Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk

FangyFin MkII Theory for insomniacs

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Created by fangman > 9 months ago, 20 Feb 2017
pepe47
WA, 1382 posts
6 Feb 2019 2:42PM
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I think techtonics dont do any research at all. They just copy everyone elses ideas. I seem to recall you said the same thing about specsavers last time too. I guess you're not a big fan of originality

fangman
WA, 1906 posts
6 Feb 2019 2:45PM
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AUS4 said..

fangman said..
Tectonics new fin for 2019 looks very familiar. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery perhaps
The durability of a fine fillet made of G10 will be interesting to monitor long term because at $286 AUD plus freight it would be a bummer to snap it off!





I think you may be delusional and need to visit Specsavers. Also fins are more about foil than outline.


no arguments from me on the delusional side of things, I think that is pretty well known, but I did think that fillet around the nose looked vaguely like something I had seen before.

pepe47
WA, 1382 posts
6 Feb 2019 2:52PM
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I read somewhere that if you copy from one source it's plagiarism but if you copy from two it's called research, go figure

decrepit
WA, 12776 posts
6 Feb 2019 5:25PM
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AUS4 said..
I think you may be delusional and need to visit Specsavers. Also fins are more about foil than outline.


Last time you said that, you were talking to an optometrist.

And the fangy fillet does indeed look very familiar.

boardsurfr
WA, 2454 posts
6 Feb 2019 8:44PM
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pepe47 said..
I think techtonics dont do any research at all. They just copy everyone elses ideas. I seem to recall you said the same thing about specsavers last time too. I guess you're not a big fan of originality


Please be a bit more careful when you talk about the Tectonics Weed Demon. The fin was developed by CNC FIns (http://cncfins.com) after quite a bit of development, which included rather sophisticated flow modeling using very high-end supercomputers and software. The first time I sailed the weed fin was in October 2015. The main developer is an outstanding windsurfer and engineer, Keith McCulloch. He build his own CNC machine that he used to manufacture the first fins. He later handed the manufacturing over to Tectonics, since they have the same machine, plus a lot of experience in making high-end CNC fins, and Keith had no interest in manufacturing fins.

I believe that the development of the Tectonic Weed Demon predates the Fangy fin. I have talked to (and windsurfed with) both Keith and Ross about the fin development, and it seems that they came up with the "slow lead in" respectively "fillet" idea independently (but probably based on similar concepts used in turbines and airplane wings). They also has similar, but not identical, problems with weed. Keith sails on Cape Hatteras in North Carolina, and regular 40-45 degree weed fins do not shed the very sticky seagrass that is common there; his original fin had a 47 degree angle. I guess Fangy's reasons for developing his fins are well known.

The end result in both cases are quite similar: both the CNC Fins weedie (now "Tectonics Weed Demon") and the Fangy Fins blow any comparable fins that existed before out of the water, especially with respect to spinout resistance and shedding weed. Neither fin was developed for top speed, but both are quite impressive in this regard. Nina and I have set a seemingly endless stream of PBs on the Fangy Fins, and the Weed Demon has done extremely well in races on Cape Hatteras, including the long distance event with a couple of hundred racers.

fangman
WA, 1906 posts
6 Feb 2019 9:41PM
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Thanks for the background info Peter.

pepe47
WA, 1382 posts
7 Feb 2019 8:58AM
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Did keith build his own machine from scratch, or was it a kit? Just asking as I use a cnc to cut my fins.
Also a smaller machine for the logo.
Also, and please excuse my ignorance but what is a supercomputer?

fangman
WA, 1906 posts
7 Feb 2019 10:03AM
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Firstly, my apologies to Keith at cncfins.com. It was ignorant, presumptuous and arrogant of me to think I was the only person thinking of fillets.

Second, to my mind, using other people's ideas without acknowledgement/attribution is plagiarism, but if done correctly "We stand on the shoulders of giants to see a liitle further" Bernard/Newton

Thirdly, Pepe, supercomputers are simply computers that are able to perform things called FLOPS at a much faster rate than normal computers. In reality, they can do lots of calculations faster. When you are modelling fluid flow, they allow for the analysis of each element (a tiny cube of water in this case) to be done at a much finer level and in real time, rather than running your model and waiting overnight to see what happens. It allows for a much more scientific approach to design than the empirical methods we use.

Of course, it still relies heavily on how good your software modelling actually is at predicting real-life environment variables. In this case think, turbulence, chop/introduced air, board surface shape/roughness, weed burgs to name a few. This is supremely difficult for the guys writing the program code. So even when the first Deltas were modelled and produced optimum results in a lab environment, as we all know, they worked ok when the real world environment was similar to the model (smooth water), but were hopeless in chop. Another example, BOM's fancy new supercomputer runs several forecasting models, but they rarely get the wind forecast 'accurate' for Mandurah. In short, producing real-world software models is a very difficult thing to achieve, and much kudos must go to the guys writing the code trying to achieve it!

remery
WA, 3709 posts
7 Feb 2019 4:37PM
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In the early days of slalom racing around Safety Bay we hadn't encountered that ribbon weed. It was horrific and I was desperate for a quick solution, so drilled a tiny hole in the tip of my dolphin fin and strung fishing line from it and wrapped around the front of the board. It didn't work. Later I ground the leading edge of a Strata Skeg and that worked a little better (interesting to consider what angle they were at). The Football Fin could be used for cleaning up weed across the entire bay.

fangman
WA, 1906 posts
7 Feb 2019 6:03PM
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Nice fins Remery Do have any idea what the thinking was behind the football fin?

decrepit
WA, 12776 posts
7 Feb 2019 7:39PM
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As I understand it, it was to get the working area as far away from the atmosphere as possible to stop ventilation, which was a big problem with those old floppy fins

fangman
WA, 1906 posts
7 Feb 2019 8:15PM
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decrepit said..
As I understand it, it was to get the working area as far away from the atmosphere as possible to stop ventilation, which was a big problem with those old floppy fins



..and you have just answered my next question.

boardsurfr
WA, 2454 posts
7 Feb 2019 8:41PM
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pepe47 said..
Did keith build his own machine from scratch, or was it a kit? Just asking as I use a cnc to cut my fins.
Also a smaller machine for the logo.


The impression I got was that Keith built his CNC machine from parts, not a kit. He gave a bunch of explanations about the parts and software he used, but that was a few years ago, so I don't remember the details.

Fangy's point about the quality of the simulations is spot-on. From what I remember, Keith had access to very high-end simulation software that would be out of reach for most fin designers. The computation results showed that he "front only fillet" made a big difference. I hope other weed fin designers pick the idea up.

powersloshin
NSW, 1839 posts
13 Feb 2019 9:44AM
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39.4 at LG with FF20 cut to 17, going over the thick weeds.
gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2019-02-12&team=33





decrepit
WA, 12776 posts
13 Feb 2019 8:21AM
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And that speed was up with the best of them, very impressive George!

fangman
WA, 1906 posts
13 Feb 2019 10:28AM
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powersloshin said..
39.4 at LG with FF20 cut to 17, going over the thick weeds.
gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2019-02-12&team=33






Sensational Georgio! I think that is the fastest official 2 sec on FF and if it's not, it's very close. The fin and speed are a credit to your workmanship and skill, well done! ( your lawn could do with some work tho)

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8261 posts
13 Feb 2019 5:26PM
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Great speed George! Maybe there is hope for my cutdown 22 ( 16)..maybe I should have tried it..
Not that I'm going to get speeds in that league..



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"FangyFin MkII Theory for insomniacs" started by fangman