wave knave said...

'There is nothing to fear except the persistent refusal to find out the truth, the persistent refusal to analyze the causes of happenings.'

D.Thompson

Not only was he a world beating decathlete, he was wise too

"You’re obliged to pretend respect for people and institutions you think absurd. You live attached in a cowardly fashion to moral and social conventions you despise, condemn, and know lack all foundation. It is that permanent contradiction between your ideas and desires and all the dead formalities and vain pretences of your civilization which makes you sad, troubled, and unbalanced. In that intolerable conflict you lose all joy of life and all feeling of personality, because at every moment they suppress and restrain and check the free play of your powers. That’s the poisoned and mortal wound of the civilized world" - Mirbeau, Octave

the italians and greeks and chinese and vietnamese all assimilated, they adapted to "our culture" within a generation and added their own unique flavours to it. the sky didn't fall in on us.
what makes you think any other culture is different?

FlySurfer said...


@GypsyDrifter: How did the boat call 000?
Hello, hello, hello is this Australia? Please pick us up 120km NW of Christmas Island.

ello ello, I can say this only once...
we would like to come to your country...yes!

and now we have a Minister for Population...WTH?

i miss the old days where we just ignored the fact that they landed on Australian shore and then had a 50 mile hike to the nearest town. if they made it you knew they where hard workers.

poor relative said...

Your statement is racist

Rellie, that's the line most commonly used by those who are trying to establish their culture over the top of someone else's. If we don't accept it and try to maintain our own then we are called racists.
I don't accept that reasoning.
It's a matter of this. "We are happy with our culture and we don't want to live by yours."
That is not racist.

Essentially what you are saying is if your not anglo-saxon christian then you present as a threat to 'our' way of life - arent we multicultural?

Not at all.
I'm saying that if their culture has a history of creating conflict with the other cultures they live amongst then they should be seen as a threat.

What is this mystical Aussie way of life anyway and who defines it ?

Well there's part of the problem isn't it?
If we don't appreciate how great our way of life is here compared to the way of life that exists under the regimes of these other cultures, then we don't see any need to protect it do we.
Have a look at what we have got here. It's worth keeping. Don't chip away at the edges. Don't dilute it down.

Oh and don't forget Hitler was a christian.

Totally irrelevant really.
If Hitler was seeking approval for immigration I would definitely say no that. Same for Idi Armin and numerous other christian despots, or anyone like them.
But at this point in time they are not so they are irrelevant to the discussion.

Segregation breeds contempt and starts wars.

Segregation WITHIN A COUNTRY breeds contempt and starts wars. YES.
That's what half of these conflicts are all about.
But these are often solved by splitting off the different cultures into separate states or countries.
Isn't that what most many of these conflicts are seeking to do?
Separate Palestinian state?
Separate independent Chechnyan state?
Separate Tamil state?
Separate Kurdish state?
etc etc etc. The list is a long one.
I would NOT want to see Australia go that way in another 100 years or so.

I guess living in Australia and Ch7 news or today tonight being your main source of international affairs has its downsides.

Definitely NOT my main source of information. Channel 7 news?? Phfffff!

ABC /SBS news maybe.
Numerous excellent and in depth docos on ABC, SBS, National Geographic, Foxtel History channel, etc.
Also numerous articles on the analysis of these problems on the internet.
Have a look.

Problems in Sudan Darfur have nothing to do with culture,

While the underlying cause of the problems in the Sudan are probably not cultural, the cultural differences usually end up being the focal point of the eventual conflict and the fighting ends up being along that divide.
Thus the Sudan/Darfur conflict is now a northern arab muslim vs western non arab muslim conflict.
And mixed in with the non arab muslims is a significant african christian population which tends to make the actions by the predominantly arab muslim government more justifiable in their eyes.

Makes you wonder if the west had a stake in Sudaneese oil whether there would be more western intervention?

It probably would because a reliable oil supply is essential for world stability at the moment.
This is an accusation levelled at the US regarding it's actions in Iraq. It was said that they just wanted to take their oil.
However, when the Iraqi oil contracts were recently put up for auction, the US took none of them. That is ZERO (0) NONE of them. Sort of deflates that argument doesn't it?
(But I do think the Iraq invasion was TOTALLY wrong and I didn't support it, and still don't)


There is heaps of reliable information available on all this stuff on the internet.
You might like to look some of this up for yourself before you thumb away on the red thumbs tag.

What the heck. Thumb away first if you like but do yourself a favour and do a bit of research on it later.
Obviously, by the severe red thumbing I've got, most people don't agree with me.
That's you right and I don't mind. But I do hope that the thumbing is done from an informed point of view rather than just a warm fuzzy "lets be nice to everyone and invite them in" perspective.

I know some sites are biased but many are not and they provide a factual analysis of the situation
You can start here

www.globalpolitician.com

Which basically says;
"If we try to provide an analysis of conflicts around the world, two patterns emerge. One relates to ethnicity, and the other relates to religion. Religion still forms the basis of major conflicts worldwide as in Israel-Palestine, although in case of India-Pakistan and Russia-Chechnya, the religious roots of such conflicts tend to have a close association with Islamic separatism"

*******************
How about a few examples.

Some of the world's current "hot spots" which have as their base a significant component of religious intolerance are listed below:

Country and Main religious groups involved:

1. Afghanistan Extreme radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslim Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan.
2. Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic, Muslims
3. Cote d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christians
4. Cyprus Christians & Muslims
5. East Timor Christians & Muslims
6. Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims
7. Kashmir Hindus and Muslims 8. Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians, Muslims
9. Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway.
10. Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims
11. Middle East Jews, Muslims, &Christians
12. Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims 13. Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims
14. Philippines Christians & Muslims
15. Russia, Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims. The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Muslims had allegedly blown up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged.
16. Serbia, province of Vojvodina Serbian Orthodox & Roman Catholics
17. Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils
Additional conflicts
18. Sudan: Arab muslims & non arab muslims
19. Thailand: Pattani province: Buddists and Muslims
20. Bangladesh: Muslim-Hindu (Bengalis) and Buddists (Chakmas)
21. Tajikistan: intra-Islamic conflict

I don't see any evidence that Australians could manage these disputes better than everyone else.
When I see the way we get into ridiculous arguments about such trivial issues such as which is better, Windsurfing or kiting, Eagles or Dockers, Ford or Holden, blah blah ad infinitum squabble squabble bicker bicker, followed by abuse and insults, followed by {lock topic}, I hardly imagine that we would be a model of restrained reasoning regarding deep cultural disputes.
Maybe you think differently?
Happy Easter. (With apologies for those of different cultural beliefs that might find that salutation offensive)

stamp said...

pweedas i think you are missing the point that we don't actually have a deep rooted culture of our own, we are a multicultural society comprised of a completely mongrel mix of races.

you keep referring to this mythical "way of life" you need to defend to the death. i assume you are referring to the scraps of british culture some of us still cling to despite being recent arrivals ourselves. 200 odd years is nothing, our society and culture is still in its infancy and is constantly shaped by new migrants, wherever they are from. who are you to refuse someone entry on the basis of their beliefs? you are a recent arrival too.

That point I have not missed and I think I have mentioned that it is part of our problem.
Apparently I haven't put it very well, or perhaps it has got lost in all the blurb.
You are so VERY right when you say "we don't actually have a deep rooted culture of our own".
That is the reason why we can be so easilly changed by a small number of people who do have a deep rooted culture of their own and are prepared to "defend it to the death".
Our culture is an easy going "she'll be right mate" culture which takes the view that everything will take care of itself. It doesn't. If you want to hold on to something worthwhile you have to define boundaries and limits and then defend them.

I also agree with you when you say "our society and culture is still in its infancy and is constantly shaped by new migrants".
I have no problem with that and I think generally it is a good thing.
It is not a good thing if the incoming culture swamps the resident culture or if there is a well established history of that culture coming into conflict with the resident cultures.
You are also right when you say "you are a recent arrival too."
My family has been here about 100 years now, not very long compared to 40,000 years. If the original inhabitants had their way they might ask me to leave now, along with all the other "recent arrivals".
But you see, the point I am making is, they are too late. They no longer have that option. We are here and we are well established.
They should have made that decision 200 years ago and defended it. There are reasons why they didn't but it's pointless dragging that into this discussion here.
Do you see any similarities and lessons, because there are and they do apply here.

Maybe in another 100 years when the next generation are fighting over whether our women should have to wear a tent when in public, or whether we should be allowed to drink beer or not, or whether we should be allowed to eat in daylight hours during ramadan, or whether our ayatolla should be elected on bloodlines or not, (sounds silly doesn't it but that's always good for a civil war), we might then wonder what sort of stupidity gripped our generation which would make us throw our doors open to all and sundry when there were such clear indications that it had the high probability to create strife.

In another thousand years when we have managed to rise above all of this, (and I think by then we definitely will) then by all means, open the borders, throw away the visas and welcome everyone in. But it is abundantly clear from everything I see that we are not there yet.

Incidentally, I am somewhat encouraged by the fact that so far on this topic, it has not degenerated into insults and personal abuse, even though I have said things that many people obviously disagree with.
Thanks for that.

pweedas said...

Rellie, that's the line most commonly used by those who are trying to establish their culture over the top of someone else's. If we don't accept it and try to maintain our own then we are called racists.
I don't accept that reasoning.
It's a matter of this. "We are happy with our culture and we don't want to live by yours."
That is not racist.

I agree with you the only word abused and misconstrued more than Racism is Culture.
Racism as defined by dictionary.com as
1. A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. A policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. A hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

I interpret your previous statement as racist as you acceopt some cultures and say 'you'll be right' however you denounce other cultures on the basis of religion. You cannot judge an entire race of peoples on their religion - not all muslims are terrorists.

pweedas said...
I'm saying that if their culture has a history of creating conflict with the other cultures they live amongst then they should be seen as a threat.

show me a culture that doesnt have a history of violence.
anyway violence preceeds religion and will find expression wherever available.

pweedas said...

If we don't appreciate how great our way of life is here compared to the way of life that exists under the regimes of these other cultures, then we don't see any need to protect it do we.

Our life here is indeed fantastic out of all the countries i have lived in or visited - and there are many - australia is my fave. Thats why i am here.
why - well i'd say multi culturalism wandering into a food hall for instance - malay food, Pizza, Turkish kebabs, Thai food, japanese, Roast dinner, etc etc etc - imagine if we didnt have that.
What about china town in Melbourne all the amazing restaraunts there the interesting artifacts yum chai ?sp. the fascinating people.
What about your local 'overseas restaraunt' ever had a chat and built a relationship with those people.
Now thats Australia - the days of Indigenous people being considered nothing more that flower and fauna have gone. The all white migration policy - gone. We're multicultural get used to it embrace it it aint changing.
Thats progress.
Where people regardless whether they praise allah, seek enlightenment or like it in the bum are free to live the way they want in this country.
Thats Australia.

However wouldn't it be nice to see a country like Australia leading the way in multiculturalism and doing things unheard of in other western countries like celebrating all the main festivals of all the most popular religions - thats what they do in India.
My family are full of tales of Ramadan, Holi, Diwali, Eid ul Fitr, Lohri etc etc

pweedas said...
so they are irrelevant to the discussion.

In the context that you lauded christianity as being an untainted religion then yes the reference to hitlar was relevent.

pweedas said...


I would NOT want to see Australia go that way in another 100 years or so.

Why would it?
Its paranoid to believe it would.

[

pweedas said...
I'm saying that if their culture has a history of creating conflict with the other cultures they live amongst then they should be seen as a threat.

show me a culture that doesnt have a history of violence.
anyway violence preceeds religion and will find expression wherever available.

pweedas said...

Definitely NOT my main source of information. Channel 7 news?? Phfffff!

ABC /SBS news maybe.
Numerous excellent and in depth docos on ABC, SBS, National Geographic, Foxtel History channel, etc.
Also numerous articles on the analysis of these problems on the internet.
Have a look.

i apologise i was tounge in cheek and probably being rude
Myself - i am a book/doco addict.

pweedas said...

While the underlying cause of the problems in the Sudan are probably not cultural, the cultural differences usually end up being the focal point of the eventual conflict and the fighting ends up being along that divide.

It's easier for media to define the problems as purely religion - everyone understands.
Whilst religion plays a part its often not the primary cause.

pweedas said...
look some of this up for yourself before you thumb away on the red thumbs .

LOL i never ever have red thumbed - ask laurie if you don't believe.
I prefer to discuss

pweedas said...

Some of the world's current "hot spots" which have as their base a significant component of religious intolerance are listed below:
.....
I don't see any evidence that Australians could manage these disputes better than everyone else.

If you look into those conflicts a bit more you will find that there is a lot more to it than purely religion fighting religion.

...and i agree Happy easter

stamp said...

pweedas the IRA is/was a staunchly catholic terrorist group, the UDA a protestant one. much of the genocide in african nations is committed by christian tribes. as PR said hitler was a christian, as is dubya. the crusades were christian, and the inquisition. whole peoples in europe have been wiped out in the name of christ, often by some other fanatical splinter group of christians.

and "blend in with our population"? what does that mean exactly? we are a multicultural society, have been since we invaded and always will be.

A Christian by definition is someone who follows the teachings of Christ.
IE Love your neighbor, turn the other cheek etc.
Claiming to be a Christian doesn't make you one.
Believing in Christs teachings and doing them does make you a Christian.
By no stretch of the imagination was Hitler a Christian, nor are the bloody savages that claim that name in Africa or Ireland or anywhere else.

GypsyDrifter said...

I would love to know what the locals think of the boat people.

You just don't get it do you GD?
What about the kids that are being locked up?
What about the people escaping persecution torture etc being locked up?

Your passions should be about that if you "love people" as you claim.

poor relative said...


You just don't get it do you GD?
What about the kids that are being locked up?
What about the people escaping persecution torture etc being locked up?

Your passions should be about that if you "love people" as you claim.

PR...as I was so very lucky to be born in OZ...so that means I am in a country that I can say and think what I want.

Tell me why I have to think like you?

I don't, I am me these are my feelings and facts that I deal with...

OK, I'm going to explain the whole deal to y'all.

We're living in a world that was shaped after WWII. My grandparents fought on the side of the Allies and we won. BUT the group that really won was the group that brought the Allies together.

We made deals; America got the atom bomb, England retained it's financial power but lost military power, Israel was created out of Palestine, ... there was a complete global geopolitical reshape.

Fast forward 45 years and this group with the fall of Communism have consolidated their power and are now in the position to complete their goal; world domination.

(World domination is the oldest game, its in our genes, every species aspires to it and most free thinking individuals aspire to it.)

As history has shown so many times before, you need to dissolve borders, unite the tribes, one ring to rule them all.

So there you have it... no more borders, multiculturalism is here and it aint going away. Doesn't matter how much you protest, vote... sorry but we vote for the people who give us the message; the TV personality not the policy.

So just relax, sit back and watch the show, you can see it in the USA, England/Europe... Allied countries.
USA it's the Mexicans jumping over the barbed wire, in England it's the people running down the channel tunnel, in Australia it's the rickety boats.

Sydney's population went from 3,366,542 in 2001 to 4,399,722 in 2008... and most of them didn't come by boat.

Sydney was so good back in 2001 , light traffic, rents were cheap, you could go to a Woolies and not have to queue up for 20mins only to be served by somebody who can't speak English.

If you don't like it... well we have "terrorism laws" for the insubordinate.

Boat people want a better life; I guess we should be grateful we enjoy that better life... not too sure they're fleeing repression, those folks usually just run to the nearest boarder.

I want a better life; I think I'm going to gate crash one of James Packer's mansions... who's with me, we'll take cars?

The world is basically still " TRIBAL " and tribals do to each other nowadays,

what they have done to each other for eons, ....., fight for dominance.

The gladiator did it and the football crowd does it still. Religion does it so does

Business. The first settlers did it to the Aboriginies, the Squatter did it to the

workers. The Europeans did it to the English, the Vikings to the Englanders,

the Jewish to the Arabs. Nothing is new. I think maybe I have done it to

others, and I know it has been done to me. Family's do it to family's. The

Whalers did it to the Whales and the sealers to the seals. Fishermen still

practice it as with everyone else. In the END there will be one big doo,

and everyone is invited. That will DOO ME

poor relative said...

GypsyDrifter said...

Tell me why I have to think like you?

You don't have to think like me at all.
We live in a democracy

However if you come onto a public forum and create a contentious topic such as this expect your 'opinion' to be challenged.

You have said in the past couple of pages "i love people" "free the women and children" which completely contradicts the newspaper articles you post.

So how have you developed such a strong opinion?

PR ... For me it was a vent as I said front up in the 1st bit of my post...(you know free speech)
it was not meant to be contentious...but as it is...so be it!
The articles I place on this forum are for info only...not to stir the pot.
But again if they do, so be it.

And it is not so much the damaged people risking their lives to come to a new better country as it is..

""I would like the Government to be seen to be doing something about this issue.""

I want this Government (not as in Lib's or Labour) to grow a back bone.

GypsyDrifter said...
""I would like the Government to be seen to be doing something about this issue.""

I want this Government (not as in Lib's or Labour) to grow a back bone.

like what??