Hi everyone, I just sent the below to the Bayside and Wanderers clubs (not sure of the email addresses for WQ, SEQWA, and LCSC, so can you please pass this on?), and thought everyone else should be made aware of it too. Don't want to see any others get fined 
Hi guys,
Just wanted to make sure you know that the council is enforcing a local law that bans Kiters and Windsurfers from rigging within the Wellington Point reserve.
Myself and another had our details taken this afternoon for rigging on the grass near the western part of the reserve. Apparently such activities are illegal, and the penalty for undertaking a prohibited activity such as this is $375 (the main reason given to me by officer for this being an offence is that the equipment could be caught by the wind and blown into/onto another person possibly causing an injury). This was the first I'd personally heard of this law, and it did put a dampener on an already largely windless afternoon.
From my discussion with the officer, this has been triggered by several recent complaints from other reserve users. The officer said they were for incidents
involving kites, and that kites were the main target, however windsurfers were also to have their details recorded.
At this stage neither of us today have had an infringement issued, this will be decided later in the week. According to the officer being windsurfers apparently works in our favour as we aren't the prime target and are regarded as less of a threat to others. Personally I'm not holding out much hope.
Key points for us to avoid this in the future are:
1) Don't rig on the grass anywhere in the reserve
2) Rigging on the beach below the high tide mark is fine (this area is outside council's authority, as such the rule does not apply here)
3) We can transport our equipment (unrigged) through the reserve to rig on the beach/return it to our cars etc.
This is likely to cause an issue where the tide is high, particularly when one of the clubs is running an event as the only location we can both rig and park all of our equipment is on the beach. Considering many others also swim etc here and the beach is small when the tide is high, it does seem to be potentially a difficult situation. It's fortunate that the Bayside slalom meet last week avoided this, else 40 or so of us could have walked away with possible fines hanging over our heads.
There must be some way we can find a compromise for all. Perhaps council would permit rigging of windsurfing equipment at the far western end of the park where it is sheltered from the wind in most directions, and if equipment is caught by a N-NE wind it will be blown into the trees rather than the park? It's the only option I've come up with thus far...
At least I got a little just-planing sail (after an hour of practicing light wind gybes) to end the day on a positive note.
I'll post this to the WQ forum on Seabreeze so others are aware too. Not sure of the email addresses for WQ, SEQWA, and LCSC, if you know them, could you please forward this?
Regards,
Hamish (AUS691)
That's a bit of a shock, the fine seems excessive too.
Did the officer give any contacts for what department within council can be contacted to discuss this and possibly come to an agreement for "safe" rigging area's when the tides high?
Are there any signs up advising that rigging is not permitted?
I know at one of my favoured sailing spots in NSW the council have signs up advising that windsurfing, kiting, jetskiing etc is not permitted within 200m of the rock wall to keep us away from the swimmers and other beachgoers.
Someone please take this council to court.
Oh and thanks a f***ing lot to the kiters that contributed to this s***. 20 odd years of sailboards without an incident, you guys show up and within 6 months council is slapping down laws 
JasonP yes there are signs there advising that no personal water craft are to enter the reserve. Fine the wrong person and I can see that the signs are going to start costing the council 
... if the kiters had any sense 
Redlands, most fascist council in SEQ but it doesnt seem to matter which way you vote the precedent has been set, $ is the only argument they understand.
Odd that they can hand out fines for such without a verbal warning 1st though, with anything else they have to prove that you saw and understood the signage.
it was my understanding when they brought in these laws/bans , that it was for kiters, NOT windsurfers. Kiters havent been allowed to rig on the grass for a coupla years. As with the marine industry the police often misinterpret the law and go around fining people incorrectly .(maybe they thought those "things" you had were kitesurfers??) Best to check with the council first.
I had heard of this before, but thought it was only for kites due to the length of lines etc.
The sign about Personal Water Craft (that I have never actually seen) is a bit misleading if they are including us and kites under that, as PWC is the common title for jetski's and waverunners. I think most courts would see it that way also.
If there are no signs that clearly stipulate the rules I think any fines would be very contestable. However the onus may be on the users of a given area to understand the by-laws of that area, I'm not sure what the precedent for this is.
If anyone gets a fine, or finds a contact for the area of redlands council that is responsible for these laws please let me know. I am happy to follow this further as the last thing we want is to have any areas banned, don't want this to be the first of many. It may be much easier for us to work with the council to find a solution that suits all users of Wello.
Jamie
SEQ Wavesailing
Yes there are two signs, the first at the top of the hill in regard to kites. Second is near carpark on western side stating all PWC are prohibited from entering the reserve.
According to Redlands Council Local Law 15 this is the definition of Personal Water Craft:
"personal watercraft" means a power driven ship that (a) has a fully enclosed hull that does not take on water if capsized; and (b) is designed to be operated by a person standing, crouching or kneeling on it or sitting astride it.
The only thing in Local Law 15 that could relate to Windsurfing or Kitesurfing is the following, listed as a prohibited activity:
Engage in any activity which would be likely to injure, endanger, obstruct, inconvenience or annoy any other person in a park or reserve;
Which is pretty broad sweeping and could just as easily apply to someone kicking a football.
Mark!
You are well aware that it isn't the 'regular wello crew' that caused any of the problems that saw this kiting/ windsurfing ban come into play. 
It happened years before I began kiting, and BOTH incidents were tourists who were advised NOT to go out in the conditions. 
ONE person can ruin the sport and area for several. Any other kiters who have caused problems have been spoken to about their actions on the water and the repercussions of it!
I understand yours/ other windsurers frustration though.
There is nothing worse than being put under the same umbrella as people who cause these problems!
Hi Vando, sorry I didn't get his name. We were both happy to get planing, even if only for a few minutes - always makes things seem better. You're probably there more than any us, so keep an eye out. I understand their position, and the council officer was just acting under instruction from her boss (who is probably acting under instruction as well). I got the impression she didn't really see us as much of a problem, and was perhaps fishing for ways to explain why. She was nice enough though, we'll see where it goes.
@JasonP - it is pretty large isn't it? My wife pointed out it's more than a speeding fine 
. We've not been fined yet, so I'm not out of pocket - yet. Fingers crossed There's going to be a follow up later in the week, it seems at this point they are looking to take each occurrence on a case-by-case basis - at least for windsurfers - kiters seem to be getting a hard line approach. The kiting crew (locals anyway) seem to know the deal and keep off the grass (now I know the deal too ).
Mark, it's always a couple of idiots that ruin it for the rest. I did witness a kite hitting another park user last month as it was being recklessly landed. He copped a big spray from just about every other kiter within shouting distance, they weren't impressed.
We'll see what the week brings eh? Hopefully we can work something out. Think I may go to Manly this afternoon...
Hamish
hi guys,
this has happened before. last time it all blew over once the officer had explained to them that it's not windsurfers causing the issues and the rules were introduced to deal with the kiters. I hope that is what happens once again and you guys don't get fined.
if not certainly the wanderers, seqwa and i am sure the othe clubs will get together and see what can be done.
as far as i am aware this law applies to all parks in the redland shire. please let us know what happens.
now without starting a flame war with the wello kiters.
this situation is completely due to kiters. it has nothing to do with windsurfers and it isn't because of 2 kiters years ago. there are continuously IDIOT KITERS causing trouble.
Gestalt, As an ex windsurfer and now kiter, I also don't want a flame war with Wello windsurfers....I think you are quite accurate in allocating the blame for the regulation to kiters. The instigation of the regulation clearly arose from particular incidents many years ago - but you are also accurate in noting that "...there are continuously IDIOT KITERS causing trouble." (I take "IDIOT KITERS" to refer to the small but annoying sub class of kiters who are idiots rather than IDIOT being a descriptor for all kiters. Is that interpretation correct?)
AUS691, Although I can't recall how the local law and policy integrate to provide for the regulation, I think you'll find that it is quite specific to kiting, that the council officer who took your details perhaps couldn't tell the difference or wasn't so sure about the law and that you won't be fined (of course I stand to be corrected). Could you let me know directly (as I may not see this thread updated) how this pans out? I was involved a few years ago with other kiters in negotiations with council and it's important that we keep up to date with what's happening. If you needed support from a kiter to confirm to council that windsurfers are not the problem, I'd be happy to chip in with such advice. Although it shouldn't matter, the fact that I'm an IKO qualified instructor might help.
Re mkseven's "...20 odd years of sailboards without an incident,..." - was there not a sailboard fatality in Redlands many years ago? Perhaps it was at Victoria Point rather than Wello? As it wasn't related to other users as it was not on the beach/park, it's perhaps not directly relevant - but it would be as well to be aware of the details in any discussions with council.
hi Rovert,
yep, i'm referring to the sub group.
actually one of the guys i sail with has a scar running from his mouth to behind his ear from a tangle with kite lines.
the VP thing i don't believe to be relevant. it didn't involve members of the public being affected by the sport.
i will find out the exact story next time it's windy.
As far as I am aware this issue is realted to kites only , So on behalf of the bayside club I will contact redland shire council I will contact them tomorrow
Simon Fyfe
President Bayside sailboards
our friend who kites got a fine in the mail from the council for 370 $ for bringing kitegear in to Wello. When the councilworkers took his details, the kite wasn't even rigged, it was just the bar and the board on the grass. We had 2 windsurfing rigs and boards on the grass at the same time but council didn't even look at it nor did they ask for our details.
Rovert yes you are correct but as I understand that was a windsurfer hitting another windsurfer (we still sail with the surviving party) and is akin to a kite hitting a kite- it does not bring the public into it which is the issue that brings the council into it. The council has a duty of care to provide a safe environment at wello, if there is any unsafe activity that has been reported and goes unchecked they then become liable.
To say there has not been an incident is also an untruth, I will admit to that- however the potential for injury from a kite is far greater than that of a sailboard short of a tornado dropping out of the sky and wrapping a windsurfing rig around some poor beachgoer.
This is not a one off for some of us, we sail there everyday and we are the ones that potentially suffer from the irresponsible actions of others. I am not blaming ALL kiters, as they also are there everyday some of us do interact a bit and I actually do feel sorry that their activity has the stigma created by the stupid few. We all f*** up and I accept that even from kiters but things were ridiculous there for a while and there was no action being taken by anyone. With the wello kiting crew so strong in numbers why dont you guys officiate a club and then go prove to the council that you are regulating yourselves and that your activity is safe.
this kite equipment ban has been going on for a few years now and never heard of windsurfers being approached by council officer, i wonder if it was a different officer. maybe like gestalt said, give it a month or so and it will blow over, and was probably just a knee-jerk in reaction to a recent complaint of some kind. they gotta look like they're doing something. after all it is summer and been hot, with more folk in / on the water at the moment. winter will probably be back to the same old
the worst part is not knowing where you stand with regards to fines. this maybe you will, maybe you won't situation is really annoying
I've been there I think three times to the council attempting to hand out fines to us. Once I think one of the guys handed over his details, the other couple of times we argued to point and seemed to convince the council officer.
virtually puts an end to sailing at high tide
are we allowed to rig up on the road?
Simon, Give me a call if it's relevant to have a kiter involved in your discussions with council. My experience with council has been that it is difficult to find someone who knows what's going on or has any relevant authority.
mkseven & Gestalt, I noted in my initial post that the windsurfer fatality may not be directly relevant to Council's concerns...I just think it is worth being aware of it in case it is raised by council.
I also agree, mkseven, that the potential for injury from a kite is far greater than from a windsurfer. There was a club based at Wello, Moreton Bay Kitesurfing Club, for a brief period when this issue was hot a few years ago. The club's raison d'etre was representation to council. To my mind it was never adequately resolved - there was a verbal agreement that council would fine those rigging on the reserve, but not below high water mark, but not enforce the policy as it stands. This is as documented on the sign at the top of the hill leading to the reserve...which says that taking kite gear into the reserve is prohibited. Having one documented policy but enforcing something else seems to be poor policy... Wim's comment that "Our friend who kites got a fine...the kite wasn't even rigged, it was just the bar and the board on the grass." suggests that the verbally agreed policy is not in fact operational.
I think you are right in suggesting that a club be formed - but I'm afraid there is very little enthusiasm for any "organisation". Having said that, a fair bit of informal self regulation is practiced..though, arguably, this is not sufficient.
windykid, The policy is applicable only to the Wellington Point Reserve.
Any of you regulars at Wello will have seen me kiting, particularly in lighter winds when I'm likely to be the only one on the water. I have the big Flysurfer ram air foil - looks like a paraglider and does not have a pressurised leading edge like almost all the other kites at Wello. Please say hello/introduce yourself if we pass on the beach. If you have complaints about particular kiters, please take a note of anything you can about the offending kite/individual so that we can possibly identify the kiter - we probably already know who they are, but more "data" to use in our efforts at moral suasion would be helpful.
Trevor Jack
Ah so yours is the kite with 1 million strings going to different points- orange and black thing yer?
The wello windsurfing crew as commonly mis-believed does not bite... we are pretty accepting of you guys and rightly so your choice of fun so why the hell would we want to impede on it. We are pretty accepting of kites, wello kiters have started to prove to us that you guys are safe but I can see where the council comes from. Why Vando and I almost had our heads taken off yesterday but it was a simple mistake so we didn't go all KKK on him.
I know the Redlands council are hard to deal with, living here I have had many problems bordering harrassment as my ex liked her animals (rspca volunteer etc). They did not back off until I threatened them with legal involvement to which I had not seen them since. In effect the solution they have provided you with is not one of compromise at all, they moved you out of the area to which they are responsible to an area where it is someone elses problem. They don't know the answer or its above their authority are common answers... I use them all the time at work Kiters really need to approach the MP as residents of the area and make ONE person reponsible who needs the authority otherwise they wont have a job in 4 years.
I have done work for BCC, Ipswich & Redcliffe with stuff that directly involves the use of by-laws, I know how bad Redlands is. Great location to live the rest is s***
Mkseven, My light wind kite has about 120 different lines ...I guess, compared with most kites, that's close enough to 1 million...the pump up guys seem to see it that way! Red/black/grey mostly. High aspect ratio - 5.9 I think.
You say Vando and you nearly had your heads taken off yesterday - "...but it was a simple mistake". That sounds more like bad behaviour to me. There really is no excuse for a kiter being in a position where that can happen.
The inconsistency in Council's position is the following. The policy states that kite equipment is not allowed in the Reserve. But fines are only generally issued if kites are rigged in the Reserve (though I note your friend's fine with just bar and board on the grass). The other inconsistency is that even the fining when kites are rigged in the Reserve is only done rarely. Although I know it hurts when kiters get a fine, the number of fines is very low - I'd guess there might be about 1 fine per 500 kite riggings in the Reserve. Regulation without enforcement is never a good idea ...not that I'm advocating more enforcement, just better regulation.
Red-orange close enough I guess we have become complacent about kites turning upwind of us but yes often the kite loses power and drops as this one did. I hope that particular guy learnt his lesson of why not to do that.
Any authority has to be consistent on their enforcement- they either enforce or they dont. If one kiter gets pinged and ten kiters rigging 20m away dont that is bordering on victimisation. Most people are pretty self protective so its the pack theory in action- all rig together, the one that seperates from the group is the first that will be eaten. Council officers would be much more comfortable approaching 1 or 2 people rather than 20 people.
Okay
I have spoken to Redland Shire Council this morning have been assured by Lance Howard that "there is no problem with sailboarders rigging on the grass at the wellington point reserve" the by law only effects kite boarders
Simon Fyfe
President Bayside Sailboards
)
Thanks Simon. As Vando said sailboards could be confused with kites so just have to set the council officers straight.
