...... but if you buy a house you have to put a cash deposit down,then likely take a large loan from the bank----this loan i do believe is called DEBT!!!

now if interest rates were to double to say 15% like they have done in the past,your monthly repayments will double.[for possibly duration of loan]

if the house were to depreciate in value like it obviously will,as no ct has any money these days [and can't afford to buy], then effectively you have lost your deposit and are also in DEBT to the bank for hundreds of thousands.

the potential emotional stress of paying of a big 20-30 year mortgage DEBT,with huge monthly interest payments to whoever owns the banks....well no f...ing thanks.


as certain as climate change is a fraud,house prices and the stock market are going to crash soon,bigger than you will ever believe.

in the past buying a house has been a better choice than renting,but not any more.




I cant comment on the situation peter I understand things are difficult and everyone believes differently . The way i was brought up was to pay of a house (own it out right ) then concentrate on retirement.
Im worried that if i get to a retirement age or one of me or my partner gets sick (which will happen) and im still stuck on a pension. I dont believe the pension will provide adequate payment for rent and good lifestyle.

I think what you are getting confused with here is investment opportunity as apposed to a roof over your head.
remember the second house is an investment The first house is your dwelling.
I struggle like everyone esle.

I work hard today to provide a better future for tomorrow. I cant see you doing that renting when you could be paying off your own home reguardless of housing price short term fluctuation.
Problem is people in a boom were purchasing investment and trying to capitalize on growth before paying of there main dwelling. bank default =Back to supply demand back from a sellers market to a buyers market.
Look after what ever you have. and dont sell.


America will be ok. Everyone now is purchasing there cheap goods and feeding there economy. So feed there economy retailly as the us dollar drops and put our country into recession aswel.
Skid
Skid
QLD
1499 posts
QLD, 1499 posts
3 Aug 2011 12:33am
SandS said...


It used to be that the banks would lend you the balance for housing if you had 25-30% of the purchase price . [ 1980 ]

any less of a deposit and it was considered to risky.

so what now ?


They typically will try to cover the risk to THEIR money. In my experience, if you have less than 20% deposit they will require you to take out mortgage insurance. This is an insurance that YOU pay the premium on, so that if you cannot repay the loan the insurance company pays the bank any shortfall when they foreclose and sell your house. (hope this makes sense)

It comes back to risk & reward, the less deposit you have, the riskier this is for the bank. Expect to pay to lower this risk (as above) or pay them a greater reward (higher rates/charges).

Seems the sub-prime debacle was fueled by spiraling risk/reward arrangements. When played out like this, the house of cards will eventually fall.
busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
3 Aug 2011 9:14pm
So how are you going to retire happily without a pension peter?
I could understand if you save and place it in fixed term bank deposits.?
Do you think the stock market has a greater return?

You could always take out a loan and take a hit in the retail sector. Least you wouldn't have a house to loose.


What are your plans ? Are you going to depend on a pension?

GalahOnTheBay
GalahOnTheBay
NSW
4188 posts
NSW, 4188 posts
4 Aug 2011 10:53am
stehsegler said...

Mate, that's pretty much Sydney live in a nutshell. For most people the idea of living measured how many times hey go to expensive restaurants, what suburb they live in and how they stack up to the Jonses. It seems the majority of people measure happyness in dollar terms.


It must suck to be one of those people, but then again they are too busy with theird heads down (or is it up?) to realise.

cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
4 Aug 2011 8:50pm
Like busterwa is saying. How do you intend spending your retirement years or more to the point, at what age do you plan to retire.

Keep in mind the old "one, four, five, forty, fifty plan". It is based on and proven by statistics and banks and insurance companies have been using it for centuries in formulating their strategies.

If you don't think it is the way things are and have been for yonks, go to the Aus Buro Stats site and you will find it confirmed.

It goes like this:-

Out of every 100 people born, 65 years later,

ONE is rich................................Has more money than he can spend.

FOUR are independant................Living comfortably within their means.

FIVE are still working..................Gubment want to raise retire age to 75.

FORTY are dead.........................Some don't make it. No probs or worries.

FIFTY are dead broke..................Pension cheque to pension cheque.




The question you need to ask yourself is:- Where do you PLAN to be at age 65 and what is your PLAN?????????

No PLAN and no ACTION and you nearly garenteed to be one of the FIFTY or the FIVE still working.

If you have a PLAN and you WORK it you have a good likelihood of being one of the FOUR or the ONE. If you are careful there is a fair chance you will not be one of the FORTY.



Last time I checked the REAL ESTATE PLAN seemed to be still working.

THINK REAL ESTATE. Like SEX, you should get as much of it as you possibly can while you are still young. Don't wait till you are thirsty to start digging your well.
SomeOtherGuy
SomeOtherGuy
NSW
807 posts
NSW, 807 posts
4 Aug 2011 9:04pm
^^^

I PLAN to be one of the FORTY.
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