Yes the double handed racing in Europe and now other parts of the world has exploded. I think there were 90 in the last Fastnet. Was a double handed boat winning the Fastnet about 7-8 years ago an eye opener for people? Good luck getting a JPK at the moment.
I agree with what you are saying and as long as there aren't rules and people want the boats designers and companies will do it. Let's face it it's yacht racing even if there are rules people will work around or just break them. Humans are competitive and will always try to win.
When you look at some of the French boats the X2 looks pretty conservative. It has foils that aren't in the pic and it's a canting keel.
I just don't see the logic in designing kelp catching keels! Especially canting ones like in the above photo. The recent accident 15 miles East of Wollongong is just inside the shelf is or used to be a popular fish trap ground that extends out past the 100 fathom line. 330m of 8mm polyprop with 6 to 10 bubbles is not going to break when one of these keels collects it at speed! With the recent heavy seas and even the floods there is all sorts of crap to get caught on apart from kelp.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
I just don't see the logic in designing kelp catching keels! Especially canting ones like in the above photo. The recent accident 15 miles East of Wollongong is just inside the shelf is or used to be a popular fish trap ground that extends out past the 100 fathom line. 330m of 8mm polyprop with 6 to 10 bubbles is not going to break when one of these keels collects it at speed! With the recent heavy seas and even the floods there is all sorts of crap to get caught on apart from kelp.
When it comes to racing, risk minimization seems to take a back seat. Money no object. (Web site quotes a price for a new one of these toys around one million dollars.)
When the general population finally realizes that fighting climate change means we all have to live more frugally, maybe racing yachts will become more practical, and designed to last.
Ran into a person with direct knowledge of what happened today and got the lowdown.
As regards the keel that fell.off examination of the wreck revealed that of the two main keel bolts one appears to have failed as it's hole was intact after the keel departed whereas the other hole was torn out.
As regards the EPIRB situation the boat had an EPIRB and both girls had personal EPIRBs. One girl was below as they were just changing shifts and she had taken her belt (to which the EPIRB was attached) off to effect a change of gear and was in the process of putting it back on again when the boat suddenly capsized. It was all she could do to get out of the boat without drowning. When they tried to grab the boats EPIRB from just inside the companionway later they couldn't grab it because diesel had mixed with water in the boat and they were coughing and spluttering and ingesting diesel water. The other girl activated her personal EPIRB but in the process of doing so the aerial snapped off. She thought it had sent a signal but in fact of course it could not. In the end the girls finally realised that one of them had an Apple watch and they made a phone call which alerted authorities.
They were unable to hang on to the sail drive as the boat was too slippery to climb up and spent most of the 15 hours hanging on to the remnants of some rudder mechanism at the transom.
Truly horrific and greatly fortuitous that they were saved by an Apple watch. Maybe Apple should advertise the fact and we should all be wearing Apple watches!
Oh yes and surprise surprise the insurance company is refusing to pay the claim for the owner. The grounds for refusal of claim are the most ridiculous I have ever heard of . Insurance companies are just scum and I don't know why any of us bother insuring our boats. It is the subject of litigation and therefore I won't comment further.
This months Afloat magazine has a small article on this accident. So far of the 3 investigations that were supposed to have taken place only one has started. It seems a report of the women being overdue might be more likely than the so called Apple phone version. The builder has changed the keel bolt set up so he has decided what the cause was. I will wait for an official report. There are a lot of things a bit sus here!
No idea why the keel fell off but insurance should be for accidents and natural disasters etc, warranties should be for faulty products or poor workmanship.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
This months Afloat magazine has a small article on this accident. So far of the 3 investigations that were supposed to have taken place only one has started. It seems a report of the women being overdue might be more likely than the so called Apple phone version. The builder has changed the keel bolt set up so he has decided what the cause was. I will wait for an official report. There are a lot of things a bit sus here!
I spoke to the girls father ( who is also a sailor) so I doubt that he would have got it wrong. However I was under the impression that Apple watches only worked when they were near an operating paired iPhone or at least a Wi-Fi source so that part I don't understand. Then again I don't have any Apple products much less a watch.
So when you spoke to the lady's father (also a sailor as you state which I would believe) was he and the two ladies involved under the agreed and approved understanding that you would post the whole private conversation onto a public forum? Expect not. Wake up mate for cripes sake.
I am honoured that you choose to "believe" one minor and almost irrelevant detail from my account.
Actually yes I did ask him the confidentiality question and that is why I did not publish the insurance company information which is the subject of legal proceedings.
There seems to be some strange misapprehension amongst some people that the public does not have a right to know about safety information or indeed quotations for marine work. If you had difficulty being rescued and your new boat fell apart would you seek to keep the reasons secret? I sure as hell hope not. I would consider that a conspiracy and quite negligent - right up there with past cigarette company tactics.
Precisely what would you consider confidential about this information? It is clearly in the public interest that all this information be disseminated just like it is in the public interest to disseminate information about all bad service providers and products in the marine field.
My valuable takeaway from this conversation (apart from avoiding extremely small root keels on extremely lightweight boats- as has already been discussed here) is to examine carefully how quickly you can deploy your boats EPIRB and whether this can be reliably automated and also be careful with the aerial on your personal EPIRB.
Select to expand quotejulesmoto said..
Yes I did ask the question and that is why I did not publish the insurance company information which is the subject of legal proceedings.
There seems to be some strange misapprehension amongst some people that the public does not have a right to know about safety information or indeed quotations for marine work. If you had difficulty being rescued and your new boat fell apart would you seek to keep the reasons secret? I sure as hell hope not. I would consider that a conspiracy and quite negligent - right up there with past cigarette company tactics.
Precisely what would you consider confidential about this information? It is clearly in the public interest that all this information be disseminated just like it is in the public interest to disseminate information about bad and service providers and products in the marine field.
I'll chime in here and say I appreciate the update Julesmoto.
R13, he has the familys ok mate and I personally am glad the community is sharing what they can.
I admire the Aus contingent in their huge volume of work making it a reality. I was a fan because of them really, but now I'm looking at the boat with a jaundiced eye.
Why that is.. the X2 is supposed to have the keel come off/go on without a shop doing it (transportable). And it's an offshore, shorthanded boat.
In that regard, the keel attachment should be more failsafe than normal.
After Googling I have discovered that there are waterprooof watches which have their own "eSims" which can make calls completely independently of Wi-Fi or nearby linked phones.
Thanks for the update.
They are so lucky! I can't imagine being inside a capsized boat with diesel.
Hope they are both OK and will keep sailing.
Know where your safety gear is and how to use it. ( Not saying they didn't).
At the end of the day when the **** really hits the fan there is no prep that will get you ready for those situations.Thats what we were told on one of the courses I did.
Unfortunately there have been some accidents over the last few years due to metal fasteners and fittings failing. Rubbish from China. Hopefully a company like Far would use quality fasteners and have checked them.
A friend and I were talking about this the other day. He has done numerous Fastnets. He is also a commercial photographer. He does lots of new constructions. He said in the construction industry as soon as there is an accident it gets sent to all sites.
For insurance, did they have a conversation with the insurance company and detail what they were doing? Or did they just get insurance for a sailboat.
I am doing this next week. Am I covered. I would think a program like that would be constantly in touch with the insurance company.
It sounds crazy in OZ.
So there seem to have been three points of failure contributing to this event:
1. Keel joint failure
2. Rapid leak of diesel fuel
3. PLB aerial failure
While this was a sporting activity surely it is also a Work Health and Safety issue. As others have pointed out, we all improve safety only if information is shared.
1. There is already considerable discussion and some information about the keel joint failure.
2. Why was there such a rapid and significant diesel spill? Was this a failure of fitted equipment, or a spill from portable diesel containers or another cause such as diesel in the bilge?
3. What were the circumstances of the PLB aerial failure? What brand of PLB was used and is the PLB manufacturer aware and investigating?
Select to expand quoteBushdog said..
So there seem to have been three points of failure contributing to this event:
1. Keel joint failure
2. Rapid leak of diesel fuel
3. PLB aerial failure
While this was a sporting activity surely it is also a Work Health and Safety issue. As others have pointed out, we all improve safety only if information is shared.
1. There is already considerable discussion and some information about the keel joint failure.
2. Why was there such a rapid and significant diesel spill? Was this a failure of fitted equipment, or a spill from portable diesel containers or another cause such as diesel in the bilge?
3. What were the circumstances of the PLB aerial failure? What brand of PLB was used and is the PLB manufacturer aware and investigating?
The Afloat article mentions the delays in the investigations are probably from a commercial point. Lots of vested interests here. The builder however has gone ahead and reverted to conventional keel attaching methods. He has not waited for any reports or reviews because he has to keep selling these boats.
Page 26 here.
flipbook.afloat.com.au/afloat-october-2022-no-390.html
Select to expand quotetarquin1 said..
For insurance, did they have a conversation with the insurance company and detail what they were doing? Or did they just get insurance for a sailboat.
I am doing this next week. Am I covered. I would think a program like that would be constantly in touch with the insurance company.
It sounds crazy in OZ.
Sorry the one thing that was mentioned when I asked the gentleman about confidentiality was details of legal proceedings between the owner and the insurance company as of course that is between the owner and the insurance company rather than his daughter.
It was rather remiss of me not to ask which brand of Epirb the girls were wearing but after the conversation took another turn I didn't come back to it and I am unlikely to be talking to him again anytime soon. Sorry
Normal marine insurance does not cover faulty design/manufacture/maintenance. Any claim would be against the manufacturer's product liability or warranty.
It is possible to engineer a reliable, robust, cassette system for the keel, however it would add weight, and I guess that is contrary to the concept of a racing boat.
Select to expand quotejulesmoto said..tarquin1 said..
For insurance, did they have a conversation with the insurance company and detail what they were doing? Or did they just get insurance for a sailboat.
I am doing this next week. Am I covered. I would think a program like that would be constantly in touch with the insurance company.
It sounds crazy in OZ.
Sorry the one thing that was mentioned when I asked the gentleman about confidentiality was details of legal proceedings between the owner and the insurance company as of course that is between the owner and the insurance company rather than his daughter.
It was rather remiss of me not to ask which brand of Epirb the girls were wearing but after the conversation took another turn I didn't come back to it and I am unlikely to be talking to him again anytime soon. Sorry
No dramas. It stood out to me as a keel issue would be relevant to owners of similar boats/similar construction, however a PLB with an aerial weakness would be relevant to thousands of other boat users.
Select to expand quoteYara said..
Normal marine insurance does not cover faulty design/manufacture/maintenance. Any claim would be against the manufacturer's product liability or warranty.
It is possible to engineer a reliable, robust, cassette system for the keel, however it would add weight, and I guess that is contrary to the concept of a racing boat.
I am pretty sure if you asked the girls if they would prefer a boat that was 50kgs heavier and the keel would stay on or the same boat they would take the 50 kg heavier boat.
Select to expand quotetarquin1 said..
Yes the double handed racing in Europe and now other parts of the world has exploded. I think there were 90 in the last Fastnet. Was a double handed boat winning the Fastnet about 7-8 years ago an eye opener for people? Good luck getting a JPK at the moment.
I agree with what you are saying and as long as there aren't rules and people want the boats designers and companies will do it. Let's face it it's yacht racing even if there are rules people will work around or just break them. Humans are competitive and will always try to win.
When you look at some of the French boats the X2 looks pretty conservative. It has foils that aren't in the pic and it's a canting keel.
The boat in the pic is a Mini, which are great boats for one thing but after 40 years are still only popular in one corner of the world.
The doublehanded racing that is exploding is in far more conventional boats than the Mini or the Farr. The doublehanders are sailing boats like J/105s, Sun Fasts etc. The Farr is, in some senses. trying to get into a scene that is successful partly BECAUSE the boats are fairly conservative, and beat them with a radical machine.
That seems a bit selfish to me. There are so few types doing well these days that surely we should be supporting and encouraging what works, rather than trying to make them all obsolete with a single-purpose machine.
It's odd that although the evidence is clear that the classes that are doing well are accessible (fairly cheap, not leading edge performance, etc) but the sailing industry continues to have a weird fixation that the sport is better off with bleeding edge machines that fall apart.
When Farr was still Farr, with Russell, Staggy and Bruce Farr in charge, they had the hands-on experience to understand these things and their designs were far more realistic and far more successful. The guys who have taken the class over have, sadly, had repeated failures by repeatedly following a failing formula.
After hearing of the girls SOS call via an Apple watch I decided to buy one of these. Managed to get it for $296 GST inclusive on eBay from Spain. Apparently it's the only one that can compete with the expensive Apple and Samsung offerings and it has the unique feature that you can use the superimposed alternate LCD screen and get 45 days battery life.
I just came across an update on this. The statement starts at 11:00, but watch the full video:
?t=661
Select to expand quote2bish said..
I just came across an update on this. The statement starts at 11:00, but watch the full video: ?t=661
Thanks 2bish, that was interesting.
I was a fan of the boat at first. The mod is sensible and fit for purpose but bluntly, it should've been like that from day one. I can't shake the feeling the horse has bolted and now they've shut the gate.
My gripe is the keel should have been beyond normal tolerances for strength and longevity as the whole design is supposed to be transportable. This means the keel is supposed to be removed and refitted in all sorts of yards, so wouldn't any quality builder/design put a s*&^ ton of effort into this most critical of components?
Which leaves me thinking they've chosen profit over quality. Then I start wondering what else have they cut corners on?
Offshore race boat...brand new....keel falls off...investigation cannot determine failure.....fit for short handed? My a#$%.
I've stuck a fork in it. Next time I look at purchasing, I don't think I'll bother visiting Maryland. Sorry Bruce.
Select to expand quote2bish said..
I just came across an update on this. The statement starts at 11:00, but watch the full video: ?t=661
They say that they don't know what caused the problem and yet their fix is implying that the Nexba keel wasn't bolted home so that the keel wasn't fully drawn into its supporting housing.
That's not what I heard as the structure around 1 bolt hole was intact whereas the other was ripped part.
It's ridiculous to say that you don't know what caused the problem but that modifications have made it so that the new and retrofitted boats are safe.
There isn't any depiction of the old system apart from a very general generic statement whereas the new system is depicted in detail with no contrast.
If it was a bolt failure due to manufacturing defect or under spec then the new system wouldnt have made any difference. Similarly if the housing wasn't strong enough then the same problem continues to exist.
The fact that many other designs use the same system and the system has been around for ages only serves to make them look worse not better.
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..
Next time I look at purchasing, I don't think I'll bother visiting Maryland. Sorry Bruce.
Sadly, the horse may have bolted when Bruce (Farr) and Russell (Bowler, the partner and engineer) and Staggy (the guy who used to sail or sell many of their boats) retired.
I remember the story about Bruce Farr visiting the legendary John Spencer to ask how to become a boat designer. Farr had already blitzed the Pennant class with a boat he designed and built, and was dominating the Moths in NZ with a design he created and his brother sailed. Spencer allegedly rolled out from underneath the maxi Buccaneer he was building and said "if you want to design boats, you've got to know how to build boats", so Farr did. Bowler was a qualified engineer and a Cherub and 12 Foot Skiff champ, Staggy was a Cherub sailor who built his own 45 foot Spencer design at about 25 years of age and went on to do brilliantly with it. You could have given the three major Farr office partners in the old days a rusty chisel and two planks and they'd make something and win with it.
It's interesting that so many great designers are champion sailors and so many of the guys who can't get on the podium at championships as sailors also never make it as designers. Theoretical knowledge doesn't seem to come close to matching theoretical knowledge matched with practical experience in building and sailing.
Select to expand quotelydia said..
Looking into my crystal ball, the boat structure did not fail, the fin (cast iron) did not break.
See how I go.
And Yarra, it had a keel box as you describe btw.
Keel box immediately after beaching.
Wow! The Nexba X2 was only 2 weeks old when disaster struck - what is that bubbly mess inside the box?? - or is it irrelevant to the problem?
Select to expand quoteAzure305 said..
Wow! The Nexba X2 was only 2 weeks old when disaster struck - what is that bubbly mess inside the box?? - or is it irrelevant to the problem?
That looks like a really aweful moulding, it couldn't have been manufactured that badly could it? the top of the keel would have had to have been ground down on the corners to fit into that. Is it some kind of gel coat failure maybe. I can't tell if one of the bolt holes has had a bolt ripped through it either, they look fairly even in appearance.
