Solar Coaster rescue off NSW by water Police

Good out come, cool heads in a bad situation when mast fell overboard.

www.9news.com.au/national/three-men-rescued-after-five-days-at-sea-yacht-lost-mast-near-lord-howe-island/5497c574-3882-47c8-b2ba-3403ba8341f8

www.portnews.com.au/story/7012680/fatigued-sailors-reunited-with-family-after-five-days-at-sea/


"Rigging replaced just 2 months ago"

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Madmouse said..
Bathrub reliability curve! Failures early in the life or later in the life.

Btw why was the boar called the solar coaster? (A play on roller coaster?)

That's Stuart from Port Macquarie he took the engine out and replaced it with an electrical one you should the fantastic job he did all brand new batteries down each side all linked together with chips Down each side he did the whole instillation himself that's why the name of the boat and his business. there is some fantastic footage of him going over the Port Macquarie bar in rough conditions he just made it .

Just had a thought.
Rescues don't cost the rescued, but who pays for the tow?
I had to be towed in once by Marine Rescue. I gave them a donation.
If the authorities do the tow, how does that work?

Good outcome all round and glad that the boat was saved along with the crew.
I wonder if the lack of diesel power contributed to the situation.
Not making any judgement here , just wondering. I, like r13 look forward to a postmortem.
.
I imagine the sat-phone was dropped to them because the masthead antenna was gone.
Spare antenna rigged astern, handheld VHF?

That raises the question of where is the limit for backing things up.
Spare mast in case the main one lets go?
Spare life raft?
Spare engine?

I know, I am being silly, but it is a legit question.?


gary

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garymalmgren said..
Good outcome all round and glad that the boat was saved along with the crew.
I wonder if the lack of diesel power contributed to the situation.
Not making any judgement here , just wondering. I, like r13 look forward to a postmortem.
.
I imagine the sat-phone was dropped to them because the masthead antenna was gone.
Spare antenna rigged astern, handheld VHF?

That raises the question of where is the limit for backing things up.
Spare mast in case the main one lets go?
Spare life raft?
Spare engine?

I know, I am being silly, but it is a legit question.?


gary

That dropped sat phone surprised me , because the original call for help was a txt from a sat phone ?
How much strength dose a mast section lose of the years ? Are we fooling ourselves putting new rigging on a 30 year old section ?
Shane Freeman from Golden Globe left Melbourne heading to England via the Horn, he lost his mast in a rollover in the Southern ocean after having all new rigging on his mast for the trip.
This mast went in calm conditions which seems to point to fitting failure, the great thing of a Bermuda rig it's only as good as the weakest link , lots of complexity just waiting to happen makes the junk rig look so inviting. ANY THOUGHTS ON DYNEMA ?
new thread ?

I am interested in the electric motor part too. I would think that having an electric motor would be part of the scenario leaning one towards asking for help rather than motoring for about 200 miles. Most diesel monos can motor at a reasonable speed at about 1 litre an hour so about 40-60 litres could see you wallowing home. I am a big fan of renewable power but this is one place I think that having a heap of energy, stored in any way but gee carbon based fuels are great at storage, would give more self sufficiency. Friends who went electric were quick to ditch it after using it for a while, the range just isn't there, so maybe an electric motor is not really a backup for losing the rig.

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Kankama said..
I am interested in the electric motor part too. I would think that having an electric motor would be part of the scenario leaning one towards asking for help rather than motoring for about 200 miles. Most diesel monos can motor at a reasonable speed at about 1 litre an hour so about 40-60 litres could see you wallowing home. I am a big fan of renewable power but this is one place I think that having a heap of energy, stored in any way but gee carbon based fuels are great at storage, would give more self sufficiency. Friends who went electric were quick to ditch it after using it for a while, the range just isn't there, so maybe an electric motor is not really a backup for losing the rig.

I can't accurately remember the range, it was years ago I sailed on it, from memory .....and I could be wrong it was 7 to 8 hours on a full charge( from solar panels, lives on a mooring) after the system upgrade I think he did, maybe 10 hours at a guess

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Zzzzzz said..
what is the thought in general to salvage from the mast if possible before sending it on it's way? I was thinking boom, turnbuckles, sails,
any thoughts from the brains trust?

HI Zzzz,
I'd keep absolutely everything if I could. As you mention the conditions would be a huge factor in determining what you would cut away, but if keeping a section meant a significant risk to hull integrity and conditions were problematic I would cut anything loose.
For me, sails would be the first to go (you always have more sails on board) but I'd try to keep the boom failing all else, add that to the bowsprit which is almost as long and you have a good start for a jury rig.
When cruising I keep a 18V grinder with a bunch of steel cutting discs on board for cutting through the rigging and mast, if we go racing the crew swap it out for a...sigh...hacksaw which I shudder at every time. I hate trying to cut ss wire with a hacksaw even if it's in a vise let alone on a rolling deck with a mast trying it's level best to kill you, it's one of my worst nightmares.
Hence why I talk lovingly to, and lavish lots of attention on, the sidestay release pins on the chainplates .

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Wander66 said..

shaggybaxter said..

Zzzzzz said..
what is the thought in general to salvage from the mast if possible before sending it on it's way? I was thinking boom, turnbuckles, sails,
any thoughts from the brains trust?

HI Zzzz,
I'd keep absolutely everything if I could. As you mention the conditions would be a huge factor in determining what you would cut away, but if keeping a section meant a significant risk to hull integrity and conditions were problematic I would cut anything loose.
For me, sails would be the first to go (you always have more sails on board) but I'd try to keep the boom failing all else, add that to the bowsprit which is almost as long and you have a good start for a jury rig.
When cruising I keep a 18V grinder with a bunch of steel cutting discs on board for cutting through the rigging and mast, if we go racing the crew swap it out for a...sigh...hacksaw which I shudder at every time. I hate trying to cut ss wire with a hacksaw even if it's in a vise let alone on a rolling deck with a mast trying it's level best to kill you, it's one of my worst nightmares.
Hence why I talk lovingly to, and lavish lots of attention on, the sidestay release pins on the chainplates .

The previous owner of my boat left me a set of these heavy duty style cable cutters, much heavier than a hacksaw but more possibly more useful. Also having extensively used DC grinders and impact drills near flowing freshwater, I can tell you they are very sensitive to getting wet. They come good once they dry out (day or so) but I wonder if that would be the case in saltwater, might be a false sense of security having a grinder to cut cable in an emergency?

I bought myself a set of those, stored along with the mandatory bolt cutters readily accessible, not stored in the bilge.

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MorningBird said..

Wander66 said..

shaggybaxter said..

Zzzzzz said..
what is the thought in general to salvage from the mast if possible before sending it on it's way? I was thinking boom, turnbuckles, sails,
any thoughts from the brains trust?

HI Zzzz,
I'd keep absolutely everything if I could. As you mention the conditions would be a huge factor in determining what you would cut away, but if keeping a section meant a significant risk to hull integrity and conditions were problematic I would cut anything loose.
For me, sails would be the first to go (you always have more sails on board) but I'd try to keep the boom failing all else, add that to the bowsprit which is almost as long and you have a good start for a jury rig.
When cruising I keep a 18V grinder with a bunch of steel cutting discs on board for cutting through the rigging and mast, if we go racing the crew swap it out for a...sigh...hacksaw which I shudder at every time. I hate trying to cut ss wire with a hacksaw even if it's in a vise let alone on a rolling deck with a mast trying it's level best to kill you, it's one of my worst nightmares.
Hence why I talk lovingly to, and lavish lots of attention on, the sidestay release pins on the chainplates .

The previous owner of my boat left me a set of these heavy duty style cable cutters, much heavier than a hacksaw but more possibly more useful. Also having extensively used DC grinders and impact drills near flowing freshwater, I can tell you they are very sensitive to getting wet. They come good once they dry out (day or so) but I wonder if that would be the case in saltwater, might be a false sense of security having a grinder to cut cable in an emergency?

I had a huge set of bolt cutters and a few hacksaws. Even better, the rig was massively over engineered so I'd never need the tools.

Trouble with having massively oversized rigging is where is the next weakest link ?

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Zzzzzz said..
Stu is a very very resourceful man and having the back up of crew I was wondering since the mast came down in calm conditions and not meaning to be a armchair sailor , and I coincide I wasn't there , there was pressure to get rid of the mast before it did any damage to the hull .
what is the thought in general to salvage from the mast if possible before sending it on it's way? I was thinking boom, turnbuckles, sails,
any thoughts from the brains trust?
Only having electric motor and it's limitations in the short period , as I would assume solar would recharge over long period .
that a jury rig would be A prerequisite (more so than. Diesel powered yacht ) to reach shore.
By the sounds of the article they had no shortage of wind . It was wonderful seeing the family reunited on shore very emotional .

Imho would be careful as regards turnbuckles. The transient peak load in the standing rigging would obviously be greater than the shrouds / forestay / backstay breaking load rating - by how much would be impossible to tell without expensive load monitoring instrumentation;

info.upffront.com/blog/smartlink-live-rig-load-data-at-your-fingertips

So if any turnbuckles got damage from the transient peak load at the wire breakage event, re-using them would not be prudent. Just a thought.

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r13 said..

Zzzzzz said..
Stu is a very very resourceful man and having the back up of crew I was wondering since the mast came down in calm conditions and not meaning to be a armchair sailor , and I coincide I wasn't there , there was pressure to get rid of the mast before it did any damage to the hull .
what is the thought in general to salvage from the mast if possible before sending it on it's way? I was thinking boom, turnbuckles, sails,
any thoughts from the brains trust?
Only having electric motor and it's limitations in the short period , as I would assume solar would recharge over long period .
that a jury rig would be A prerequisite (more so than. Diesel powered yacht ) to reach shore.
By the sounds of the article they had no shortage of wind . It was wonderful seeing the family reunited on shore very emotional .

Imho would be careful as regards turnbuckles. The transient peak load in the standing rigging would obviously be greater than the shrouds / forestay / backstay breaking load rating - by how much would be impossible to tell without expensive load monitoring instrumentation;

info.upffront.com/blog/smartlink-live-rig-load-data-at-your-fingertips

So if any turnbuckles got damage from the transient peak load at the wire breakage event, re-using them would not be prudent. Just a thought.

R13 I really like your imput very interesting reading I will get stuck into that blog thanks

Excellent article here regarding deck and keel stepped masts, potential failure sites etc

www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2020/5/20/deck-stepped-vs-keel-stepped-mast#:~:text=This%20distinction%20refers%20to%20the,the%20top%20of%20the%20deck.

For the usual situation of cap shroud breakage most masts whether deck or keel stepped break at the lower spreader as you indicate - the lower diamonds assist to result in this breakage point. If possible a jury rig can be set up on the stub as you say.

Note that there is a 1.35 multiplying factor on lower panel inertia for deck stepped masts compared to keel stepped - which is why deck stepped masts are typically sleeved from the deck to above the lower spreaders, this sleeve ending in a suitable taper so that the inertia transition at the lower spreaders area is not too sudden.

Just this morning one of the racers in The Veendee lost their rig. They are now motoring at about 8 knots on their own. It is about 200 miles to the island they are now bound for. It seems like racers can save themselves after dismasting, so it think I will look at my boat and consider how to make it so I would not call out the authorities if my mast was lost. Maybe a parachute sea anchor when headwinds are strong and then some use of booms and poles to project smaller sails upon with motor assistance for better conditions.

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r13 said..
Excellent article here regarding deck and keel stepped masts, potential failure sites etc

www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2020/5/20/deck-stepped-vs-keel-stepped-mast#:~:text=This%20distinction%20refers%20to%20the,the%20top%20of%20the%20deck.

For the usual situation of cap shroud breakage most masts whether deck or keel stepped break at the lower spreader as you indicate - the lower diamonds assist to result in this breakage point. If possible a jury rig can be set up on the stub as you say.

Note that there is a 1.35 multiplying factor on lower panel inertia for deck stepped masts compared to keel stepped - which is why deck stepped masts are typically sleeved from the deck to above the lower spreaders, this sleeve ending in a suitable taper so that the inertia transition at the lower spreaders area is not too sudden.

SS 34 and UFO 34 are good examples when looking at the differences in deck step and keel step rigs. Because alot of these boats were river racing boats, quite a few were deck stepped on a tabernacle . Most of the deck stepped versions of these have the tree trunk style, larger extrusion mast to make up for the lost support provided when keel stepping.
Standing the monstrosity will take you up a size in wire on the caps. Then when you look closely at the rig, you then see alot with inline spreaders and single inline lower shrouds. You then have basically one shroud doing the work of two,(well,,, not quite) so naturally the shrouds and turnbuckles then become a larger dia, chain plates become larger . These differences in the rigging and hardware when compared to a keel stepped version (especially if it has forward and aft lowers) create the illusion of being massively over engineered.
Some of these deck stepped single lower rigs that go off shore have check stays added to keep the monstrosity in column, without them there is nothing to stop the center of the mast moving forward under its own inertia.

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Zzzzzz said..

Jolene said..

r13 said..
Excellent article here regarding deck and keel stepped masts, potential failure sites etc

www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2020/5/20/deck-stepped-vs-keel-stepped-mast#:~:text=This%20distinction%20refers%20to%20the,the%20top%20of%20the%20deck.

For the usual situation of cap shroud breakage most masts whether deck or keel stepped break at the lower spreader as you indicate - the lower diamonds assist to result in this breakage point. If possible a jury rig can be set up on the stub as you say.

Note that there is a 1.35 multiplying factor on lower panel inertia for deck stepped masts compared to keel stepped - which is why deck stepped masts are typically sleeved from the deck to above the lower spreaders, this sleeve ending in a suitable taper so that the inertia transition at the lower spreaders area is not too sudden.

SS 34 and UFO 34 are good examples when looking at the differences in deck step and keel step rigs. Because alot of these boats were river racing boats, quite a few were deck stepped on a tabernacle . Most of the deck stepped versions of these have the tree trunk style, larger extrusion mast to make up for the lost support provided when keel stepping.
Standing the monstrosity will take you up a size in wire on the caps. Then when you look closely at the rig, you then see alot with inline spreaders and single inline lower shrouds. You then have basically one shroud doing the work of two,(well,,, not quite) so naturally the shrouds and turnbuckles then become a larger dia, chain plates become larger . These differences in the rigging and hardware when compared to a keel stepped version (especially if it has forward and aft lowers) create the illusion of being massively over engineered.
Some of these deck stepped single lower rigs that go off shore have check stays added to keep the monstrosity in column, without them there is nothing to stop the center of the mast moving forward under its own inertia.

Great read Jolene , is there a standard that will give you a very good chance of keeping your mast after a roll over or do you think you consider the mast lost in a roll over ?

I would say the standard is what the design riggers rig them with. The question in the case of a lost rig in a roll over is,,, what was the point failure and what caused the failure ??
The nature of the roll over, the cause of the roll over could place huge variables on rig survival.