Cool sea dogs.

I do understand why people love OD or Wally's, its a bit like sailing in old wooden boats, it is relaxing, slow and has a charm. Not my cup of tea, but understand people like that relaxing activity. Also the social side, like old men tinkering with old boats, like minded people enjoying remembering the good old days - all good.

What classifies a windsurfing board and sail board? Would you say a sail board is a board you sail on, essentually a non-planning board like a wally and OD. And a windsurfing board is when you get on the plane - essentually surfing over the water - skimming..... well that's my classification.

So more appropriate to say OD or Wally Sailboards?

paddymac said...

KA360 said...

paddymac said...
Apparently the old long boards are still good for something

Do you think those seals would go back to the wally if they had a new Starboard Start that was 1m wide and had a foam deck?

No way- widestyle has the seal of approval.

The seals will leave the wally for those with wings(not bags of air) to s_it on!

K Dog said...
Cool sea dogs.

I do understand why people love OD or Wally's, its a bit like sailing in old wooden boats, it is relaxing, slow and has a charm. Not my cup of tea, but understand people like that relaxing activity. Also the social side, like old men tinkering with old boats, like minded people enjoying remembering the good old days - all good.

What classifies a windsurfing board and sail board? Would you say a sail board is a board you sail on, essentually a non-planning board like a wally and OD. And a windsurfing board is when you get on the plane - essentually surfing over the water - skimming..... well that's my classification.

So more appropriate to say OD or Wally Sailboards?

It's the other way around, I think. The term "windsurfer" was coined by an ad man who was one of Hoyle and Jim's very first customers. It became a trademark and was applied to the original Windsurfer (TM) and, early on, to the whole sport. Later, as the sport became more popular and Hoyle found out that he would lose his rights to the term Windsurfer, he tried to get people to use it to refer just to Windsurfer (TM) boards and call other boards "sailboards" - something he did by sending lawyers letters around!

So the Wally was actually THE Windsurfer. Shortboards (or those not made by Hoyle) were sailboards. Given that the word was created for the One Design, applied to the One Design and was initially illegal to use for other boards, it makes little sense to swap the terms around now.

And the Wally certainly planes anyway - they planed around the time that the term "Windsurfing" was created and they plane today. The only time we tried (AFAIK) a GPS on one we got 25.4 verified peak in really crappy conditions - we'd get a fair bit more in flat water and at a better angle. Long-term Seabreeze readers may recall a post years back from a guy who was top 10 in the world GPS rankings, recalling how he took his Formula board in a race on Gippsland Lakes and was beaten by Wallies in a big breeze. You don't do that without planing. They feel different on the plane, but a widestyle beginner's board feels different to a sinker and no one calls sailing the former a different sport.

Wallies or similar boards can be very relaxing. In strong winds I actually find them LESS relaxing in many ways than shortboards, because the small fin and flexy rig, plus the way you have to change modes from upwind and downwind means that you're always working the board rather than just standing there. It's like driving an automatic car rather than a manual. In contrast, sailing shortboards on flat water bores me, although good on those who like it. Best of luck to those who prefer other boards, but I just can't work out why some of them have to bag out some gear.

My old Wayler planed perfectly. I first got on the plane in strong winds around the 20+knot at Lake Cootharaba using a 3.5m2 sail last year. I become instantly hooked to the sport. I was then able to consistantly plane in most high wind and winds as low as 7knots with a 6m2 old sail on.

I also enjoy the relaxing temperament of the old boards in low winds. I don't care if I'm being over taken by newer boards, as long as I'm on the water having a good time is all that matters.

That's funny the new wide boards have inspired gen y
There are people who windsurf for fun and others that windsurf to look good

mrrt said...

.The wally is a specialist board and has its place and those who have mastered riding them should be fully respected,but if you ever again recommend then to beginers I will be forced to make fun of you retro guys.

Indeed. That is my position as someone who has seen the difference between running a fleet of Wallys and other ancient big boards compared to upgrading to a fleet of modern wide learner boards. Please don't recommend Wallys for learning - in my experience you'll turn more people off the sport than you turn on.

YOUR experience is in a completely different geographical place to my experience.

OUR experience comes up with a completely different lesson. We have a very good retention rate because the boards work for what we want.

At Dobroyd, Techno 293 widestyle boards are about 2/3 as fast as a Wally and struggle to get upwind. Why do you want to make the sport so slow and expensive to people who sail in such areas? Why do you want them to have to pull up a sail 2kg heavier?

I ask again - have you ever sailed in the areas where we sail? Do you have the faintest idea of what the conditions are like and the way we sail?

I've taken kids off widestyle boards because in our light winds and confined waters they just slid downwind into the mangroves. When I handed those kids a longboard with a smaller, lighter sail they could suddenly go upwind, sail faster, turn faster, use a lighter sail and have more fun IN OUR CONDITIONS.

You really are being appallingly arrogant when you assume that world and national wavesailing champions who advise people to get into Wallies for some types of sailing don't know what they are talking about. You are that much smarter and better informed about NSW inland windsurfing than they are, are you?

Half the guys in our old club tried widestyle boards. ALL of them gave up and went back to longboards because in OUR conditions they work better.

You sail what fits your area and sailing - which is widestyle - and let us sail what fits our area and the sort of sailing we like.

Chris 249 said...

KA360 said...

Chris 249 said...
Sure, but we're not telling all windsurfers to sail them. All we are doing, basically, is asking for people to stop bagging them out.

That's funny coming from someone who uses a wally rig
But I know that bagging them out is how you race tune your wally.

Seriously thought,I am a stickler for newbies (and those returning to the sport) to learn to windsurf correctly,progress quickly and have an enjoyable experience.I don't believe the wally is a good choice for learning on or inspiring the next generation.The wally is a specialist board and has its place and those who have mastered riding them should be fully respected,but if you ever again recommend then to beginers I will be forced to make fun of you retro guys.

Yeah, and moving to Canberra showed me just how effective that style of teaching and windsurfing has been at promoting the sport.... there's almost no one here. I've seen no more than three people out, apart from when we get 5-11 Wallies.

Yes, Alex is doing very well. However, not many families are in a position to go to the Caribbean and then move house so their kids can sail. And many kids (both Youth Worlds reps last year, etc) have started in Wallies and done very well.

I'm not retro - this year I (once again) competed in the very first national titles for a new discipline. It's just that for some conditions, some older gear works very very well.

Stop being so bloody arrogant about this - we (people like Doug, Jessica, One Knot, etc) are not idiots, not retro, and not fools.

You go sail what you like but stop slinging **** in our direction.

Canberra schools and clubs (and many people's garages) are full of Wallies. Every Canberra school has a trailer of dusty old Wallies parked in the basement covered in cobwebs. If Canberra shows you something, it should be that teaching with Wallies failed. When something doesn't work, it's a good idea to move to something that does. Most people have a better time learning on other gear. Learning on Wallies isn't as easy and the progress isn't as quick. Alex is too young and small to learn on a Wally so I would have had to wait a few more years to teach him. His 7 year old little sister Elli is already planning in the harness and footstraps. How many 7 year olds have done that on a Wally? I think it's you who is being arrogant and stubborn. Just because you like sailing Wallies, doesn't mean that it's a good idea. Why do you keep persisting trying to ram them down everyone's throat as a good teaching option when they are clearly not. No one wants to stop you riding them but I think you are steering people in the wrong direction. Times have changed and equipment has improved. You are becoming like a vintage car enthusiast when it is safer to learn in a new car with ABS and air bags. Just because people have started with Wallies and done very well doesn't mean they wouldn't have done better if they'd started with something else. Your other argument about Wallies being better in some locations is also false. There is appropriate modern gear for every location and conditions. Many triangle type World Champions started on Wallies but that's not the case for those succeeding at the PWA. Re moving house and going to the Caribbean, I am not the only windsurfer in this country who has travelled to other locations - you have just moved to Wally heaven! I recommend a 110 litre freestyle board with a 6 metre sail with battens. [}:)] You used to be the editor of a windsurfing mag and at the cutting edge of the sport 30 years ago - when I saw you a couple of years ago at Gerroa you were using a wave board that is older than your Wally - and you reckon you're not retro... If not retro, then what's before retro?

KA360 said...

Chris 249 said...

KA360 said...

Chris 249 said...
Sure, but we're not telling all windsurfers to sail them. All we are doing, basically, is asking for people to stop bagging them out.

That's funny coming from someone who uses a wally rig
But I know that bagging them out is how you race tune your wally.

Seriously thought,I am a stickler for newbies (and those returning to the sport) to learn to windsurf correctly,progress quickly and have an enjoyable experience.I don't believe the wally is a good choice for learning on or inspiring the next generation.The wally is a specialist board and has its place and those who have mastered riding them should be fully respected,but if you ever again recommend then to beginers I will be forced to make fun of you retro guys.

Yeah, and moving to Canberra showed me just how effective that style of teaching and windsurfing has been at promoting the sport.... there's almost no one here. I've seen no more than three people out, apart from when we get 5-11 Wallies.

Yes, Alex is doing very well. However, not many families are in a position to go to the Caribbean and then move house so their kids can sail. And many kids (both Youth Worlds reps last year, etc) have started in Wallies and done very well.

I'm not retro - this year I (once again) competed in the very first national titles for a new discipline. It's just that for some conditions, some older gear works very very well.

Stop being so bloody arrogant about this - we (people like Doug, Jessica, One Knot, etc) are not idiots, not retro, and not fools.

You go sail what you like but stop slinging **** in our direction.

Canberra schools and clubs (and many people's garages) are full of Wallies. Every Canberra school has a trailer of dusty old Wallies parked in the basement covered in cobwebs. If Canberra shows you something, it should be that teaching with Wallies failed. When something doesn't work, it's a good idea to move to something that does. Most people have a better time learning on other gear. Learning on Wallies isn't as easy and the progress isn't as quick. Alex is too young and small to learn on a Wally so I would have had to wait a few more years to teach him. His 7 year old little sister Elli is already planning in the harness and footstraps. How many 7 year olds have done that on a Wally? I think it's you who is being arrogant and stubborn. Just because you like sailing Wallies, doesn't mean that it's a good idea. Why do you keep persisting trying to ram them down everyone's throat as a good teaching option when they are clearly not. No one wants to stop you riding them but I think you are steering people in the wrong direction. Times have changed and equipment has improved. You are becoming like a vintage car enthusiast when it is safer to learn in a new car with ABS and air bags. Just because people have started with Wallies and done very well doesn't mean they wouldn't have done better if they'd started with something else. Your other argument about Wallies being better in some locations is also false. There is appropriate modern gear for every location and conditions. Many triangle type World Champions started on Wallies but that's not the case for those succeeding at the PWA. Re moving house and going to the Caribbean, I am not the only windsurfer in this country who has travelled to other locations - you have just moved to Wally heaven! I recommend a 110 litre freestyle board with a 6 metre sail with battens. [}:)] You used to be the editor of a windsurfing mag and at the cutting edge of the sport 30 years ago - when I saw you a couple of years ago at Gerroa you were using a wave board that is older than your Wally - and you reckon you're not retro... If not retro, then what's before retro?

I'm not shoving anything down anyone's throats. I am responding to people who try to tell others what they should sail, and what they should encourage.

This thread was about someone asking a particular question and then MRRT leapt in and started bagging what other people like as if he was the only person who knows anything. That's when some of us started saying that we had the right to enjoy what we like.

I was using an old waveboard last time I saw you because I do a lot of different things (racing cutting-edge yachts, catamarans, an inaugural bike nationals, etc etc etc) and gave up wavesailing until I dragged that gear out. The day before, I was using brand-new wave gear and tbh I didn't see that it was a vast improvement.

It's not like we are advocating vintage cars, because the gear we are advocating is faster a lot of the time, has a lighter and simpler rig, is cheaper and has level competition for racers. Those are things that other gear (while fantastic in many ways) cannot offer.

As you said, there were lots of boards in Canberra years ago. Then the industry started bagging them (I was there at the team dinners for F2, it was a specific marketing strategy) and now we are where we at, when there are very few boards.
If widestyle is so much better in all situations then where are the sailors on them in light wind locations? As you said, if something doesn't work then we should move on. We have been obsessing about putting everyone onto small boards for years and it has not worked - just as Svein says!

The wide boards are fantastic for many people, no doubt about it, and if we had moved to the 'Gong instead of the ACT I would be out looking for new wave gear (as I will still do after putting my bucks into the boats and light wind boards). But as in just about every comparable sport, different gear works for different people in different places.

All I am asking is for people to stop slinging **** at those of us who like longboards and who have shown that people can be introduced to the sport in that way and become fanatics about it.

By the way, I got out of Wallies when I was about 19 to get into D2s, "Pan Ams" and shortboards and never really touched one for about 20 years. Then my wife started windsurfing with a uni club that had Wallies and I got involved. It was then that I became involved with the class. So it was not a case of a retrodude hanging onto Wallies all these years - it was a fresh mind being shown that they worked very well in some situations.

Mobydisc said...
Even back in around 1983 when I learned to windsurf it was not on a wally. I learned on a TC Beacher, which had more volume and stability compared to a wally.

Sure some people can learn on a wally, some people can learn on a wave board. However in the end getting someone who has never windsurfed before and doesn't know the first thing about sailing, it would be better to teach them on something like a Starboard Start or RRD Easyrider, which are incredibly stable, have a soft deck that doesn't graze the skin, and will easily float someone who weighs more than 120kgs in about 1 knot of wind.

Sure they may not go upwind as well as a wally or other longboards but racing isn't what they are about. They are about making an introduction to windsurfing as easy and pain free as it can possibly be.

All of that could very well be very true.

However, none of those points apply to the situation some of us are in. We don't have access to the wide boards and their rigs. We tend to teach people who already know how to sail*. We don't teach 120kg people. We are not just into racing but we are into it, and (more importantly) we are also into being able to cruise around places like the upper ends of Sydney harbour or around Pittwater in all conditions, where a short wide board really, really struggles.

Some of us also like using longboards with light rigs because of our own personal preferences. I've done the whole BAF/slalom stuff (up to being =17 at a world slalom title) and it's fantastic but it doesn't do it for me these days.

All we are saying is that if you are a racing-oriented volunteer setup in a light-wind area with limited space or if you want to sail in light winds or across all winds on one board, the longboard is a very, very good setup FOR YOUR SITUATION. That's why, as I keep on saying time and time again, we agree that widestyle boards are fantastic for many, many people and many, many places. I've never said that for someone doing the sailing you do (AIUI) that they should learn or sail on a longboard, for example.


* although some non-sailors we have taught are now madly into it and own boats as well as boards.

I don't get the hate thing period, whether it's wallys, kites, racing - anything. I love a good ribbing, but the vitriol in this and other topics is disturbing. As the French say: "Viva la difference"

Chris 249 said...
At Dobroyd, Techno 293 widestyle boards are about 2/3 as fast as a Wally and struggle to get upwind. Why do you want to make the sport so slow and expensive to people who sail in such areas? Why do you want them to have to pull up a sail 2kg heavier?

We are mainly talking about ease of learning, not performance, but...

...Perhaps the problem is you are comparing a huge 205 litre wideboard with a Wally? Our learner boards are 160 and 180 litres and the JP Funster 160 in particular can go like the clappers upwind with a sail matched to the conditions - it is ABSOLUTELY faster and far more controllable than our old Wallys. We also have a selection of 120L and 130L boards, right down to 85L wave boards some of which were donated by our local windsurfing shop (thanks Reg at WSP!) or loaned by leaders that help tremendously with campers making quick progress.

I'm not sure why a modern learner sail would be heavier than the decades old Wally sail and rig? Our cheap sails and rigs are nice and lightweight (though we need to get newer lighter weight masts) and we also have a few nice and modern beautifully, lightweight learner sails as well as a large mishmash of old donated wave sails of various sizes for those campers who progress to the bigger stuff during camp.

Anyway, I'm sorry that I've hurt the feelings of those who enjoy the old gear. I was just so shocked at the difference that modern learner gear made in our situation it made me a bit angry at myself for foisting wallys and the like on so many years of campers prior to our equipment upgrade.

I do respect your love of that ancient tech and wish you no ill, I'm just sorry that you would probably have had even more learners stick with the sport if you had more modern gear.

In my case, I've been learning the art of finally letting go of a lot of our old crappy stuff and with a bit of fund-raising and kind donors and a fantastically visionary Windsurfing camp director (onya Giulio!) we've been experiencing a real renaissance in windsurfing enthusiasm and takeup across the board. Just wanting to share a bit of that vision I guess.

No hard feelings!

-Martin H

Those pics just seem to underline how completely different your conditions are (which is what I have been trying to say all along) and therefore how completely different the best gear can be. I've always said that in open water like that, which has much more chop than we see unless it's 25 knots and straight down the lake or bay (which is rare) widestyle boards are the best. And with a long beach like that, other problems we find with widestyle boards don't apply.

I never said widestyle boards were slow in general, because they CAN be fast - I always said that they were slow IN OUR NORMAL CONDITIONS. This has been proved by about 8 years of racing by people from noobs to world champs in RSX 8.5, RSX 9.5, Prodigy 8.5 and unlimited, and various Techno rigs. As another example, at the 2011 One Hour Race in MElbourne, a Wally won and beat the first short board by two laps in 10. The short boards included SUPs, Techno, and various wide beginners boards loaned by retailers etc, using sails as big as 8.5m. Last time a Wally took on the Raceboards at my old club it was a super-gusty 25 knots on a very short course and the Wally top scored for the day ahead of a former Raceboard national champ and the guy who was 3rd in the Raceboard Masters Worlds.

In medium conditions the Wally is slow to very slow, no doubt about it.

In YOUR conditions, the boards you use are no doubt normally faster. In OUR conditions, there is proof that they are often (most of the time, in fact) slower. I agree that speed is NOT the only issue, but if you are sailing where we sail light wind speed is important in keeping beginners going. It's also something that windsurfers DO tend to emphasise, and the fact that Wallies can do well underlines that designs haven't progressed in all directions.

We get people on 4.5s tacking and gybing the first day, normally. Even my mother in law got it within an hour or so. Our dead flat water helps, but also we HAVE to get them tacking and gybing because they can't walk along the "beach" easily.

You ask why a Wally sail is lighter than a modern sail - that's easy. It's because it only has one very short full batten and two short battens, and battens weigh a lot. I just weighed an old one at 2.209kg - it's heavier than usual because it's been patched. The 4.5s we use for most beginners are about 1.5-1.6kg. For little kids, the modern ultralight rigs work best.

Compare that to the similar size (6m) Hot Sails Maui sails (3.9 to 5.1kg), 3.33kg for an Ezzy Legacy 5.8, 4.12 for a Cheetah 6m.

One of the other clubs in NSW starts people on wide boards (they have easier conditions for widestyle) but then moves them to longboards. Again, a different location has created a different approach.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm and wishes, I can only repeat that we sail in different conditions and different stuff works in different places, as in every comparable sport. If I lived where you do, I'd teach on what you sail, but I don't.

Oh and with these modern boards it is amazing just how young they can start learning (that's my daughter just after turning 4 years old):



Notice how flat and light it was on The Pond at Safety Bay that day? The sail is a cut down handkerchief and the mast a piece of 20mm aluminium tube.

There's no way she'd be doing that on a Wally.

Yes a lot of angst as you say.
Strange, like pent up emotions.
Whatever happened to the old live and let live...

Since I had replied to the original question, back to the angry tangent.

I taught on all gear from old planks to round-shaped Gos, to a large round SUP lately. Also on a widish board last year. The right students get going (not holding a 3-meter sail in zero knot, but actually going) in about the same time. The % of those making it to the sport is about the same in all cases, though prob. was much higher in the old days on the uglier boards, as there were millions sailing then.

The amount of fun people have whilst learning seems to be unrelated to the gear.

Peace out.

It's sad that we can't call a spade a spade without being accused of insulting some of our Olympians and National Champions. Chris, I don't believe that you are their spokesman. If they feel strongly about this, I'm sure they are able to speak for themselves.

We are talking about a board! A piece of equipment! I don't know why some people have a soft spot for it but that's not really the issue. The Wally is not a sacred relic, just a part of Windsurfing's history. Technology has advanced and we are lucky to have better options today.

The inventor of windsurfing said this about the wide-style board: "Yes, we thought it would revolutionize racing, and it has. But it also has revolutionized teaching and entry level sailing. Both of us (Drake and Svein) are very pleased that this revolution has been adopted by almost all manufacturers now, to the great benefit of windsurfing as a whole.

If you have to ride a Wally or it has sentimental value to you then go right ahead. It's your choice and not forced on you by the conditions. NSW has plenty of coast line and lakes that allow us to plane.

Also, I learnt to Windsurf in Canberra and lived there almost all my life and I have been having a great time windsurfing with modern gear. Most of us in Canberra have not needed or wanted to use a Wally. I taught my wife and 2 children to windsurf and the majority of their windsurfing was done on Lake Burley Griffin. So Chris, I can definitely speak for "your" conditions. I know all about them.

There is no reason to handicap beginners by foisting the Wally onto them.

paddymac said...

Looking back they managed to get a lot of things right. Maybe we need to occasionally ask ourselves what made them so bloody popular and why, with all our technical advancement, is windsurfing now a niche sport? I'm not saying we should go back to the eighties, just try and learn what made it such a magic period.

Just because the sport was popular in the eighties doesn't mean that the Wally was the reason. It's because Windsurfing was new and is an inspiring, awesome sport and lifestyle. It would have more of a chance if people taught others to windsurf on a decent board. Those of us who learnt in the eighties had to use the Wally but I'm happy to say that is no longer the case and I was able to give my kids a much better experience and I didn't have to wait until they were teenagers. They are ripping right NOW ;)

It may interest you to hear more from Jim Drake himself:

"From the start I held the view that windsurfing competition (and recreation) was the liquid version of skiing where technology is selected by the participant and driven by performance with regulation held as close to zero as possible. Yet windsurfing accepted sponsorship on the world stage by the regulatory prone IOC and IYRU. I believe that it was a mistake to accept one-design and the Olympic triangle as a condition of entry. Access to the deep well of inovation that was responsible for the creation of windsurfing in the first place was blocked for this premier event. Windsurfing allowed itself to become just another boring elitest yacht race. To use a contemporary phrase, windsurfing shot itself in the foot on that one.

"It can be argued that after one of the largest world wide promotions of a new sport (selfserving to be sure), the Olympics effectively killed windsurfing's growth; participation leveled two years later. Even the patent's expiration could not reverse the trend.

"Fortunately, windsurfing is what windsurfers are -- not the reverse. Windsurfers at all skill levels know the wisdom of encouraging the kind of inovation that brought them the sport they love. And even more so at the pinnacles of competition, the PWA World Tour and the Olympics. Introducing the Formula concept, that is, allowing competetors and organizers the widest latitude in the choice of equipment and course, will energize the event itself and the sport as a whole as no other action can.