Silly foil setups

PTM1001 is worth trying, it's faster with a lot more glide than the 926

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YellowHelmet said..

utcminusfour said..
I imagine the leviathans would fit on your fuse.
M8 is required.
At my size I know from firsthand experience that would it not be stiff or stout enough front wing connection. You may be fine at 75kg.
If you can uphaul and slog around on the Wizard 114 I reckon it would work fine. The foils are easy to turn and handle but you need enough float and stability to handle really light lulls with chop.
You may not need as much foil as I am using.
Your right it would be good to have an app that could help wade through all the options.
At the moment I am enjoying the challenge of exploring a design space that doesn't come with instructions.

I was thinking about Leviathan 1150 or Leviathan Pro 1260 + M6/M8 washers.

Also saw PTM999 and PTM1001 (are there even bigger HA Slingshot foils ?). Anyone experience with these foils for low wind in addition to PTM926.

I heard some brands (like Duotone) stop warranty with spans bigger than 100 cm.

So better not go to wide as well for turning.

Would the stress on the long carbon mast W103 be to stong ? I could use my old Hover Glide 90 cm with connector piece.

Slogging and uphailing sail on Wizard 114 liter is no problem for me at 75 kg, but I notice and friends say the rear of my board is low in the water creating drag.

It is the connection at the front wing that is weakest link with the compatible Sab and Slingshot options. Your mast will be fine.
I would strongly advise against using M6 bolts, you want to drill and tap or drill and add inserts to your fuse so you can use M8 screws.
I would recommend that upgrade even if you don't go for a bigger wing. Take it into a metal shop and have them do it if you not interested in DYI. The bigger screws are more forgiving and tolerant of sand and cross threading not to mention a lot stronger.
I have no experience with the Leviathan or PTM but the Leviathan are higher aspect.

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YellowHelmet said..

utcminusfour said..

YellowHelmet said..

utcminusfour said..
I imagine the leviathans would fit on your fuse.
M8 is required.
At my size I know from firsthand experience that would it not be stiff or stout enough front wing connection. You may be fine at 75kg.
If you can uphaul and slog around on the Wizard 114 I reckon it would work fine. The foils are easy to turn and handle but you need enough float and stability to handle really light lulls with chop.
You may not need as much foil as I am using.
Your right it would be good to have an app that could help wade through all the options.
At the moment I am enjoying the challenge of exploring a design space that doesn't come with instructions.

I was thinking about Leviathan 1150 or Leviathan Pro 1260 + M6/M8 washers.

Also saw PTM999 and PTM1001 (are there even bigger HA Slingshot foils ?). Anyone experience with these foils for low wind in addition to PTM926.

I heard some brands (like Duotone) stop warranty with spans bigger than 100 cm.

So better not go to wide as well for turning.

Would the stress on the long carbon mast W103 be to stong ? I could use my old Hover Glide 90 cm with connector piece.

Slogging and uphailing sail on Wizard 114 liter is no problem for me at 75 kg, but I notice and friends say the rear of my board is low in the water creating drag.

It is the connection at the front wing that is weakest link with the compatible Sab and Slingshot options. Your mast will be fine.
I would strongly advise against using M6 bolts, you want to drill and tap or drill and add inserts to your fuse so you can use M8 screws.
I would recommend that upgrade even if you don't go for a bigger wing. Take it into a metal shop and have them do it if you not interested in DYI. The bigger screws are more forgiving and tolerant of sand and cross threading not to mention a lot stronger.
I have no experience with the Leviathan or PTM but the Leviathan are higher aspect.

Does this mean drilling through the fuselage and then treading, or can it be treaded without drilling through the fuselage. I have a threading set but this gear is for threading an open hole.

Once upgraded to M8 how do you fix the old PTM or PFI foils of Slingshot. Is it needed to make a tapered wider hole in the Slingshot frontfoils ?

The fact that you have taps and understand they are for open holes means you absolutely can do this.
The time for a machinist to do it is less than an hour so less than a new fuse. Either way it is a good thing to do and many of us on this forum have made this mod.

These are commonly available tools, but they are specific types of taps. Drill with the supplied bit, or be very certain you have the exact diameter bit required. Measure the depth of the hole and mark that depth on the bit with tape as a guide. Start threading with a "starting" tap. It has a taper on the tip with several lead-in threads. Like the name implies, it's designed to make starting easy and straight. It is likely that a starting tap is what you already own. Then use a "bottoming" tap. Its tip is much less tapered, and the threads go almost all the way to the end. This tap will cut threads nearly to the bottom of the hole.

Helicoil inserts are another route you can look into. They come with good instructions and often installation videos. Same steps really. I have struggled with the inserts. There is a length of the wire that is used to hold and install the insert that is designed to be hammered out and I sometimes can't get that out. Usually, I can get full thread engagement and just leave it.

The wings are easy. Drill with a normal M8 clearance bit. Then enlarge the tapered hole with a 90-degree countersink. Go slow and keep testing with the fastener until it sits flush with the wing.

If you botch tapping, you can still use inserts because there o.d. is bigger, the inserts can be replaced. If you botch the inserts a machine shop can still bail you out.

I know this stuff from experience; I broke, bent, cross threaded and stripped a bunch of M6 wing bolts before the industry acknowledged that M6 is too small.


Amazon.com: Aceteel M8 X 1.25 Metric Hand Tap, Right Hand M8 X 1.25mm Threading Hand Tap 1Pair : Industrial & Scientific

Vouyar Cobalt Steel Single End Countersink Drill Bit with Cobalt Coating Finish for Hard Metal Wood, 90 Degree M35 HSS, 8MM Round Shank, 14MM Body Diameter - Amazon.com

Amazon.com: fixinus 30 Piece M8 x 1.25mm Thread Repair Insert Kit, Stainless Steel Thread Repair Kit Helicoil Coil Compatible Hand Tool Set for Auto Repair : Automotive

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Grantmac said..
I think for a lightweight rider using wings under 1m and not jumping a quality M6 is fine. I'm far from light and never had an issue.
I'd definitely do helicoils or possibly Chicago nuts if going M8

Given those constraints I agree it's probably fine. Nonetheless M8 are better choice and it's an easy upgrade. YellowHelmet is considering wings over a meter so my comments are relevant.

Select to expand quote

YellowHelmet said..

utcminusfour said..

YellowHelmet said..

utcminusfour said..

YellowHelmet said..

utcminusfour said..
I imagine the leviathans would fit on your fuse.
M8 is required.
At my size I know from firsthand experience that would it not be stiff or stout enough front wing connection. You may be fine at 75kg.
If you can uphaul and slog around on the Wizard 114 I reckon it would work fine. The foils are easy to turn and handle but you need enough float and stability to handle really light lulls with chop.
You may not need as much foil as I am using.
Your right it would be good to have an app that could help wade through all the options.
At the moment I am enjoying the challenge of exploring a design space that doesn't come with instructions.

I was thinking about Leviathan 1150 or Leviathan Pro 1260 + M6/M8 washers.

Also saw PTM999 and PTM1001 (are there even bigger HA Slingshot foils ?). Anyone experience with these foils for low wind in addition to PTM926.

I heard some brands (like Duotone) stop warranty with spans bigger than 100 cm.

So better not go to wide as well for turning.

Would the stress on the long carbon mast W103 be to stong ? I could use my old Hover Glide 90 cm with connector piece.

Slogging and uphailing sail on Wizard 114 liter is no problem for me at 75 kg, but I notice and friends say the rear of my board is low in the water creating drag.

It is the connection at the front wing that is weakest link with the compatible Sab and Slingshot options. Your mast will be fine.
I would strongly advise against using M6 bolts, you want to drill and tap or drill and add inserts to your fuse so you can use M8 screws.
I would recommend that upgrade even if you don't go for a bigger wing. Take it into a metal shop and have them do it if you not interested in DYI. The bigger screws are more forgiving and tolerant of sand and cross threading not to mention a lot stronger.
I have no experience with the Leviathan or PTM but the Leviathan are higher aspect.

Does this mean drilling through the fuselage and then treading, or can it be treaded without drilling through the fuselage. I have a threading set but this gear is for threading an open hole.

Once upgraded to M8 how do you fix the old PTM or PFI foils of Slingshot. Is it needed to make a tapered wider hole in the Slingshot frontfoils ?

The fact that you have taps and understand they are for open holes means you absolutely can do this.
The time for a machinist to do it is less than an hour so less than a new fuse. Either way it is a good thing to do and many of us on this forum have made this mod.

These are commonly available tools, but they are specific types of taps. Drill with the supplied bit, or be very certain you have the exact diameter bit required. Measure the depth of the hole and mark that depth on the bit with tape as a guide. Start threading with a "starting" tap. It has a taper on the tip with several lead-in threads. Like the name implies, it's designed to make starting easy and straight. It is likely that a starting tap is what you already own. Then use a "bottoming" tap. Its tip is much less tapered, and the threads go almost all the way to the end. This tap will cut threads nearly to the bottom of the hole.

Helicoil inserts are another route you can look into. They come with good instructions and often installation videos. Same steps really. I have struggled with the inserts. There is a length of the wire that is used to hold and install the insert that is designed to be hammered out and I sometimes can't get that out. Usually, I can get full thread engagement and just leave it.

The wings are easy. Drill with a normal M8 clearance bit. Then enlarge the tapered hole with a 90-degree countersink. Go slow and keep testing with the fastener until it sits flush with the wing.

If you botch tapping, you can still use inserts because there o.d. is bigger, the inserts can be replaced. If you botch the inserts a machine shop can still bail you out.

I know this stuff from experience; I broke, bent, cross threaded and stripped a bunch of M6 wing bolts before the industry acknowledged that M6 is too small.


Amazon.com: Aceteel M8 X 1.25 Metric Hand Tap, Right Hand M8 X 1.25mm Threading Hand Tap 1Pair : Industrial & Scientific

Vouyar Cobalt Steel Single End Countersink Drill Bit with Cobalt Coating Finish for Hard Metal Wood, 90 Degree M35 HSS, 8MM Round Shank, 14MM Body Diameter - Amazon.com

Amazon.com: fixinus 30 Piece M8 x 1.25mm Thread Repair Insert Kit, Stainless Steel Thread Repair Kit Helicoil Coil Compatible Hand Tool Set for Auto Repair : Automotive

Thanks for these detailled instructions. Now I understand.

I need special flat headed drills and taps not to drill throught the fuselage.

But I wonder if drilling and tapping throught the fuse would make it less aquadynamic, weaker or make a stronger connection because of the longer thread.

I'm not familiar with helicoils but I could use them if things go wrong. But when using helicoils for M8 the diameter of the hole will be much bigger. Will this bigger hole not weaken the fuselage ?

Yes, valid concern you want to keep as much meat as you can. Don't drill deeper than the original holes. Helicoils (the ones in the link above) are a small diameter increase, so it has not been an issue for me. They are a brilliant design; it's basically a spring but instead of round cross section its flat plate that mates perfectly with a slightly bigger thread than the size you need.

I know you can reach your goals with wingspan and more recent wing designs. I have confidence in that because I have first-hand experience doing it to reach similar goals but at a much higher rider weight. How much do you need at your size and will it be strong enough at your size I don't have that as hard data. Will it be stiff enough? I can answer that, no! But that's an important discussion for another day.

All these decisions we are discussing are both your responsibility and your opportunity to improve your gear. As freeride windfoilers we are the fringe of a fringe sport, sometimes you have to take some risks to move forward. We just don't have numbers and that's why this forum is so important and why I want to share what has and has not worked for me. Keep us in the loop on the progress and as always, I am glad answer any questions that are in my realm of experience.

Cheers mate!

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YellowHelmet said..


I understand 100 % : if I break or bend the fuselage I send you the bill.

By the way concerning the depth of the screw holes for the front wing : when I installed the PTM926 for the first time I immediately saw some holes are deeper than some of the screws. First without reading the manual I used the longest screws 30 mm for the outside screws and 25 mm in the middle thinking this would counteract best the leverage forces on the foil. Then I read the manual saying from the leading edge 30 mm, 30 mm and 25 mm, and I changed it that way. But I don't understand fully. I would think the deepest screws fitting the hole are strongest.

As the fastener gets deeper the threads get less and less effective at doing anything, so there's a point of X diameters that you get marginal, if anything additional from more thread engagement. Depends on material, lubrication, etc. At some point it's "enough".

I think on phantasm that extra length is to get through the meat of the front wing so there's enough engagement in the fuse. On the back it's thinner so you don't need that long of a screw.

At 200 lb I have been using Moses/Sabfoil M6 for years with no problems. Sure, M8 is stronger, but I would hesitate to start drilling and tapping and cutting. Not worth it.

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utcminusfour said..
Or another option is to add a pump foil and skip the large board and sails.
I am at 196 kg and can takeoff in 10 knots and fly through less using a 5.1 meter freestyle sail.
For me I am finding it not just for the very lightest days.
It makes marginal days magic days! If there any waves or wakes you can ride them endlessly without sail power or use them to get flying in a lull.
It is the only foil set up I have tried that I can actually get to go upwind in winds less than 15 knots.
The low stall speed is a great tool for learning new maneuvers, it gives you more time an opportunity to finish the move.

Epic typo, I am 106 kg.

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WillyWind said..
Another option would be stainless steel "timesert" (goggle it). But it will be more expensive.

Looks good and strong.

I will keep it in mind as a second plan if the drilling and tapping fails.

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Hydrosurf said..
I think they make washers to allow m6 bolts in m8 holes. For sab wing to phantasm fuselage.

Right I have them.

Soon I will be testing these on a Sabfoil of a friend of mine.

I will let you know.

Select to expand quote

YellowHelmet said..

utcminusfour said..

utcminusfour said..
Or another option is to add a pump foil and skip the large board and sails.
I am at 196 kg and can takeoff in 10 knots and fly through less using a 5.1 meter freestyle sail.
For me I am finding it not just for the very lightest days.
It makes marginal days magic days! If there any waves or wakes you can ride them endlessly without sail power or use them to get flying in a lull.
It is the only foil set up I have tried that I can actually get to go upwind in winds less than 15 knots.
The low stall speed is a great tool for learning new maneuvers, it gives you more time an opportunity to finish the move.

Epic typo, I am 106 kg.

I thought so but I was reluctant to say so .

I'm a yank. Metric is my second language