sboardcrazy said...

on Monday the board has been more of an issue than the sails lately..think I need a smaller fin.The board doesnt misbehave I just find the chop tiring ..or is that normal?

if it's windy enough to be out on a 4.2, then there's chop as well. speeding and gybing on really rough chop calls for concentration and leg work; i find my fitness quickly comes into the equation...but improves every sail. in the picture above you look as if you're handling it fine.

After losing 10 kegs I know for sure that my internal sail size calculator is way off... I keep getting overcooked on what I would normally be fine on.

Whether that translates into sail range, not sure.

As others have said, it's most likely the mast/sail compatibility that's the main problem here.

yeah i had a similar sensation just recently.

went out on a 4.7 in 40+ knots when i should have picked the 4.2 or smaller..... i was overcooked.

it's all relative at the end of the day. weight versus sail versus board etc.

i reckon for us average joe's and joette's pick the smallest sail you can get away with.

Gestalt said...

yeah i had a similar sensation just recently.

went out on a 4.7 in 40+ knots when i should have picked the 4.2 or smaller..... i was overcooked.

it's all relative at the end of the day. weight versus sail versus board etc.

i reckon for us average joe's and joette's pick the smallest sail you can get away with.

Me too Gesti, 4.5m - only managed 2 runs on Sunday before retiring; have to pick up a cheap smaller sail for those rare days.

decrepit said...

I agree with mast size and stiffness, lighter sailors are better on softer masts.
Of course there's always how you rig the sail.
Too flat will limit the bottom end, too baggy without enough twist will limit the top end.

I've found a few uncamned big sails that just don't work with my 70kg no matter how I set them.
They are too flat at low wind speeds, even with -ve outhaul and the centre of effort is forward. As the wind picks up the sail starts to fill out and get power and shape, but the centre of effort moves back. So the sail hasn no bottom end and is very unstable over the wind range I want to use it in. For somebody over 90kg, this isn't a problem, as they are using it in a higher wind range, where the sail has reached it's full shape.

I think a lot of sail testers are heavy guys, they're fine with sails that need a bit of force to take shape.
But if you're light, you need sails that turn on early!
In other words when they're rigged on the beach, you should be able to put a little bit of weight on the window around the harness lines and the sail should fill out fully. the luff sleave should be tight around the boom. If there is any loose sail the shape will move backwards as the wind increases, giving poor bottom end and unstable top end.

This could be a greater cause of your problem than the mast, I'm not familiar with your sails.

Hmm interesting thought cause I always thought that the sail testers were light weights.

sboardcrazy said...

Here it is on land..

What? You have your own pit crew? Luxury!!! :)

You can see the leech has a degree of flop here, although it doesn't really show up unless the mast is curved under pressure. I sail quasi-race sails so our leechs are usually very sloppy compared to what I see here. If your sail is rigged to maximum downhaul and that's the extent that your leech is falling away, the posters are probably onto something with regards to a potentially mismatched mast.

I think you might have a bit of a mast mismatch issue. I find that my 4.2, which doesn't get used too often, is the most sensitive to the mast I use. With the stiffer 400 19 it feels quite twitchy, even with heaps of downhaul, and quite a narrow range. But with a softer 380 17 it is much more comfortable, just as powerful with the same downhaul, bigger range especially in gusts and more "absorbant" - not spongy as such, but perhaps "forgiving" might be a better term. At 70 kg I think I'm more in the lightweight category.
More downhaul on a too stiff mast might help a bit, but I'd try to borrow a shorter, softer mast and see how that goes. Too much downhaul is just as likely to choke the sail which won't help with range anyhow. It'll just feel powerless and unresponsive.

Not sure about Sailworks, but at the NP rigging clinics with the designers and testers (Micah is a big guy, though not massive and Pieter is 80kg and short for a Dutch guy), the key to adjusting downhaul was on where the second bottom batten sat on the mast. For the Alpha/Atlas, they wanted it to be level with the front of the mast with before outhaul was applied.
That resulted in a lot more downhaul than I had been using, and a lot more leech twist than your sail is showing.
I have applied that in the few sails I've had since then, with pleasing results.

Hey Sue, I discovered something the other day with my rigging. I chose to use my new-to-me 7.5 Ezzy Freeride for the first time. I downhauled it according to spec, it looked OK. Attached the boom, layed the sail on the ground and pushed down on the fat end of the mast so the tip was raised pivoting from the boom on the ground. I then saw that there was bugger all flop in the first two battens as described in the instructions. So I downhauled it some more and there they were, just as the book sez but using more downhaul than recommended. My mast is an old ART 460, size as recommended but not an Ezzy.

Took the sail out and it felt fabulous up to 18 knots (max wind for the arvo), balanced, light and harness lines set near perfectly, I fell in love. It felt great, a bit more tweaking and it'll be even better...if I don't confuse myself in the process. Pity it was too gusty but feel in the gusts felt awesome.

It got me thinking, why hasn't my KA 6.4 Kult feel as good? KA recommends a 460 as an "alternative" to a 430, which I haven't got. So I've been using the ART 460. Next time I use it I'm going to give it a shirtload more downhaul, I reckon that's been my problem. Others on this list opened my eyes to this. What is said on the printed spec doesn't necessarily mean it'll be correct...especially if you don't use the same brand mast! I'm keen to try out the theory on the KA as it feels quite good but now know it can be better!

I suggest, next time you rig your most used sail, do as I did and lay the rigged sail on the ground, push the fat end down and then take a pic so others can see how the top of the sail lays. There are other things like pressing down on certain parts of the sail which I haven't understood yet, but the former would be a good starting point for analysis I reckon.

sboardcrazy said...

I was happy before I knew I needed to spend more $ & get another mast.. imagine how the 3.3m sets on it!

That sail setting looks like a good amount of downhaul to me. Perhaps it had a bit too much outhaul? It looks very flat when powered up, so would feel twitchy.
I'd also check the bottom batten tension, it's hard to see but it might have a big wrinkle near the mast. You can fix this up with a couple of turns of an allen key

As 174 suggested, have you tried a smaller fin? That might be a fair bit cheaper than a new mast

For reference I use a 23.5 cm wave fin with my 4.5m sail. A 4.2 would use a smaller fin again.

nebbian said...

sboardcrazy said...

I was happy before I knew I needed to spend more $ & get another mast.. imagine how the 3.3m sets on it!

That sail setting looks like a good amount of downhaul to me. Perhaps it had a bit too much outhaul? It looks very flat when powered up, so would feel twitchy.
I'd also check the bottom batten tension, it's hard to see but it might have a big wrinkle near the mast. You can fix this up with a couple of turns of an allen key

As 174 suggested, have you tried a smaller fin? That might be a fair bit cheaper than a new mast

For reference I use a 23.5 cm wave fin with my 4.5m sail. A 4.2 would use a smaller fin again.

I thought it needed to be flat when you were overpowered..?
My fin is 30cms..I need a smaller one..grr I just gave away an unused smaller wave fin when I sold my Hifly! Now I need it..

sailing in the slalom comp last summer at south beach on a 5.0m in winds from 25 to 35 knots i got hammered. i could not gybe at all,it took me 30 minutes to finish first slalom course of 4 short legs! i could not even sail around the pier to get back to carpark as wind in late afternoon picked up to 35 knots plus,an absolute dog of a day.

bought tushingham rock 3.3m and 370 x6 mast[should have bought 340] and small 145-185 carbon boom.

few days later 2 days of wind gusting up to 33 knots,sailing on same board + fin i used at south beach i was only slightly overpowered when 30 plus knots hit.

gybing was a million times easier and i could sail comfortably for hours without getting tired, heaven!

did own a 3.7m race sail previous,but that size for me is too powerful in the really strong stuff. 3.3m is next size down for me to 5.0m.

25 fin and 80 litre board i find are small enough, going smaller is little benefit.

it's sail size that counts for lightweights, now i love sailing in 25/35 knot seabreezes!