Select to expand quoteWind Smurf said..Rango said..Wind Smurf said..
I don't know if a side fin will do anything to my board as its got a fairly deep mono concave in the tail from under the front strap right off the tail.
Its pretty sluggish to get the tail to release, been using 10cm Black projects with either a 25cm maui ultra fin or a 22cm onshore wave fin which seems to work better.
Any ideas ?????? Quite like the idea of the A.I fins as they dont seem as chunky as the Ezzy's.
A 25 /22 cm fin is huge for a multi fin ,I would personally use a 16 and 10s in a thruster but I'm 72kg.Reducing rear fin size will certainly help with tail release before messing around with fronts.
I'm 92kg and usually using 5.8m sail and quite a side rip too. I'd just go sideways with a 16cm fin, board is 113 litres too.
i am same weight.
I use 13 /14 sides and 15-17 centre on boards around 100-105 litre with 5.0-5.7m
smaller on 90-95 litre (with under 5m sail) If i was using a 25 then it would be single set up, same for 22.
For me personally 22 or 25 with sides would be way way way too much fin to turn on any of the boards i have had .
Select to expand quoteWind Smurf said..
I don't know if a side fin will do anything to my board as its got a fairly deep mono concave in the tail from under the front strap right off the tail.
Its pretty sluggish to get the tail to release, been using 10cm Black projects with either a 25cm maui ultra fin or a 22cm onshore wave fin which seems to work better.
Any ideas ?????? Quite like the idea of the A.I fins as they dont seem as chunky as the Ezzy's.
The single concave out the tail is a worry , it would atleast need to go to flat .Maybe it could do with some cosmetic surgery to flatten it out.
I've seen Scotty working on Starby prototypes at the beach sanding out the concave off the tail to improve release.
The Patrik website says to use 230 - 260 centre fin with side of between 8 - 12cm.
He actually recommends 22cm with 10cm for on shore wind and 120 + 155 for quad set up, I was trying to stay within the suggested range.
Anyway here's a few pix of the fin area. Its still got around 2mm concave behind the main fin.
Apparently Theres a few other boards out there with mono concave in the tail, the new JP magic wave, new starboard quad wave etc.
Also the single concave starts right behind the front strap too, Dont think you could really sand that out.
Thats Ok in front of the fins but should go to flat somewhere behind the rear fin.
Ever tried it as a rear biased quad, twin or even twin with trailer.But I still think that big rear fin is the main problem.
There is a good test report of different fin setups of that board on the patrik web site .
Thats only a 22cm fin with 10cm small area sides. With a 5.8m sail that is relatively small.
I have read the write up on fins but thats on a different board with a 70kg rider who's a semi professional.
I have spoken to someone else with the same board and he's been riding it as a quad and as a thruster with a 24cm main fin and 12cm sides. Might sand off the edges from behind the main fin to flatten that area a bit but don't want to mess up a fairly new board.
Think I'll order some A.I. 11cm 2 degree fins and have a play.
I did a test that I have seen Colin "Whippy" Dixon do with a hose to see how the tail releases and that seemed to release well so will play with the fins before I go hacking at the actual board. Its got a small amount of tail kick right behind the main fin too.
To right, I wouldnt do that to a new board either.
Contact k4 and see what they suggest
I dont think anywhere sells the Ai's in Australia anyway.
Select to expand quoteWind Smurf said..
Thats only a 22cm fin with 10cm small area sides. With a 5.8m sail that is relatively small.
I have read the write up on fins but thats on a different board with a 70kg rider who's a semi professional.
I have spoken to someone else with the same board and he's been riding it as a quad and as a thruster with a 24cm main fin and 12cm sides. Might sand off the edges from behind the main fin to flatten that area a bit but don't want to mess up a fairly new board.
Think I'll order some A.I. 11cm 2 degree fins and have a play.
I did a test that I have seen Colin "Whippy" Dixon do with a hose to see how the tail releases and that seemed to release well so will play with the fins before I go hacking at the actual board. Its got a small amount of tail kick right behind the main fin too.
what type of sailing are you doing?
Are you going down the line on powerful groundswell waves?
are you sailing cross on/onshore windswell that is quite mushy?
are you freeriding?
Usually sailing cross on, half decent waves.
Sometimes cross off.
This is my light wind wave board so using a bigger sail.
starting with the basics ,what is your mast track position?On a big board like that I would move it as far back as possible ,rear footstrap in back position and push the front fins toward back of box to tighten the cluster.
@windsmurf - sluggish to release - you mean top turn ? .... or planing ? if topturn - think your carrying too much fin area ....
Don't sand that board ! .... Ive got a bunch of s/c boards - and they all finish like your photo's ... its not the board imo
Ive used them BP fronts - super super stiff ... I think part your trouble is all fins too stiff maybe (and too much area) ... and BP's chunky at base (for the amount of vertical grip their giving) .. The fronts wouldn't tolerate any variation in flow much in turns .... I've found I like ....
Slightly flexier fronts (k4 Ezzy / incinerators) ...... with stiffer backs ..... (like Rider summises - might help fin neutrality in critical angles / moments - tis true .... imo ) ...... OR
Have a friend who rips hard - he is loving stiff fronts ( Toed ) kinda similar to yr BP's .... with flex backs (skorcher14)
Ive found problems if ......
ALL fins too stiff ........
or all fins too flexy .....
My feeling is either the fronts or backs ( stiffer ) have to do the job 'marshalling' water flow , keeping the other set of flexier fins kinda inline / not flexing too much , CONVERSELY ...... if all the fins 'give' too much there can be a latency in reaction when you suddenly push hard at a different angle/direction (leading to board suddenly straightlining on the rail for instance )
btw - I sail with a bunch of guys that sometimes make me look silly in certain conditions - guess what - they are ALL using Toed fins ... (but also a really good rider using a nano who rips hard - with straight symms - but he could probably sail a door and make it look good)
Select to expand quoteWind Smurf said..
Think I'll order some A.I. 11cm 2 degree fins and have a play.
oh no ,.... hope you don't get converted (like me , Ola , Bouke , Santi , shed dweller , masthead , Rango and many others who have done the homework ) and realise the lunacy of the 'push back' on here ... !
its just nuts what goes on with this in the windsurf industry ... Its like selling a Pyzel ghost with Ali express horrible fat draft cheap **** surf fins knocked up by someone half blind ...
Hi Wind Smurf,
i had the exact same Black Project front fins before I got the K4 Ezzys. I agree with Seabreazer that they are too stiff. I was initially worried that the would be too flexy. I've ridden cheap plastic fins in surfboards that just sucked, so I was really hoping they wouldn't be like that. But I was fully surprised. They felt so gripy. It was rad.
Hope they work for you
Thanks Gentlemen for the advice, those 10 BP fins worked really well on my 89 litre board, like really well so I'll put them back in there.
I'll for for 2 degree fins, possibly either the A.I. 11cm or 12cm Ezzy and see if that helps.
I've been watching a video by Tom Brendt, he says spread the fins out and put the mast track further forward which did seem to balance out the board a lot more. One problem is I can't have a wide stance as I've got knackered knees and usually have it at around 38cm from back of front strap to front screw of rear strap.
Usually I can sail ok but this board is just not happening at the moment, sure it might come good when I find a sweet spot for everything.
heavier people usually wear more stif fins and with a wider base...
very soft fins don't usually like it..
I think this old naish fin gets worse your board
.I would check your stance before buying new fins
Select to expand quoteWind Smurf said..
One problem is I can't have a wide stance as I've got knackered knees and usually have it at around 38cm from back of front strap to front screw of rear strap.
you mean 48cm ? .... My spread front screw (rear strap) to rear screw (front strap) - - is around 46.5cm ...
38cm sounds wrong (even if you measure from neoprene edge to edge ? )
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..
this for the 'neutral ' readers here that have stuck with the thread (despite all the petty BS )
For anybody interested in trying to get a bit more sideshore performance out of their boards .... K4's AI incinerator fronts are a really nice 'halfway' house in plan shape - between say Ezzy assymetrical flat inside fin (full surf style) , and stock fins .... I got hold of 3 sizes - 9's , 10's , 11's to pit against my go-to Ezzy 3 deg fins (for straight boxes ) , or the 1 deg Ezzy (maybe for flick/quatro customs / boxes with 1.5 deg toe built in) ....
They have a 70/30 foil .... Im finding them basically as good as the EZZY in full side off DTL .... they hold very similar (I take an AI front 1cm more than say Ezzy - as template is longer but narrower ) - so you have 9cm hold say vs 8cm Ezzy , VERY similar off the top ...... they're a bit stiffer than the Ezzy .... but also .... Im finding them really really fast upwind angles ..... So would be a really nice plug and play option for side on also ...
Anyways - they would be amazing option to have a few pairs in your bag - if your home spot suddenly goes surprise sideshore , or you travel somewhere with DTL conditions , and maybe then working in side-on as good / if not better than 'stock' fins ...
I like also the idea of narrower base (vs Ezzy) for quad use - little bit more free flowing area around cluster ... back leading edges of fronts mirroring the leading edges of rears a little more ( where ezzys are much more raked against Leading edge of rear ... )
sizing wise - I would say quads - upto around about 80kgs - 9cm fronts would be good (I'm 77kgs) - run with 15.5 rears g10
Not fully sure for heavier guys but
maybe 80-85 kgs - 10cm fronts ? ....
above 86-90kgs - maybe 11cm ??
above 90kgs maybe 12 's ?
depends what you've been running in your board / got used to size wise
They come in 1 or 2 deg .... so far - the 2 deg working really really good in straight boxes .... for DTL
Worth a try - and after 15 pages of forum punishment on the eyeballs - is about the most 'generalised' , grounded advice I can give for anyone to try .. they will run a bit more 'streamlined' I think than the chunky draft front stock fins that come with most cobra multifins (that to my eye just look horridly thick ) ...
Wow you use really big fins for your weight.
At 90kg I use 8cm and 16cm combo from 4.2m up to 6.2m. Why so big?
I still think those plastic fins are compensating for your tow in by flexing into a more parallel alignment at the tips.
My advice to neutral readers using a quad would be leave them parallel as designed by shapers with thousands of hours experience. I wouldn't take advice from someone who just measures a few boards he uses and presents mentally (via his posts) as quite an unstable, if your quad has a smidgeon of front fin tow in this may be a manufacturing defect, in that case maybe (only a maybe) try some front plastic fins.
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..
and many pages ago Basher ? said - other things in set-up matter much more .... boom hgt / mastfoot spot./ harness lines / technique / TOW etc and just about the longest list in front of FINS , and that anybody that tweaks they're essentially nerds sooner tinkering than sailing ?! ... well , a formula 1 car has a shed load of billion dollars in carbon / aerodynamics / technical tweaks going on above the ground .... problem is - when the driver loses grip and faith in his tyres , and confidence in the car - no amount of tweaks to settings on the steering wheel , $$$$ of aerodynamics will help - they just come in and have to CHANGE tyres .... and they're happy again - Fins are doing so much work gripping IN / through chop etc ... and you need the confidence - at all levels ...
Btw - I have about 2 conversations a year in the parking lot re fins .... I don't care what other people ride - some here have offered genuine advice - but the 'experts' want to jump in and just block every argument .... Any shaper in the know would laugh at these 13 pages ...
In answer to the original thread question - ITS A DETUNING MECHANISM .... maybe to make things less 'complicated' - I don't know
Back on page 14 your last three words summarize it very well.
"I don't know"
And the original thread question.....
"Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?"
Select to expand quote
And the original thread question.....
"Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?"
I'll take a stab at that question:
My experience is that the bulk of windsurfers that buy "wave" boards either don't wave sail at all or they bairly surf the wave if they do. Thus, production "wave" boards have always been a compromise away from the wave and more prioritizing straight line riding. Then, because straight boxes are installed on a "wave" board, people might assume the shaper knows best. But in reality, the shaper knows that if they sell a board that sucks at planing to the average buyer of that board, they won't sell that many. The other thing I suspect is that a shaper would never admit to "dumbing" down a wave board either.
Just my opinion.
Select to expand quoteMasthead said..
And the original thread question.....
"Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?"
I'll take a stab at that question:
My experience is that the bulk of windsurfers that buy "wave" boards either don't wave sail at all or they bairly surf the wave if they do. Thus, production "wave" boards have always been a compromise away from the wave and more prioritizing straight line riding. Then, because straight boxes are installed on a "wave" board, people might assume the shaper knows best. But in reality, the shaper knows that if they sell a board that sucks at planing to the average buyer of that board, they won't sell that many. The other thing I suspect is that a shaper would never admit to "dumbing" down a wave board either.
Just my opinion.
How do you account for the severne pyro and nano.
Select to expand quoteMasthead said..
And the original thread question.....
"Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?"
I'll take a stab at that question:
My experience is that the bulk of windsurfers that buy "wave" boards either don't wave sail at all or they bairly surf the wave if they do. Thus, production "wave" boards have always been a compromise away from the wave and more prioritizing straight line riding. Then, because straight boxes are installed on a "wave" board, people might assume the shaper knows best. But in reality, the shaper knows that if they sell a board that sucks at planing to the average buyer of that board, they won't sell that many. The other thing I suspect is that a shaper would never admit to "dumbing" down a wave board either.
Just my opinion.
Mate - I think that is half the answer above for sure masthead ..... The other half - ie - why would a shaper 'dumb' down a wave board - I was stumped on completely ! - until a few days ago - something came up in email conversation with someone 'connected' ... a paragraph conversation between a brand shaper , a 'very good rider/brand ambassador ' , and a fin maker .... It explains everything ... (and that is all the details your getting from me - protecting my sources haha) - needless to say - it isn't a great look on behalf of 'some' brands ... and destroys the Anti TOE argument ....
Ive given up listening to a few anti toe guys here ... think Ive/we've ? run into a little 'clique' ...
Select to expand quoteR1DER said..seabreezer said..
and many pages ago Basher ? said - other things in set-up matter much more .... boom hgt / mastfoot spot./ harness lines / technique / TOW etc and just about the longest list in front of FINS , and that anybody that tweaks they're essentially nerds sooner tinkering than sailing ?! ... well , a formula 1 car has a shed load of billion dollars in carbon / aerodynamics / technical tweaks going on above the ground .... problem is - when the driver loses grip and faith in his tyres , and confidence in the car - no amount of tweaks to settings on the steering wheel , $$$$ of aerodynamics will help - they just come in and have to CHANGE tyres .... and they're happy again - Fins are doing so much work gripping IN / through chop etc ... and you need the confidence - at all levels ...
Btw - I have about 2 conversations a year in the parking lot re fins .... I don't care what other people ride - some here have offered genuine advice - but the 'experts' want to jump in and just block every argument .... Any shaper in the know would laugh at these 13 pages ...
In answer to the original thread question - ITS A DETUNING MECHANISM .... maybe to make things less 'complicated' - I don't know
Back on page 14 your last three words summarize it very well.
"I don't know"
And the original thread question.....
"Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?"
Not all brands RIDER ...
check out the vid .... @ 15.50
In one corner we have ..... (think Levi on custom quad tearing up hookipa)
and in the other corner ....... the ringleader is more like this ....
The portuguese importer for Tabou got some toed in fins from me for his Da Curve. 13.5+14cm replacing 11+18cm K4 (He says that is what Ezzy uses.) To adjust the trim, he had to move all fins all the way back and the back strap forward. He had a few sessions on it now. He says it feels like a quad but with more grip, speed, drive and control. And he just sent a message after another session that he noticed he has a lot more precision as well to hit the lip where he wants to where that used to be a bit of a gamble so it really upgraded his sailing.
Here he still had to move the fins and strap:
Select to expand quotesanti4 said..
what does that sailor weigh? and what volume does it use?
I think he is 80-82 and it is an 88L Tabou Da Curve. He sent another message that he is still learning to find the limits, that he can push harder now without losing grip and risking getting drilled with the feet in the straps. On Facebook he wrote: "It's working very well Bouke.... More precise, more speed down the line, more forward projection.... Great fins!!"
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..R1DER said..seabreezer said..
and many pages ago Basher ? said - other things in set-up matter much more .... boom hgt / mastfoot spot./ harness lines / technique / TOW etc and just about the longest list in front of FINS , and that anybody that tweaks they're essentially nerds sooner tinkering than sailing ?! ... well , a formula 1 car has a shed load of billion dollars in carbon / aerodynamics / technical tweaks going on above the ground .... problem is - when the driver loses grip and faith in his tyres , and confidence in the car - no amount of tweaks to settings on the steering wheel , $$$$ of aerodynamics will help - they just come in and have to CHANGE tyres .... and they're happy again - Fins are doing so much work gripping IN / through chop etc ... and you need the confidence - at all levels ...
Btw - I have about 2 conversations a year in the parking lot re fins .... I don't care what other people ride - some here have offered genuine advice - but the 'experts' want to jump in and just block every argument .... Any shaper in the know would laugh at these 13 pages ...
In answer to the original thread question - ITS A DETUNING MECHANISM .... maybe to make things less 'complicated' - I don't know
Back on page 14 your last three words summarize it very well.
"I don't know"
And the original thread question.....
"Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?"
Not all brands RIDER ...
check out the vid .... @ 15.50
John Skye said this board was the biggest jump forward in testing prototypes in 20 years of getting new boards ... a mix of bottom shape , winger , and @@@
I don't think we will see RRD go back to straight boxes (at least I hope not)
Yep one brand, but again using flexible plastic fins.
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..
In one corner we have ..... (think Levi on custom quad tearing up hookipa)
and in the other corner ....... the ringleader is more like this ....
BTW ..RIDER - when the penny drops (and not about TOE) - it will be pretty amusing and explain everything that's gone on here - until then ...
More evidence of bizarre comments 
Finfoil had a diagram up on Facebook demonstrating the differences between a symmetrical and asymmetrical (cambered) fin. First of all it shows that in order for an asymmetrical fin with 2% camber (which isnt much, probably something like a 45/55 foil) the fin needs 2.4 degrees more toe in order to run neutral. This is even more compared to the 2 degrees I showed earlier in the thread (With the images from FoilSIM which had the "wrong" Reynolds number according to SchobiHH). It also shows the inner fin can handle a lot higher AoA before stalling. Add to that the 2.4 extra degrees of toe, that gives at least a 4.8 degrees in maximum AoA a fin can handle. A big difference in grip the inner fin delivers so you can push a lot harder and turn tighter. Plus, with the added toe, the lift is projected more forward so delivers more drive as well. As Ola said as well, when you simply go straight down a wave, without lateral pressure from the sail, all fins should run neutral to have the ideal set up to enter the turn. But it also shows that if you make a profile asymmetrical and you do not add enough toe, it creates (more) lift, which translates into drag and the straight lining effect.
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..
In one corner we have ..... (think Levi on custom quad tearing up hookipa)
and in the other corner ....... the ringleader is more like this ....
BTW ..RIDER - when the penny drops (and not about TOE) - it will be pretty amusing and explain everything that's gone on here - until then ...
Agree with you... However that is KT in the first picture....
