Please support the licenced firearm owners of NSW

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> 10 years ago

Shooting the breeze.

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

25 Feb 2012 9:48pm

Carantoc said...

lachlan3556 said...

...

This Bill will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to reduce drive-by shootings by CRIMINALS in Sydney.

...

So what do you suggest would reduce the current rate of drive-by shootings ?

Heard a radio discussion (both sides putting their arguments) the other week about this. One interesting point in the discussion was the statistics on where unlicensed firearms that had been seized had originated and where the ammo had come from. Just from the radio discussion (as I know little else about the detail) I tended to side with the idea that if you have a license for a firearm, then you should only be able to buy ammunition for that firearm. Seems kind of pointless to have a license for one, but a free for all for the other.

Not saying I agree with the licensing system, just that surely a license for a firearm should extend to the ammo used in it, plus any parts for repair, service or re-build.

Kind of like having to have a license to own a push bike, but not to have one to ride a bike. (which curiously enough some people seem to think you should have to have a license to ride a push bike but not to own a firearm ?)

Read my earlier post .Take criminals out of drugs, problem solved .(thats why they ended alcohol prohibition )

Macroscien

QLD

6809 posts

Macroscien

QLD, 6809 posts

25 Feb 2012 9:06pm

lachlan3556 said...

NSW Premier Barry O'Farrell has announced the Firearms Amendment (Ammunition Control) Bill 2012 which will impose new restrictions on the sale of ammunition to law-abiding firearm owners and additional onerous record keeping requirements for firearm dealers

I have a little improvement to the system.
Each piece of ammunition should be stumped with registration number of the owner.
Anyway is there is any need at all for having a firearm ?

lotofwind

NSW

6451 posts

lotofwind

NSW, 6451 posts

25 Feb 2012 10:36pm

rod_bunny

1089 posts

rod_bunny

WA, 1089 posts

25 Feb 2012 8:10pm

poor relative said...

rod_bunny said...

What about the chicks set on fire in Perth... do we ban Meths or Petrol from being sold?
Do we ban all glass containers because some twat cant help himself from shoving them in peoples faces?

These things you describe have multiple uses.
Guns are made for one purpose in mind and that is killing stuff.

I fail to see the need for guns in society.

Guns have multiple uses.... I'll grant you that the main use is for killing things, however,

I fail to see a need to penalise law abiding people due to the use/misuse of things/substances.

Its the thin end of the wedge... in this case something that a majority of people in this country dont use/arent familiar with so they arent that bothered about the impact.

You dont see the need for guns, someone else cant see the need for dogs, someone else cant see the need for 300+hp cars when the speed limit is obtainable by 80hp cars.

Punish the f**kwits that are breaking the existing laws before we go off creating half arsed new ones.

cisco

QLD

12365 posts

cisco

QLD, 12365 posts

25 Feb 2012 11:06pm

Signed it. We have too many laws already.

TrevNewman

VIC

237 posts

TrevNewman

VIC, 237 posts

26 Feb 2012 3:49pm

rod_bunny said...
Its the thin end of the wedge... in this case something that a majority of people in this country dont use/arent familiar with so they arent that bothered about the impact.

You dont see the need for guns, someone else cant see the need for dogs, someone else cant see the need for 300+hp cars when the speed limit is obtainable by 80hp cars.

Punish the f**kwits that are breaking the existing laws before we go off creating half arsed new ones.

I agree. Punish hard the losers that break the existing laws.

Cat crap can be fatal to children who eat it but the neighbors cats crap all over my backyard and I have to build a lid for the sandpit, dogs crap on my front lawn, bark and could also eat my children & 4WD are environmentally criminal, lethal to pedestrians and an annoyance to most other road users so lets ban those things first as they are far more relevant than gangs shooting each other.

japie

NSW

7146 posts

japie

NSW, 7146 posts

26 Feb 2012 4:16pm

log man said...

japie said...

^^^ Does anyone give the fact that the Swiss have a unique European gun policy any thought? Also the fact that they have remained neutral in both of the last two World wars?

Strange coincidence that they are also the banking center for the people who financed both of those wars. Those folk know how important it is to have a population that is fully capable of protecting both themselves and their state. Which is why they are armed to the teeth.

You can argue that it is the left wing intelligentsia who levered/championed the anti gun laws Mark but at the end of the day the people who are driving it are those arsewipes who appreciate the fact that their agenda for global centralised government might be met with serious resistance and the fewer people there are who can and are willing to shoot back the better off they will be.

Which is why their press carry so many gormless articles with skewed logic in support of removing them entirely.

Yasee, the governments out to get us ,dig a hole and buy some baked beans.....FFS JAPIE this is ****

I don't envy your myopia, This whole thread is about government taking away yet another freedom and you cannot see it. The brainwashing worked wonders in your case. Bet it did not take much detergent either

I can just hear you arguing the case for this:

kiteboy dave

QLD

6525 posts

kiteboy dave

QLD, 6525 posts

26 Feb 2012 5:27pm

A small minority are burdened with a slight inconvenience for the greater good. Sounds like a step in the right direction to me.

Ideally they should DNA spray all ammo at each step of the supply chain, importer, wholesaler to dealer to customer. There would then be a unique combination of data to track it's history.

Crank up the jail time for anyone caught importing/posessing black market ammo.

Life would be simpler for the cops.

lachlan3556

VIC

1066 posts

lachlan3556

VIC, 1066 posts

26 Feb 2012 6:40pm

kiteboy dave said...

A small minority are burdened with a slight inconvenience for the greater good. Sounds like a step in the right direction to me.

Ideally they should DNA spray all ammo at each step of the supply chain, importer, wholesaler to dealer to customer. There would then be a unique combination of data to track it's history.

Crank up the jail time for anyone caught importing/posessing black market ammo.

Life would be simpler for the cops.

I agree with your second last point.

Its more than just a slight inconvenience this new legislation. It will go so far as to prevent some law abiding shooters from shooting how they have previously done, and handicap many others.

I just wish the govenrment would use their heads and do something that would actually work to deter/stop crime. All this is is a PR stunt, where the real crims continue to be unaffected. We need some intelligent thought and action on this issue.

Oh, and as a molecular microbiologist I have to say you can't just spray DNA onto things to 'mark' them (not for a decent length of time at least). Not unless ammo was to be stored at -20 C

Radmac

201 posts

Radmac

WA, 201 posts

26 Feb 2012 4:04pm

The restriction sound like a good idea to me.

It will come in and legal shooters will adapt to it.

Its an Australian way of doing it. We are adaptable

log man

VIC

8289 posts

log man

VIC, 8289 posts

26 Feb 2012 11:09pm

japie said...

log man said...

Yasee, the governments out to get us ,dig a hole and buy some baked beans.....FFS JAPIE this is ****

I can just hear you arguing the case for this:

And so JP you just opt out of having any intelligent conversation about how we want to control guns and ammo. You just retreat to some wacky position where the governments out to get you and somehow not being able to buy machine guns, 3 dozen rocket launchers and a couple of tanks is an encroachment on your human rights. GEEZ JP, get real.

cisco

QLD

12365 posts

cisco

QLD, 12365 posts

26 Feb 2012 10:56pm

log man said...
And so JP you just opt out of having any intelligent conversation about how we want to control guns and ammo. You just retreat to some wacky position where the governments out to get you and somehow not being able to buy machine guns, 3 dozen rocket launchers and a couple of tanks is an encroachment on your human rights. GEEZ JP, get real.

You do this all the time loggy. You overstate whatever anybody else says, take it to the extreme, put words in others' mouths, then revert to the lowest form of wit, ridicule.

You are the one who opts out of intelligent conversation and who needs to get real and get out of this brain washed political correct mind set you have.

Failing that emigrate to Cuba where they only have one brand of toothpaste so you won't get confused.

lachlan3556

VIC

1066 posts

lachlan3556

VIC, 1066 posts

27 Feb 2012 12:20am

Radmac said...

The restriction sound like a good idea to me.

It will come in and legal shooters will adapt to it.

Its an Australian way of doing it. We are adaptable

Adaptable...a few other terms/phrases come to mind as well

landyacht

5921 posts

landyacht

WA, 5921 posts

26 Feb 2012 9:22pm

rod_bunny said...
Guns have multiple uses.... I'll grant you that the main use is for killing things, however,

I dont know if this was your post rod-bunny, but please somebody elighten me on the other uses

pierrec45

NSW

2005 posts

pierrec45

NSW, 2005 posts

27 Feb 2012 12:24am

TrevNewman said...
I agree. Punish hard the losers that break the existing laws.

And how do you think this fine idea is going in the US, which has the largest prison population in the world ?
It appears that the harsh 3-strike rule has not made a dent in crime.

sn

2775 posts

WA, 2775 posts

26 Feb 2012 9:30pm

landyacht said...

rod_bunny said...
Guns have multiple uses.... I'll grant you that the main use is for killing things, however,

I dont know if this was your post rod-bunny, but please somebody elighten me on the other uses

lately, mine have mostly been rather noisy and pricey paper punches

(mostly)

nailed a double bonus at the rifle range recently- fox sneaking up on a feral cat, made up for the lousy score earlier in the day.

stephen

sn

2775 posts

WA, 2775 posts

26 Feb 2012 9:38pm

pierrec45 said...

TrevNewman said...
I agree. Punish hard the losers that break the existing laws.

And how do you think this fine idea is going in the US, which has the largest prison population in the world ?
It appears that the harsh 3-strike rule has not made a dent in crime.

and I suppose you think letting all those crims out of jail would make the streets safer and reduce the crime rate?

they are in jail because they are crims, not for being good citizens.

stephen

Carantoc

7269 posts

Carantoc

WA, 7269 posts

26 Feb 2012 9:48pm

Sod it, I'll change my mind and agree with everyone else :

Ban Jetskis
Require bicycle riders to have a licence to ride
Allow anyone to purchase any type of munitions they so wish

Legalise all drugs
Criminalise global drug companies that manufacture medicines

Bring down all Governments and institutions because they restrict my freedoms
Lock anyone up for life the instant they sneeze out of line

Don't vote for Abbott because he is too right wing
Wait for some faceless faction bosses to decide who is the Prime Minister of Australia for next week

oh - and get up Mark_Australia for having 'extreme' views

dinsdale

1227 posts

dinsdale

WA, 1227 posts

26 Feb 2012 10:23pm

Canada has a considerably higher gun:population ratio than the US. There's some other reason why the seppos like shooting each other.

Whether you like guns or not, you should be against further unnecessary gummint intrusion into law abiding citizens' lives.

pierrec45

NSW

2005 posts

pierrec45

NSW, 2005 posts

27 Feb 2012 4:38am

sn said...

pierrec45 said...

TrevNewman said...
I agree. Punish hard the losers that break the existing laws.

And how do you think this fine idea is going in the US, which has the largest prison population in the world ?
It appears that the harsh 3-strike rule has not made a dent in crime.

and I suppose you think letting all those crims out of jail would make the streets safer and reduce the crime rate?

they are in jail because they are crims, not for being good citizens.

You suppose wrong, no I don't think that. Don't know where you got that from.

But the idea, as in the US, that stiffer jail sentences (from what they are at the time those laws are enacted) deter crime has not worked there, as purported originally by politicians. It keeps those particular crims longer out of GP, at the cost of much increased taxes, that's all.

We'll see if the recent NZ equivalent fares any better over time...

pierrec45

NSW

2005 posts

pierrec45

NSW, 2005 posts

27 Feb 2012 4:44am

dinsdale said...

Canada has a considerably higher gun:population ratio than the US.

Find that hard to believe, i.e. www.reuters.com/article/us-world-firearms/u-s-most-armed-country-with-90-guns-per-100-people-idUSL2834893820070828

Perhaps it's the distinction between registered and not registered.
There was a show in the US 1 month ago showing how easy it is to buy in some states - no reason, no paperwork. Just walk in. The conclusion was that there are wayyyyy more undeclared guns than declared.
All for the purpose of defending themselves in case of a home invasion, of course.
And none of them were Waco wackos, of course.

lachlan3556

VIC

1066 posts

lachlan3556

VIC, 1066 posts

27 Feb 2012 10:11am

Again, its a piece of legislation that the criminals will ignore (like the rest) and seriously handicaps many law-abiding people. Im arguing that the government should consult and think up some stratagies that might actually have an effect, instead of going for the cheap shot and just be looking like they're helping.

I think comparing the US to here is a bit of a stretch, much greater organised crime and some gun laws that even I'd say were too lax. Canada is the better comparison.

lachlan3556

VIC

1066 posts

lachlan3556

VIC, 1066 posts

27 Feb 2012 10:21am

landyacht said...

rod_bunny said...
Guns have multiple uses.... I'll grant you that the main use is for killing things, however,

I dont know if this was your post rod-bunny, but please somebody elighten me on the other uses

There are different types of pistol, rifle and shotgun target competition at regional, state, national and international levels (ie: Local Field and Game weekend shoots, all the way to the Olympics or Commonwealth Games), as well as all the hunting that takes place every day of every year in this country. It appears to me that most shooters are target shooters currently.

Yes, there are only a couple of (currently legal) reasons to own firearms but a lot of things are no different.

A: You spent $30,000+ on your car
B: Yep!
A: So whats it do?
B: Oh you know the usual, I drive it around and pick stuff up with it
A: You just spent $30,000+....and thats all it does???

Im sure you'll agree that most things are just tools for a chosen way of life, we don't actually need much at all to survive (ie: food, water, air, a place to sit, sometimes clothing)

rod_bunny

1089 posts

rod_bunny

WA, 1089 posts

27 Feb 2012 9:27am

landyacht said...

rod_bunny said...
Guns have multiple uses.... I'll grant you that the main use is for killing things, however,

I dont know if this was your post rod-bunny, but please somebody elighten me on the other uses

Yep was my post... 2 other guys answered for me, but Target shooting (Competitive) and Collecting (Antiques) spring to mind. I wondered if there was a list somewhere on the www and found www.gunlaws.com/noble.htm

The list they have is mostly related to protection (which is still based on the guns ability to kill/maim things or the threat that goes with it)

To save people the time and hassle of click on the link, I'll quote my relevent bits

GETTING TO A GUN-FREE WORLD
It's actually quite easy to imagine a gun free world, because we've been there -- Ghengis Khan, Attilla the Hun, Julius Caeser -- that's what a gun-free world looks like. They wiped out entire cities, burned them to the ground, killed, raped, pillaged, without the guns.

So I think what we're really saying is, we want a world without guns, in an era of prosperity, abundance, harmony and enduring peace. To get there, we must be a race of people without the Four Horsemen of Human Havoc -- angry, hungry, stupid and wicked.

And that my friends, is the enduring problem.

Guns and violence are separate, even unrelated concepts. Violence happens just fine thank you without guns. Humanity's propensity for attack and assault is what requires the use of force for protection and defense. Legitimate protection and defense -- whether privately or by organized policing forces -- deserve the best tools possible. Until the human race changes, we can't get to a weapon-free world, because the good need them against the wicked.

PS Although I have owned firearms and shot competivily (Neither of which I do now) I'm not pro gun. I'm anti ill thought out knee-jerk laws that patch previous ill thought out knee-jerk laws that do nothing to target the actual problem.

log man

VIC

8289 posts

log man

VIC, 8289 posts

27 Feb 2012 4:12pm

Rod, so why isn't your proposal "knee Jerk" that is, do you really think society is in danger of being raped,burnt,murdered etc by these marauding forces? And if this is a possibility can you tell me where in Australia this has happened, after all I don't know anyone with a gun, so I'm assuming there are vast suburbs of defenceless cowering people just waiting for the "four horsemen" to come a knockin.

sn

2775 posts

WA, 2775 posts

27 Feb 2012 5:58pm

Hey Loggy- I'm not so sure those suburbs are undefended anymore!- I just did a google asking for just how many firearms are in the country.

According to this mob www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia we have 764518 licensed firearm owners (not including military or police),
2675785 licensed firearms,
and an estimated stash of 550000 to 6 million unlicensed firearms

I always thought there would be a few kicking around- but 1/2 a million is pretty crook- let alone 6 million!

I have no idea how good the figures are from this mob- or at what date they were compliled. but most of the sources for figures like this must come from licensing authorities.

stephen

kiteboy dave

QLD

6525 posts

kiteboy dave

QLD, 6525 posts

27 Feb 2012 8:14pm

lachlan3556 said...

Oh, and as a molecular microbiologist I have to say you can't just spray DNA onto things to 'mark' them (not for a decent length of time at least). Not unless ammo was to be stored at -20 C

Right you are, I was thinking of this
www.geek.com/geek-cetera/mcdonalds-starts-using-dna-spray-to-curb-theft-in-australia-1460469/
but it only lasts 2 weeks.

Maybe modified data-dots then?

log man

VIC

8289 posts

log man

VIC, 8289 posts

27 Feb 2012 9:44pm

So that's it then....Licensed firearm owners have to sign for their ammo and they can only buy ammo that they have a license to get......well whoop de fricken do... sign the piece of paper and go and do your shopping. That's it, stop yer whinging or you'll go to bed without yer dinner.

lachlan3556

VIC

1066 posts

lachlan3556

VIC, 1066 posts

27 Feb 2012 10:02pm

kiteboy dave said...

Right you are, I was thinking of this
www.geek.com/geek-cetera/mcdonalds-starts-using-dna-spray-to-curb-theft-in-australia-1460469/
but it only lasts 2 weeks.

Maybe modified data-dots then?

Cool, still a good idea though.

Maybe the ID dots would work, worth a decent look at. At least then you could narrow the search down to which shop sold the ammo, which would then allow the police to do a proper investigation. Might also show how much ammo gets imported illegally, or how much has been stockpiled.

Consultation is the key to this issue, do some research and ask some questions. Don't just go with the first and easiest idea that pops into your head.

lachlan3556

VIC

1066 posts

lachlan3556

VIC, 1066 posts

27 Feb 2012 10:09pm

log man said...

So that's it then....Licensed firearm owners have to sign for their ammo and they can only buy ammo that they have a license to get......well whoop de fricken do... sign the piece of paper and go and do your shopping. That's it, stop yer whinging or you'll go to bed without yer dinner.

What if your buying ammunition for a firearm you've borrowed? Or buying ammunition for friends who don't live near a store, or their local store is out of stock? Just a couple situations that are quite common in this spread out country... Unfortunately, I think you've missed all the issues with this legislation, most of which have been eluded to in this thread.

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