Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..SlowlyButSurely said.. Only the bundled As as far as I am concerned. Why would you want to grab all? Easier stow?Holoholo said.. I generally like to stow using all front lines unless I'm completely lit as it saves a step trying to sort out the leading edge.
As Holoholo said, I prefer to skip the step of gathering the tips. Especially since I ride the smaller sizes at 3m and under. I find it smoother to grab all the lines, pull until the tips reach my hand, then stroke the center lines into position and stow. Doing it that way I don't actually have to look at the parawing while I am packing and stowing. The center line collapse is nice when overpowered for sure but I definitely have to look down to gather the tips.
So, I just wanted to confirm that both styles of collapsing are still good to go and there's no new reason/design that presents a full A-line collapse.
Its a bit trickier to do it using all the A-lines because they skew out a lot and directly from the bar, plus you have the mixer in the way as well. The way the centre bit concertinas it is pretty easy to then grab the two outliers, I think you'll find you will probably migrate to the intended manner.
Select to expand quoteSlowlyButSurely said..
Review is great as per Gav's usual. but I reiterate again my opinion about the upwind capability of the PP which is not that far off from the PR. Whoever comes from BRM Kanaha's and Ka'a learnt the hard way. Basically riding parawing on front lines and sail at 40-45deg. I have seen people reaching unreal angles, even on the Ka'a
also the review does not mention the much improved construction of the PP. It was reported in multiple venues how battens stitching and trailing edge of the Pocket Rocket developed issues over time. The PP addresses both.
pull wise there is no comparison. The PP starts earlier than the PR. Once again it is a matter of habits and people coming from BRMs will have an edge. With the PP sail has to be placed deeper and lower in the window compared to the PR to take off.
i am the guy outside the chorus here, and probably it is due to the condition specifics I usually ride. The PR in sizes 4.3 and 5 turned very poor, it was really bad for quick retracts and redeploys and very prone to line tangles. The PP improves ALL these issues.
I didn't get the chance to ride the larger PP's but I would absolutely agree that they will really shine compared with the PR in 4.3/5.
Ultimately, Ozone is a bit of a victim of its own success, in that the PR performs extraordinarily well upwind - the PP is ahead of most parawings on the market on nearly every front, but it does point upwind a little less and is a little slower upwind. This is just physics, you can't have everything and that's one of the tradeoffs for stability. If the PR wasn't there for comparison, I don't think most of us would notice - it is obvious riding back to back that there is a difference, but in most conditions its not so stark that you would really notice it day to day.
Ref your comment @Holoholo, I ride with harness right at the front of the bar on the PR and the PP.
Select to expand quoteCH3MTR4IL5 said..SlowlyButSurely said..
Review is great as per Gav's usual. but I reiterate again my opinion about the upwind capability of the PP which is not that far off from the PR. Whoever comes from BRM Kanaha's and Ka'a learnt the hard way. Basically riding parawing on front lines and sail at 40-45deg. I have seen people reaching unreal angles, even on the Ka'a
also the review does not mention the much improved construction of the PP. It was reported in multiple venues how battens stitching and trailing edge of the Pocket Rocket developed issues over time. The PP addresses both.
pull wise there is no comparison. The PP starts earlier than the PR. Once again it is a matter of habits and people coming from BRMs will have an edge. With the PP sail has to be placed deeper and lower in the window compared to the PR to take off.
i am the guy outside the chorus here, and probably it is due to the condition specifics I usually ride. The PR in sizes 4.3 and 5 turned very poor, it was really bad for quick retracts and redeploys and very prone to line tangles. The PP improves ALL these issues.
I didn't get the chance to ride the larger PP's but I would absolutely agree that they will really shine compared with the PR in 4.3/5.
Ultimately, Ozone is a bit of a victim of its own success, in that the PR performs extraordinarily well upwind - the PP is ahead of most parawings on the market on nearly every front, but it does point upwind a little less and is a little slower upwind. This is just physics, you can't have everything and that's one of the tradeoffs for stability. If the PR wasn't there for comparison, I don't think most of us would notice - it is obvious riding back to back that there is a difference, but in most conditions its not so stark that you would really notice it day to day.
Ref your comment @Holoholo, I ride with harness right at the front of the bar on the PR and the PP.
Yeah spot on brother. Wasn't negating your take, which to be more clear, I thought was a really good one. I'm just allaying fears- saying my experience was I had initial concerns going upwind on the PP, but that they were gone with only a little added time. And yeah- I specifically jumped on the PP in the 4.3 as that size starts to really exaggerate the issues with the PR/line length, softness. The improvements made in the PP are hyper-highlighted. I've been on the PR in 3.0 and 3.6, shortened the lines 6" which helped immensely with my bridle complaints and still performs a treat. I'd love to have one of everything, but not having unlimited budget, I will happily stick with those for the time being. For me the perfect do everything PW would be: New smaller handle, 6" shorter bridles in new configuration/material with a PR canopy. I have to think that's on the way. If so I'm all over it.
Select to expand quoteHoloholo said..CH3MTR4IL5 said..SlowlyButSurely said..
Review is great as per Gav's usual. but I reiterate again my opinion about the upwind capability of the PP which is not that far off from the PR. Whoever comes from BRM Kanaha's and Ka'a learnt the hard way. Basically riding parawing on front lines and sail at 40-45deg. I have seen people reaching unreal angles, even on the Ka'a
also the review does not mention the much improved construction of the PP. It was reported in multiple venues how battens stitching and trailing edge of the Pocket Rocket developed issues over time. The PP addresses both.
pull wise there is no comparison. The PP starts earlier than the PR. Once again it is a matter of habits and people coming from BRMs will have an edge. With the PP sail has to be placed deeper and lower in the window compared to the PR to take off.
i am the guy outside the chorus here, and probably it is due to the condition specifics I usually ride. The PR in sizes 4.3 and 5 turned very poor, it was really bad for quick retracts and redeploys and very prone to line tangles. The PP improves ALL these issues.
I didn't get the chance to ride the larger PP's but I would absolutely agree that they will really shine compared with the PR in 4.3/5.
Ultimately, Ozone is a bit of a victim of its own success, in that the PR performs extraordinarily well upwind - the PP is ahead of most parawings on the market on nearly every front, but it does point upwind a little less and is a little slower upwind. This is just physics, you can't have everything and that's one of the tradeoffs for stability. If the PR wasn't there for comparison, I don't think most of us would notice - it is obvious riding back to back that there is a difference, but in most conditions its not so stark that you would really notice it day to day.
Ref your comment @Holoholo, I ride with harness right at the front of the bar on the PR and the PP.
Yeah spot on brother. Wasn't negating your take, which to be more clear, I thought was a really good one. I'm just allaying fears- saying my experience was I had initial concerns going upwind on the PP, but that they were gone with only a little added time. And yeah- I specifically jumped on the PP in the 4.3 as that size starts to really exaggerate the issues with the PR/line length, softness. The improvements made in the PP are hyper-highlighted. I've been on the PR in 3.0 and 3.6, shortened the lines 6" which helped immensely with my bridle complaints and still performs a treat. I'd love to have one of everything, but not having unlimited budget, I will happily stick with those for the time being. For me the perfect do everything PW would be: New smaller handle, 6" shorter bridles in new configuration/material with a PR canopy. I have to think that's on the way. If so I'm all over it.
I think you just described a Ka'a
Select to expand quoteeppo said..BWalnut said..SlowlyButSurely said.. Only the bundled As as far as I am concerned. Why would you want to grab all? Easier stow?Holoholo said.. I generally like to stow using all front lines unless I'm completely lit as it saves a step trying to sort out the leading edge.
As Holoholo said, I prefer to skip the step of gathering the tips. Especially since I ride the smaller sizes at 3m and under. I find it smoother to grab all the lines, pull until the tips reach my hand, then stroke the center lines into position and stow. Doing it that way I don't actually have to look at the parawing while I am packing and stowing. The center line collapse is nice when overpowered for sure but I definitely have to look down to gather the tips.
So, I just wanted to confirm that both styles of collapsing are still good to go and there's no new reason/design that presents a full A-line collapse.
Intrigued . so you grabbed all lines. pull until reach the tips . then stow . how are not not still having to collapse the battens into each either . they are still spread out at this point ?
oh yeh i've used a few ideas . didn't work well for the 4.3m to be honest - uneven when you cinch the lines in - lots of air in it - swings around crazily - i'm sure though if you do this lists of time it may work. I've settled with a full A line pull, run the lines through the hand again to take up line slack, bar out behind leading - squeeze / consatine using bar with all these lines into same hand holding para leading edge and bar. one spin roll up following length of bar and in . anyhow works for me - close to 100 percent redeploy - not quite yet but getting there
Got to try the 4.3 PP today in 18-25 knots today. 93kg, 6'6" x 17.5" x 76L board, KT 960 Atlas/155 Nomad tail. Started with a @5km DW then sessioned the spot at the bottom of the run the rest of the afternoon with a short stint on my 3m Triple Seven Skin when the wind picked up. In short, the PP worked really well not only for the DW run but also for the 1km UW/DW session. Loved the low end take off, high end handling, easy pack, and was pleasantly surprised by the upwind ability (my biggest concern). The more powered it is the better it rips upwind. Hooked in, it feels ultra stable and relaxing to fly with a definite centre of effort that tells you exactly how much sheeting you need to do (my 777 Skin has a slightly vague C of E despite being a very nice parawing as well). I did notice in lulls that my UW angle did drop off some, but it's far from a deal breaker. General speed was better than expected; I'm not sure I agree that it feels slow, but it has been a while since I've ridden a Pocket Rocket for comparison. It felt close to the 777 in speed, which I was happy with. Early impression, but a good one!
Did an up down winder for an hour before sending it DW today with JL on the 4.3 PP me on the 4.3 PR. We did a course tack, him behind me and yeh it doesn't track upwind as well as the PR as you'd expect. And trust me this guy can out point anyone. But it still took him well upwind just not as efficiently as i see him do it on the PR (he can get upwind almost twice as quickly as me per tack normally). Wind was very light early on and he woukd normally still easily get up as being goofy his natural stance is with the runners and i was forced to be in my toes to get up. He struggled more than usual. So obvious differences but none that took away from the session at all. And yeh she packs down far more easily although i have the PR pretty dialed anyway now. JL did say you don't feel as connected hauling ass upwind as the PR keeps hunting the edge so can really edge into it better. As i said obvious differences that physics dictates but nothing that would say one is better than the other. Just different. and yeh the lack of pubic hair for bridals is nice 
Tom was out on the new flow V2 today as well - looked good in air. Really balanced. No middle lines on the bar as per the PP and a clever bit of extra bridalling that is slack until the leading edge needs support when you pull on the brake lines - interesting version 2 and as i said looks good. Felt a little heavier than the ozone paras.
Select to expand quoteWindoc said..
Got to try the 4.3 PP today in 18-25 knots today. 93kg, 6'6" x 17.5" x 76L board, KT 960 Atlas/155 Nomad tail. Started with a @5km DW then sessioned the spot at the bottom of the run the rest of the afternoon with a short stint on my 3m Triple Seven Skin when the wind picked up. In short, the PP worked really well not only for the DW run but also for the 1km UW/DW session. Loved the low end take off, high end handling, easy pack, and was pleasantly surprised by the upwind ability (my biggest concern). The more powered it is the better it rips upwind. Hooked in, it feels ultra stable and relaxing to fly with a definite centre of effort that tells you exactly how much sheeting you need to do (my 777 Skin has a slightly vague C of E despite being a very nice parawing as well). I did notice in lulls that my UW angle did drop off some, but it's far from a deal breaker. General speed was better than expected; I'm not sure I agree that it feels slow, but it has been a while since I've ridden a Pocket Rocket for comparison. It felt close to the 777 in speed, which I was happy with. Early impression, but a good one!
I have a 777 4m and want to get a 3m. Would get another 777 or change? Haven't tried anything else so I really don't know if I am missing anything
Select to expand quotebolocom said..
I have a 777 4m and want to get a 3m. Would get another 777 or change? Haven't tried anything else so I really don't know if I am missing anything
Hi Diego, I also started with a 4m2 777 Skin and then quickly picked up a 3 for the afternoons in Gerroa. I decided to stay with the same brand/model rather than jump around. I prefer it that way.
Am considering a 2.4m2 as I've found I start getting really uncomfortable late afternoon when we get those super-charged 25-30 knot seabreezes, gusting to 35. To be fair, I would also be uncomfrotable with my 3m2 XPS Mk II in the same conditions.
The low end on the Skin is pretty good, I start getting out at around 15 (using a 108 L 7'2" x 22" Amos Sultan and 890 foil) with the 4. Then switch to the 3 once it's consistently over 20 knots. So I find myself at the very edge of the low end according to the 777 marketing materials - see below.
The 3 is a sensational wing. Like the 4, it behaves well, very easy to maneouver, e.g. Heineken gybes just trust it will be where you expect it to be when it comes around. All the coloured lines and bar and leading edge make launches easy. I've had no major tangles. Pulls well when it's in the range, no issues with deformation. High quality lines don't tangle, very high quality materials used everywhere plus the harness and it already has the bridle approach like the BRM and the PP has now adapted. I actually think the Skin was ahead of it's time and I see many brands now using the design aspects 777 already incorporated in the Skin.
I had to learn how to fly the Skin and in the beginning used too much depower and have learnt to improve the trimming of the wing. I always use a harness. As I get better at flying it, the range has improved dramatically. Was out with the 4 recently when locals were on 5m2 wings.
If you are curious about other brands, Craig now has an Ozone PowerPack as well as PocketRocket, an F-One Frigate as well as the older BRM. We need to do a test!PS: I see Jeremy is also on a 4m2 Skin.
Select to expand quoteArthurAlston said..bolocom said..
I have a 777 4m and want to get a 3m. Would get another 777 or change? Haven't tried anything else so I really don't know if I am missing anything
Hi Diego, I also started with a 4m2 777 Skin and then quickly picked up a 3 for the afternoons in Gerroa. I decided to stay with the same brand/model rather than jump around. I prefer it that way.
Am considering a 2.4m2 as I've found I start getting really uncomfortable late afternoon when we get those super-charged 25-30 knot seabreezes, gusting to 35. To be fair, I would also be uncomfrotable with my 3m2 XPS Mk II in the same conditions.
The low end on the Skin is pretty good, I start getting out at around 15 (using a 108 L 7'2" x 22" Amos Sultan and 890 foil) with the 4. Then switch to the 3 once it's consistently over 20 knots. So I find myself at the very edge of the low end according to the 777 marketing materials - see below.
The 3 is a sensational wing. Like the 4, it behaves well, very easy to maneouver, e.g. Heineken gybes just trust it will be where you expect it to be when it comes around. All the coloured lines and bar and leading edge make launches easy. I've had no major tangles. Pulls well when it's in the range, no issues with deformation. High quality lines don't tangle, very high quality materials used everywhere plus the harness and it already has the bridle approach like the BRM and the PP has now adapted. I actually think the Skin was ahead of it's time and I see many brands now using the design aspects 777 already incorporated in the Skin.
I had to learn how to fly the Skin and in the beginning used too much depower and have learnt to improve the trimming of the wing. I always use a harness. As I get better at flying it, the range has improved dramatically. Was out with the 4 recently when locals were on 5m2 wings.
If you are curious about other brands, Craig now has an Ozone PowerPack as well as PocketRocket, an F-One Frigate as well as the older BRM. We need to do a test!PS: I see Jeremy is also on a 4m2 Skin.
Thinking of getting a 5.4m 777 actually. Tom had one yesterday and got it out when the winds were weirdly super light on a 68l board and he's 85kg. wind then kicked in and he grabbed the 3.7 v2 flow and packed it away. Looks like a great para
ps would like to try the frigate
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Thinking of getting a 5.4m 777 actually. Tom had one yesterday and got it out when the winds were weirdly super light on a 68l board and he's 85kg. wind then kicked in and he grabbed the 3.7 v2 flow and packed it away. Looks like a great para
Eppo, just check the model that Tom has. AFAIK it is a UDW - I have the Skin. There was some initial unhappiness with regards to the UDW 5.4 m2 specifically. Related to what he described as an "overbraked" bridle setup that he addressed with a modification. I think it was only the 5.4m2 as others had no issues with the smaller UDW sizes. I've seen Tom describe the 5.4 UDW as a session saver.The Skin is also available in a 5.4 and a massive 7.3 m2 size. I would also like to try the 5.4 Skin. Based on my experience with the 4, I imagine it would be usable from around 12 knots till about 15/16 or something similar.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..Thinking of getting a 5.4m 777 actually. ps would like to try the frigate
I have 2.5/3.5/4.7 Frigates and a 777 PT Skin 5.4 should arrive this week. At your size the 4.7 Frigate would get you up in very light wind.
Select to expand quotehilly said..eppo said..Thinking of getting a 5.4m 777 actually. ps would like to try the frigate
I have 2.5/3.5/4.7 Frigates and a 777 PT Skin 5.4 should arrive this week. At your size the 4.7 Frigate would get you up in very light wind.
Hilly, I'll be interested in your take on the Skin 5.4 compared to the 4.7 Frigate once you've had the chance to use them both.
Select to expand quoteArthurAlston said..eppo said..
Thinking of getting a 5.4m 777 actually. Tom had one yesterday and got it out when the winds were weirdly super light on a 68l board and he's 85kg. wind then kicked in and he grabbed the 3.7 v2 flow and packed it away. Looks like a great para
Eppo, just check the model that Tom has. AFAIK it is a UDW - I have the Skin. There was some initial unhappiness with regards to the UDW 5.4 m2 specifically. Related to what he described as an "overbraked" bridle setup that he addressed with a modification. I think it was only the 5.4m2 as others had no issues with the smaller UDW sizes. I've seen Tom describe the 5.4 UDW as a session saver.The Skin is also available in a 5.4 and a massive 7.3 m2 size. I would also like to try the 5.4 Skin. Based on my experience with the 4, I imagine it would be usable from around 12 knots till about 15/16 or something similar.
Think it's the UDW model . so the skin is better hey? I know sven has one because of how light and easy to pack the bigger size it. I can't keep up with all the models lol
Yeh hilly keen on trying these frigates out for sure.
Problem is . I have convinced myself that below 15 i just paddle . but what's gonna happens when i have a para that counters that idea as well 
because guys can try and convince themselves but para easily is better in every way (like every way) - except if you run out of wind
Well got to try the 4.3 PP on the water - swapped over with my PR. I think most points have been covered above and concur. Which one do I prefer? Overall the PR for sure at this point in time but I do come from a foil kite background - i prefer the feel at the bar and much better wind range at its top third and beyond.
But want obvious grunty steady power that does pack down more easily - then the PP is the go.
Select to expand quotebolocom said..
I have a 777 4m and want to get a 3m. Would get another 777 or change? Haven't tried anything else so I really don't know if I am missing anything
I'd be happy with another 777 for sure. But the Ozone PP has some very cool features. Also excited to see the V2 PR if it incorporates some of these features while maintaining upwind angle/speed.
Select to expand quoteArthurAlston said..bolocom said..
I have a 777 4m and want to get a 3m. Would get another 777 or change? Haven't tried anything else so I really don't know if I am missing anything
Hi Diego, I also started with a 4m2 777 Skin and then quickly picked up a 3 for the afternoons in Gerroa. I decided to stay with the same brand/model rather than jump around. I prefer it that way.
Am considering a 2.4m2 as I've found I start getting really uncomfortable late afternoon when we get those super-charged 25-30 knot seabreezes, gusting to 35. To be fair, I would also be uncomfrotable with my 3m2 XPS Mk II in the same conditions.
The low end on the Skin is pretty good, I start getting out at around 15 (using a 108 L 7'2" x 22" Amos Sultan and 890 foil) with the 4. Then switch to the 3 once it's consistently over 20 knots. So I find myself at the very edge of the low end according to the 777 marketing materials - see below.
The 3 is a sensational wing. Like the 4, it behaves well, very easy to maneouver, e.g. Heineken gybes just trust it will be where you expect it to be when it comes around. All the coloured lines and bar and leading edge make launches easy. I've had no major tangles. Pulls well when it's in the range, no issues with deformation. High quality lines don't tangle, very high quality materials used everywhere plus the harness and it already has the bridle approach like the BRM and the PP has now adapted. I actually think the Skin was ahead of it's time and I see many brands now using the design aspects 777 already incorporated in the Skin.
I had to learn how to fly the Skin and in the beginning used too much depower and have learnt to improve the trimming of the wing. I always use a harness. As I get better at flying it, the range has improved dramatically. Was out with the 4 recently when locals were on 5m2 wings.
If you are curious about other brands, Craig now has an Ozone PowerPack as well as PocketRocket, an F-One Frigate as well as the older BRM. We need to do a test!PS: I see Jeremy is also on a 4m2 Skin.
Thanks, I will stay with 777 then. I am getting better with it but struggling at the low end, my larger foil is a 780 at the moment.need something larger but not sure what yet. Want to keep it simple but it's pretty hard with constant gear improvement and new toys
