Rad Lad said...

FlickySpinny said...

saltiest1 said...

Even if the other person is a douche and in the wrong, if you have the option to take avoiding action and you do not take that option and collision occurs, you are partially at fault in the eyes of the law.

If I understand correctly if you have a stack, even if you had right of way, you will always be found as guilty as the douche. Why? Because you had the option of taking action to avoid collision but you chose not to. In other words you have the right of way but are still partially at fault. This defeats the purpose of having the rule.

OK, so here's some more details.

This is in the eyes of the law. You (as the starboard tack sailor) will be apportioned a certain level of the blame. It will not be 50:50 if it is a simple port-starboard collision - the port-tack sailor will take most of the blame, but some blame will be apportioned to the starboard tack sailor. The reason for talking about portions of blame is for the purpose of liability and the resulting punishment or compensation claims in a court of law - not normally something (thankfully) that is a major concern to a wavesailor, but is indeed relevant should you wind up in court.

The reason for this is to ensure that an idiot does not have an accident that could have been avoided just out of principle because they had the right of way. This is especially important in the case of the ocean given the potentially very serious consequences of even a small accident whilst at sea.

Here endeth the lesson. Want more? Go study the UK Marine Accident Investigation Branch's annual accident report.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/annual_reports/annual_report_2009.cfm

I'm sure you'll find some collision information in there.

In the impact zone the guy heading out has right of way. The guy heading out should try let the guy ride the wave, but when it gets to one of those last minute panic situations, then the guy heading out has right of way. We all need to obey the same rule for those last minute emergency situations. Surely the wave rider should be skilled enough before they start the ride to see who's coming out and be able to watch the wave and other people around him.

My definition of blind spot, is somewhere to the side/behind you.
How often do you look that way wave riding?

And yes I have had people coming from that direction well powered up going downwind.

And sorry who made the PWA any authority here?

All very well this cuming in goin out right of way palava,but what sort of size wave brake we talkin about here,and is there a channel!!,,,and when out the back its dog eat fkn dog to get furthest upwind befor ya turn arround and charge back sometimes often resulting in being offshore more than the average folk cauld swim back,,,,,,,,,,on ya way back in choose ya line that directly takes ya to the take off point and hold ya neck to the right,,,dont give way and hold ya line,if ya swell that ya picked up out the back lines up for ya sign it at the start and paint it after.....,,,,,,,,And any summer chop in metro ,,,why the fk would you even bother.........

Yeah I guess you can see behind you during the bottom turn, but it's pretty easy to check you're clear while dropping down the face.. when I'm wavesailing, I know exactly where everyone else is, and I expect the same.

PWA and the RYA follow set maritime rights of way, which have been around before the 80's.. Port gives way to starboard, power gives way to sail, everyone gives way to trawlers, overtaking vessel gives way, turning vessel gives way, windsurfer heading in gives way.. This is universal..

Who made Avalon windsurfers in the 80's the authority?

There are no road signs or lines on the water, but there are strict rules.. And its just as important that they are followed on the water as on the roads..

For these reasons the guy heading in on a wave must make way, even at Avalon, Unless the guy coming out has made his course in a direction that does not cross the path of the wave sailor. This is serious business, a Frenchman should be able to launch at Avalon and follow the universal wave rules and not get run over..

Just like I don't drive into a suburb in sydney and find everyone driving on the right/

frant said...

I think that sailors should be aware that there is no such concept as "right of way" at sea. We do not operate on the road with road rules. The International regulations for prevention of collisions at sea apply to all sailing craft as modified by local regulations.
Every craft has a responsibility to maintain an adequate lookout and take actions to avoid collision. The regulations prescribe which vessel shall first take evasive action (give way vessel) but this does not remove the onus from the other vessel (stand on vessel) to to maintain an adequate lookout and take evasive action itself in a timely manner if the give way vessel has not responded.
These regulations give sufficient flexibility in interpretation of which vessel might be stand on and actions to allow for navigational hazards etc that any of the local "surf" rules might well be in accordance with these regs.
Effectively YOU are responsible to make sure that you are not involved in a collision. How you sort it out is up to local convention but no one has an absolute "right of way".

Off the topic a bit but I remember one day at Valentine on the lake in the 90s' where there were 23 sailors out ( good old days..). I can't remember which way I was going but I was well powered up & another guy was coming towards me. I just assume everyone doesn't know the rules so I changed course to avoid him.. U nfortunately he decided to change course too which meant we were still on a collission course. I changed course again..he did .. I did .. CRASH!!..Luckily the sharp nose of my board only got the front of his. If it had got him it could have been nasty.I suppose a loud shout of 'starboard 'or something may have helped if he could hear but what if he didnt know what that meant?

I think it might have been me!

This is the way I remember the situation:
I was heading out through the break, pinching upwind. The guy on the Tushingham sail (was that you 'Saltiest1'?) was heading in, also pinching upwind. I held my course as I was going out through the break, and the Tushingham guy turned down wind to avoid running into me.
The way I see it is that only ONE of us had to change course to avoid a collision. If both of us changed course we would have then collided. So it was either you, or me. (I assumed it should be you as I had right of way going out). You got this one, I'll get the next round.

The right of way rules in wavesailing need to be simple. You can't change it for when someone's planning, or whatever. That's when collisions DO occur – when people are trying to consider all the variables and then decide which one of them has right of way. The other day at Avalon was all pretty slow motion so plenty of time to easily avoid running into each other, but when things are fast paced and guys are planning out at 25knots it needs to be a simple 'sailor going out has right of way'.

Hope I didn't spoil your sail Saltiest1 – was a sick day. Next time I'm down wait until you see me on a set and call me off it – it's all yours.
Ben.

OK just to test all your rules

Side shore wind

Both sailors have gybed on the same swell at the same time sum distance
apart . I.E are on the same tack

Both sailors are heading in and converging
one down wind one up wind of a
distinct pitching A frame left and right take off.


Both have the opertunity to wack the **** out of this pitching A framed pit ,
with the same amount of power and intensity.

I.E

One sailor is right up wind about to bearing away to the top of the A frame

the other sailor is riding back hand and wants to hit the same A frame

What are the options for both ?
Who should give way to who and for what reasons?

KOP,

I would agree with the rules set out by the PWA which are decided by the wavesailors themselves.. They sound pretty reasonable..

So sounds like the windward sailor has possession, but he better do something sick..



This happens a lot at Corros, if there is somebody upwind about to do a 2km bottom turn I just shoot out the front of the wave and let 'em make a dummy of themselves..

I am a surfer first and the rule there is that the guy/girl on the wave has right of way and the people paddling out should paddle into the whitewater to avoid them. The version of the rules you guys are talking about are all new to me but I am taking it on board.

FlickySpinny said...

In that situation a very loud "STARBOARD" is in order

What if your ridding a quatro, or jp, fanatic or other board ?

I just wanna now how the fk Decrepit and Rider5, both good wavesailors with many years experience, post the same thing and one gets heaps of red thumbs and the other green.
Go figure.

Avalon rules are what I thought standard for proper DTL spots - going out has right of way but if you are heading out you don't have the right to fk up anyone's waveride. Simple.

^^^they probly didnt ask right of way rules because they wouldnt have thought too as they use the standard sailing rules and wouldnt even know you have your own private rules.
But if going out you have right of way,
so can hold your line and jump,the person on the wave must straighten out/pull off the wave to avoid collision or they are at fault,simple. Or is that wrong????

Im not asking you mark..you will say it is wrong or twist it somehow to try and troll,so please dont answer. Im asking barn and the other people of wisdom on here.

Mark _australia said...

but lotofwind there is the bone of contention

the first waveriding rules, from C.1984 in ho'okipa, was that going out has right of way but if that guy has an optimal jump he does not have the right to fk up somebody's wave ride.

that will always be hard...... or local rules according to if jumping or riding is perceived as more important at that spot

EDIT: too late I'd already replied. Yes, I know fk all about right of way after 17 years in waves, and I never ever give people waves even if I have right of way. Yeah you got me

Mate,Im not aiming these questions at you or hasseling you,no need to get defensive,Im asking the general crew out there. We know you must be right as you have 17 years experience so everyone elses opinions must be wrong
I have been riding waves for 31 years my son,so going by your logic, I must know more about the rules than you or maritime??????

well, i thought it was a simple question........