Evolution is true, why your uncle was a monkey.

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barn
barn
WA
2960 posts
WA, 2960 posts
11 Jul 2011 11:37am
Disclaimer: This thread discusses the truth of evolution, and the failed scientific thesis known as Intelligent Design. All copy pastes are in quote boxes

Solving the Evolution.

First it's best to explain what the theory of evolution is, as it's never taught in school and it's very common for the facts to get muddled. Here it is, in it's simplest form.

Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.


That is to say, once you have replicator that can replicate itself, with enough accuracy to maintain information, with each copy being identical except for possible minor 'mutations' you will have the beginnings of the process of evolution.

Once the replication starts, pretty soon there will be competition for resources. This competition, selects the less competitive copies for deletion. And the successful copies continue to replicate. These basic laws of selection will produce ever increasing favorable variations.

This is the Theory of Evolution. The simplest explanation for the complexity of life ever developed. So simple it took a genius his whole life to work it out.

When Darwin proposed it 150 years ago it would still have been considered a Hypothesis, but since then enough discoveries have lifted it to the status of 'Theory'

When somebody says, "Evolution is just a Theory", they are using a different meaning of the word to when a Biologist says the "Theory of evolution"

From the Oxford English Dictionary;

Theory, Sense 1: A scheme or system of ideas or statements held as an explanation or account of a group of facts or phenomena; a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment, and is propounded or accepted as accounting for the known facts; a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observation.

Theory, Sense 2: A hypothesis proposed as an explanation; hence, a mere hypothesis, speculation, conjecture; an idea or set of ideas about something; an individual view or notion.



It is the first meaning that a Biologist uses when describing the Theory of Evolution. It is the first meaning when a Chemist describes Atomic Theory of the elements. Astronomers use it in the 'Heliocentric Theory'. A physicist is being true to the first definition when he describes the 'Theory of Gravity'. These are as close as science comes to fact. For all intensive purposes Scientific Theories are facts. They will never be disproved.

The second meaning is what the Layman uses when saying, "Evolution is just a Theory". They are failing to understand the different meanings of the word.


The reasons why there are no Proofs in science, is because strictly, only pure mathematics can hold anything as fact. The mathematical equivalent of a scientific theory is a Theorem. Pythagorus's Theorem, for example started as conjecture, and has since been proved many times. It could be disproved instantly, if somebody found a triangle that broke the rules. Facts are serious business, and Mathematicians insist science is not allowed to use them.

But, whatever nerds, it is a fact that the sun is the centre of the solar system (heliocentric theory) just like it is a fact that we have all evolved from a common ancestor (theory of evolution)



Intelligent Design..

Intelligent design is a Thesis; it claims that evolution by natural selection is insufficient to explain the complexity of life we see around us. For example, "The human eye is far to complex to have come about by natural selection, it therefore must have been designed by an intelligent designer. You will hear common catch phrases like 'Irreducible complexity', where it is claimed an organ or trait cannot be evolved from a more simple origin.

It has a few variations, but a major one is Evolution by Design, where it accepts minor evolution happens, but attributes the hard stuff to a designer.

It's common metaphor goes like this, "if you find a watch in the desert, you would assume it was designed by an intelligent watchmaker, ergo, everything complicated requires a designer"


The Process of Evolution


Evolution requires a replicator, and this replicator is the DNA molecule. A DNA molecule is the mechanism that transmits its own information from one generation to the next. It does this by arranging itself into a Double Helix. This Double Helix will split down the middle, and form two halves, which then builds itself up again to complete a new double helix. A perfect copy, unless there are mutations, which change the information code. These can be good changes, neutral changes, or bad changes.

The larger the mutation, the more chance it will be non beneficial. This is a slow process.

In a competitive environment, DNA must protect itself. So DNA replicators that develop protective shells survive better than ones that don't. The Cell wall has just evolved. We now have Genetic information, surrounded by a protective shell, which can reproduce itself. Good start!. The rest is a runaway process of natural selection, which following simple rules, is responsible for all the life on earth. This is a slow and very wasteful process. But that's OK because the earth is 4.6 billion years old.

Why it is the only explanation
Evolution by natural selection is a simple idea, requiring only natural processes. It is the only natural process that can explain the complexity of life on earth. Once it starts, it needs no helping hand from any intelligent process.

The good thing about evolution is it is easy to disprove. A good Theory is easily falsified. A single fossil in the wrong spot, or an organ found to be too complex would go along way to doing this. A fossilized rabbit in the pre Cambrian is a famous pun on what would be needed to disprove evolution.

Intelligent Design, meanwhile, requires a higher intelligence to explain the same problem. Any being, powerful and intelligent enough to do this would be even more complex than the complexity it's brought in to solve! This is an argument of infinite regress.

Who designed the designer? Who designed the designer's designer? Ad infinitum.



Evolution is a fact, it works without the need for any intelligent designer. It is a fact that we are all related to chimps, frogs and potatoes. It is a fact that Whales once walked on land, and it is a fact that the whale's closest relative is the Hippo.

Time permitting, (I can type like the wind) I will follow up with some of my favorite proofs.

I (and maybe others) will be happy to answer any questions, no question is too daft. And no question is to difficult.
barn
barn
WA
2960 posts
WA, 2960 posts
11 Jul 2011 11:51am
Mondays Proof. Edited*


The recurrent laryngeal nerve is a proof of evolution that shows it occurs without any foresight. There are numerous blunders left as evidence of our gradual modification from simpler organisms. It shows that evolution is an unintelligent process.

The recurrent laryngeal nerve is a nerve that controls our larynx (voice box). It's not far from the brain. The best route for this nerve would be a direct route. This does not happen. The nerve takes a detour, as it exits the brain, the nerve travels down the neck, past its destination, and continues down to the heart, where it loops around an artery, and then proceeds back up the neck to the larynx. In humans this detour is a few feet. In Giraffes this detour is amazing, but in sauropods, the detour is ridiculous.

The reason for this detour is because all tetrapod's evolved from fish. In fish there is no neck, so the path from the brain to it destination is a direct route. But everything gets tangled when you grow a neck. It is impossible for an animal to 'regrow' the nerve to avoid the tangled artery, so we all live with it. To fix this would be a modification that cannot be done in small steps, therefore it is an unbreakable rule that all tetrapods have this mixup. And it's bad engineering.

Here is the nerve detour, shown in a human.



When it becomes advantageous to grow an even longer neck, the nerve must extend.


We can see below the reasons why the nerve gets tangled, everything is straight forward in our ancestors, the fish.



There are many other costs that a giraffe pays by becoming so tall, including the neck vertebrates, and are well covered in the Giraffe episode of the BBC docco, Inside Natures Giants, available on youtube. The following is a scene showin the dissection of the laryngeal nerve in a baby giraffe..
laurie
laurie
NSW
3889 posts
NSW, 3889 posts
11 Jul 2011 1:52pm

Having had "intelligent design" thrust upon me by a person previously, yes, this is a religous topic.

Please keep you heads cool guys .. Seabreeze is for pain relief, not creating arguments.
barn
barn
WA
2960 posts
WA, 2960 posts
11 Jul 2011 12:00pm
OK then, Ignore intelligent design..


Evolution is not a religious topic, it's pure science. And it's true.
CMC
CMC
QLD
3954 posts
CMC CMC
QLD, 3954 posts
11 Jul 2011 2:10pm
Wow, I thought explaining how fins worked in bottom turns was clever
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
11 Jul 2011 12:19pm
barn said...

OK then, Ignore intelligent design..


Evolution is not a religious topic, it's pure science. And it's true.


Who cares
Cassa
Cassa
WA
1305 posts
WA, 1305 posts
11 Jul 2011 12:21pm
pppfffftttt
I'd rather record my next fart and replay it over ,and over than read that
theDoctor
theDoctor
NSW
5786 posts
NSW, 5786 posts
11 Jul 2011 2:26pm
this stuff is as retarded as the climate debate

why must there only be two choices...?

either you must believe in evolution

or you must believe in intelligent design

both are treated as religions by their associated whack jobs
barn
barn
WA
2960 posts
WA, 2960 posts
11 Jul 2011 12:45pm
Geez not very popular, how bout those immigrants taking our jobs?

Evolution is us, you're all red thumbing yourselves. lol.

doggie said...


Who cares


It's our history. If you don't care about how we got here then, I dunno..

Have you ever wondered why Human females are the only mammals to develop ( . ) . ) before pregnancy? is that an interesting question?


theDoctor said...

this stuff is as retarded as the climate debate

why must there only be two choices...?

either you must believe in evolution

or you must believe in intelligent design

both are treated as religions by their associated whack jobs


HAha yes and Gravity is a religion as well. Did you read anything I wrote, I didn't copy paste.. Doc, what is the other alternative? Aliens? Seeing as though aliens are complex, and the only process that can produce complexity is evolution.. Then Aliens must also have evolved..

Unless you have another explanation, I would like to hear it?
FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
11 Jul 2011 2:51pm
Did anyone in Sydney go Kitesurfing/Windsurfing yesterday?
How was is?

I chickened out right at the last minute... cold and the wind looked a little all over the place.
choco
choco
SA
4181 posts
SA, 4181 posts
11 Jul 2011 2:39pm
If we evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys around?
evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
11 Jul 2011 3:14pm
choco said...

I we evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys around?


If kitesurfing evolved from windsurfing why are there still windsurfers still around?

busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
11 Jul 2011 1:15pm
" FAIL of the Century Next person"!
Straight to the gift shop for half twixes.



log man
log man
VIC
8289 posts
VIC, 8289 posts
11 Jul 2011 3:18pm
I can't believe that response, open your minds
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
11 Jul 2011 1:20pm
log man said...

I can't believe that response, open your minds


no...........
Al Planet
Al Planet
TAS
1548 posts
TAS, 1548 posts
11 Jul 2011 3:32pm
Big fan of the whole evolution thing. Its very cool how a theory developed by observation so many years ago still dominates the life sciences. Physics is a whole different ball game and it seems amazing that something that seems as simple as gravity could be so hard to explain and really that's nothing compared to the other problems that face your modern day physicist. Even when he/she does work something out its almost impossible to explain in any simple terms. This means that for many of us its easier to adopt beliefs that mostly fit with the world we observe and not think to much about the detail. While the Devil may not be in the detail, concepts of a multi-verse or dark matter seem even stranger than the traditional alternatives.

Fortunately the strangeness of the universe doesn't seem to affect the here and now to much. I was out on the water yesterday and it was cold...so cold that the joy of chasing down waves was being tempered by the physical discomfort of the wind chill. Now this I do understand....though if I am related to the fishes surely 8C air temperatures and 10 C water temperatures shouldnt bother me at all..damn all this evolution how about some devolution....
barn
barn
WA
2960 posts
WA, 2960 posts
11 Jul 2011 1:34pm
Finally a genuine question! It was all worth it
choco said...

I we evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys around?


It's a good question. The reason is because there is still room for monkeys. Evolution is not directed at building us.

A similar argument would be if we evolved from fish, why are there still fish?. There is nothing wrong with being a fish, they are very successful.

This is called speciation, where a species and it's gene pool becomes separated, and over time, each group go down different evolutionary paths.

So, we did not evolve from todays monkeys, we share a common ancestor with monkeys. Monkeys went to live in the trees, and we went to live on the savannah.

Further explanation on this common misconception. (will need to fix the link)
http://www.you*tube.com/watch?v=EBdbS-FgyO4
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
11 Jul 2011 1:37pm
barn said...

Finally a genuine question! It was all worth it
choco said...

I we evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys around?




Sarcasm?
GalahOnTheBay
GalahOnTheBay
NSW
4188 posts
NSW, 4188 posts
11 Jul 2011 3:37pm
busterwa said...




Isn't that the wrong way round? lol
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
11 Jul 2011 1:41pm
GalahOnTheBay said...

busterwa said...




Isn't that the wrong way round? lol


Just take away the kite and you are done
japie
japie
NSW
7146 posts
NSW, 7146 posts
11 Jul 2011 6:44pm
If you are interested in the theory of evolution, don't bother Doggie no pictures or boobs and some quite long words, Robin Dunbar's Grooming Gossip and the Evolution of language is a must read.
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
11 Jul 2011 4:54pm
japie said...

If you are interested in the theory of evolution, don't bother Doggie no pictures or boobs and some quite long words, Robin Dunbar's Grooming Gossip and the Evolution of language is a must read.


Bugger that then (.).)
choco
choco
SA
4181 posts
SA, 4181 posts
11 Jul 2011 6:56pm
barn said...

Finally a genuine question! It was all worth it
choco said...

I we evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys around?


It's a good question. The reason is because there is still room for monkeys. Evolution is not directed at building us.

A similar argument would be if we evolved from fish, why are there still fish?. There is nothing wrong with being a fish, they are very successful.

This is called speciation, where a species and it's gene pool becomes separated, and over time, each group go down different evolutionary paths.

So, we did not evolve from todays monkeys, we share a common ancestor with monkeys. Monkeys went to live in the trees, and we went to live on the savannah.

Further explanation on this common misconception. (will need to fix the link)
http://www.you*tube.com/watch?v=EBdbS-FgyO4


corrected my bad spelling "If" ... not "I"

barn
barn
WA
2960 posts
WA, 2960 posts
11 Jul 2011 6:18pm
I'm pretty impressed with the overwhelming dislike for this subject.

I would like to know the reasons why there has been such an angry response?. I only started it because there were some misconceptions in a recent unrelated thread. It seems the guys who know least about evolution, are the ones who dislike it the most. And judging by the red thumbs, thats everyone!.

It's an interesting reflection on the mindset of this forum. Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution. How can people be so hostile towards a fact of science?

Is banging on about Haarp doomsday devices more interesting to the average Australian?

Can anybody who thinks this is such a sh1t subject explain why?


Little Jon
Little Jon
NSW
2115 posts
NSW, 2115 posts
11 Jul 2011 9:54pm
Cassa said...

pppfffftttt
I'd rather record my next fart and replay it over ,and over than read that


Already got mine and use it as ringtone
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15100 posts
WA, 15100 posts
11 Jul 2011 7:57pm
barn said...

I'm pretty impressed with the overwhelming dislike for this subject.

I would like to know the reasons why there has been such an angry response?. I only started it because there were some misconceptions in a recent unrelated thread. It seems the guys who know least about evolution, are the ones who dislike it the most. And judging by the red thumbs, thats everyone!.

It's an interesting reflection on the mindset of this forum. Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution. How can people be so hostile towards a fact of science?

Is banging on about Haarp doomsday devices more interesting to the average Australian?

Can anybody who thinks this is such a sh1t subject explain why?



I think evolution favors a mix of intellects.

Oh sorry, I am not sure who wrote that, but anyway...

This sort of thing is a touchy subject as people are free to believe in evolution or not, the same as they are able to believe in religion as they please.

Being a believer in evolution, I too could argue that intelligent design is a plausible theory. There is no certain proof of either, and if there is a god or gods, what would stop it/he/she/Klang from having fun and designing a puzzle for humans to ponder?

As for the red thumbs, they are just like opinion polls, online product reviews, and those polls where local councils choose to poll individuals that are likely to agree with them. Often its the people that are strongly against something that bother to reply. In this case you are probably attracting only the people that disagree that feel strongly about it.

What does it matter? You have formulated your beliefs on what you want. Unless they are extremist views, does it matter?

I like red thumbs! Who needs to agree on everything?
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15100 posts
WA, 15100 posts
11 Jul 2011 8:00pm
GalahOnTheBay said...

busterwa said...




Isn't that the wrong way round? lol


Yeah, stupid monkey has the leading edge the wrong way. Good catch.

Mobydisc
Mobydisc
NSW
9029 posts
NSW, 9029 posts
11 Jul 2011 10:05pm
barn said...



Can anybody who thinks this is such a sh1t subject explain why?





Poor bunny rabbit.



About evolution. Its an interesting theory but perhaps its a little to early to know if the theory fits the evidence.

Perhaps devolution is happening with humanity at the bottom of the heap with us devolving rapidly.






Ados
Ados
WA
421 posts
WA, 421 posts
11 Jul 2011 8:24pm
Mobydisc said...

barn said...



Can anybody who thinks this is such a sh1t subject explain why?





Poor bunny rabbit.



About evolution. Its an interesting theory but perhaps its a little to early to know if the theory fits the evidence.

Perhaps devolution is happening with humanity at the bottom of the heap with us devolving rapidly.









Doesn't matter if you don't believe in evolution. Nature doesn't give a ****.
Trant
Trant
NSW
601 posts
NSW, 601 posts
11 Jul 2011 10:31pm
FormulaNova said...
What does it matter? You have formulated your beliefs on what you want. Unless they are extremist views, does it matter?


It matters less in Australia because we're a secularist country, but it's important to remember that

Evolution is from a scientific perspective
Intelligent Design/Creationism is from a religious perspective.

even if some people are religiously 'for' evolution and some people think Intelligent Design is 'science'. Personally I don't care which you believe (if either), so long as you understand the distinction.
In the US this is a real battleground for people trying to make the US a 'Christian' nation and not a secularist one.
Mobydisc
Mobydisc
NSW
9029 posts
NSW, 9029 posts
11 Jul 2011 10:33pm
In a way if evolution is for real then perhaps all those scientists who are worried about climate change should not be. If the Earth's climate signifcantly changes because we burn coal and oil to make our life easier, this will create opportunities for new species to take advantage of.

So new species will evolve to survive in the ecological places that have been vacated by other species we have killed off through eating, habitat destruction or climate change.

In the end evolution will work it all out so why not just keep making a complete mess of the place if that makes our life easier?


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