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I am capable & far from stupid, I want the right to decide when I wear my life jacket when sailing/fishing in both enclosed waters and offshore. I don't want to put a jacket on when going ashore for a swim in the tender (when there are two of us). I wear a jacket when conditions dictate, when on my own & when crossing a bar.
More to get fined for & idiots will still make bad choises!
Please have your say
What if there was a caveat along the lines of:
"Except for occupants of a tender registered to a mothership anchored or moored in a marked anchorage or mooring controlled area and not more than 500m of the mother vessel. "
Out of the two options I'd prefer option 1.
Select to expand quoteToph said..
What if there was a caveat along the lines of:
"Except for occupants of a tender registered to a mothership anchored or moored in a marked anchorage or mooring controlled area and not more than 500m of the mother vessel. "
Out of the two options I'd prefer option 1.
Agreed, option 1. It would be better if they put that caveat in.
"Except for occupants of a tender registered to a mothership anchored or moored in a marked anchorage
So what you are saying, Torph, is that people and children in that situation who tip over or are hit by a jet ski would be ok without a PFD.
That is because it s a "registered tender".
Not sure I see the logic.
gary
Select to expand quotegarymalmgren said..
"Except for occupants of a tender registered to a mothership anchored or moored in a marked anchorage
So what you are saying, Torph, is that people and children in that situation who tip over or are hit by a jet ski would be ok without a PFD.
That is because it s a "registered tender".
Not sure I see the logic.
gary
Well I can swim & paddle board to shore without a life jacket but I have to wear one in an inflatable tender?
Select to expand quotegarymalmgren said..
"Except for occupants of a tender registered to a mothership anchored or moored in a marked anchorage
So what you are saying, Torph, is that people and children in that situation who tip over or are hit by a jet ski would be ok without a PFD.
That is because it s a "registered tender".
Not sure I see the logic.
gary
No Gary that's not what I was actually getting at.... You could make any caveat you like eg, children under 12 must still wear a PFD, or PFD's still must be worn between dusk and dawn, or you must be 6' with brown hair only and have held a bronze medallion to be exempt..... I was just trying to gage where the OP was coming from....
WYWURI jumped at the suggested caveat because it suits them (and there is absolutely noting wrong with that), but it won't suit everyone. That's the issue with the rule set... One size doesn't fit all...
My first thought was not about wearing the PFD, but more the inconvenience of having to carry one everywhere or risk having it stolen from the tender when you went ashore... How sh!t would I feel of one of my kids drowned with that as my actual concern 
Select to expand quoteWYWURRI said..
m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10159273581111259&id=166166056258
I am capable & far from stupid, I want the right to decide when I wear my life jacket when sailing/fishing in both enclosed waters and offshore. I don't want to put a jacket on when going ashore for a swim in the tender (when there are two of us). I wear a jacket when conditions dictate, when on my own & when crossing a bar.
More to get fined for & idiots will still make bad choises!
Please have your say
So do want the right not to get a Covid vaccine as well because you are special
And by the way, Tasmania has had the PFD requirement for the tender and the mothership to the shore for at least a decade.
Everyone got over it.
It would be easy enough to require PFDs to be worn only when further than (say) 200 metres from shore, or in winter when people may be wearing heavy clothing.
Maritime has no logic and no ability to research PFD requirements, according to the experience I had with them years ago. They proposed rules requiring windsurfers to wear PFDs even when sailing in the surf, which even the Royal Life Saving Society (or whatever they are called) thought was a stupid idea. I wrote the submission for windsurfers which led Maritime to dump the rules - only for Maritime to bring them in a few years later without telling anyone they were going to do so.
Sadly, both Australian Sailing and the old Yachting NSW okayed the initial Maritime proposal without bothering to consult the windsurfing associations - so much for the great representation we allegedly paid our dues for.
To show how silly Maritime rules are, SUP paddlers don't have to wear PFDs because Maritime says that they can make it hard to get back on the board. So if I take the rig off my windsurfer, so that it can easily blow away and is therefore far more dangerous, I don't have to wear a PFD. If I put the rig back on, so that it becomes an ideal sea anchor, I need to wear a PFD despite the fact that it will make it just as hard to get back on as if I was SUPping.
Treating Tasmanian waters as different is fine, because the average summer water temps are around 16 degrees C compared to 24 degrees for Sydney, for example. You get cold water shock at 15 degrees, not in 23 degrees. So Tassy is a different case and different rules are fine.
Just adding on extra rules seems fine to the bureaucratic mind, but they normally utterly ignore any downsides such as the extra complication driving people out of healthy activity. It's a bit like the way Australian Sailing has made offshore racing regs so complicated that many of us are drifting towards shorthanded sailing, which may be more dangerous but reduces the vast amount of hassle and expense involved in the safety certification for fully-crewed racing.
Maritime claim that their safety rules are reducing drownings, but some of their claims are simply ludicrous and utterly without any logical basis, as they admitted in correspondence related to the windsurfing and PFD submission. Drownings are reducing but given the high number of drownings that follow the capsize of small powerboats, the fact that people tend to have larger boats these days could be the main cause for the improvement.
I just filled in the survey and had a rant. I don't think it will do much. It was little like voting for either of two options you despise. There was little room for expressing an opinion but I did do a cranky pants at the end.
I worry that this is why people in the end vote for "freedom" political parties as they get older. My dad died because he didn't wear a lifejacket, before I was born, so I am fully cognizant of their need. But I have also had one hold me under a righted dinghy that almost drowned me and seen my wife get pummeled in the break zone when she capsized her kayak because she couldn't get under the waves. LIfejackets don't always improve safety. Unlike cars and the drivers within them, we are operating in very varied conditions whereas as drivers we only sit in one spot.
Trying to get this idea through to people is difficult. When training in Lasers I specifically did NOT wear a lifejacket (but always wore a full length steamer) because being able to swim 20 metres really fast is the most important thing to do when training on your own. I have seen other sailors need rescuing because their Lasers sailed along capsized faster than the bootied and lifejacketed sailors could swim. A steamer gave me some flotation but I could swim fast. When I trained for the Worlds offshore I knew I would be SAFER without a lifejacket (and made sure I held onto the main tight when I rolled in to windward). Sure it was a little dangerous to sail offshore on my own in a Laser but I had to train in big wave conditions. (It was a hoot and I only went out in onshore winds)
That is what gets me about these rules. Being on the water is so varied and what someone thinks is safer may actually make an experienced person less so. As a public servant myself, who teaches kids to follow rules, I shake my head.
In NSW professional fishermen don't have to wear lifejackets or PDFs crossing bars or at any other time.
Am I reading it wrong or does the second option mean that anyone on deck of a sailing yacht outside the heads will be required to be wearing a lifejacket at all times? Good luck getting the racers to do that!
Transport for NSW (TfNSW) in their road guise are just as ridiculous.
I am involved in classic cars and TfNSW are proposing new laws that all seat belts fitted to pre seat belt cars have to meet current standards. Clearly my 1950s cars weren't built with seat belts in mind and it is not possible to meet current standards. For example the backing plates have to be a certain minimum size (3750sqmm). In two my cars there isn't the space under the floor to achieve the minimum size, close (about 3500sqmm) but close isn't good enough under the proposed rules.
So to get the car registered I must remove the belt as it is legal to drive the car without seat belts.
Many people and clubs have made submissions on the danger of these proposed rules and have been met by stony refusal to listen.
I can't fathom the nanny state in which we live.
Select to expand quoteJethrow said..
Am I reading it wrong or does the second option mean that anyone on deck of a sailing yacht outside the heads will be required to be wearing a lifejacket at all times? Good luck getting the racers to do that!
I got that one too. It means if you are anchored at Broughton and move to the next bay in a calm, you have to wear a lifejacket.
What is funny is that as a teacher we are told/and do make individual changes for student's needs. One arm of government understands that individuals are different but another doesn't.
I can swim to my boat, I can climb up my anchor chain, my cat has steps and a permanent way of boarding the boat. Many can't board their boats from the water but I can. If I was to wear a lifejacket (which I don't in the dinghy because it makes rowing a pain) I swim much slower, I can't climb the anchor chain and it is (slightly) harder to board the aft steps. So I am less safe. But my mate, who is much less fit than me always wears his jacket in the dinghy as he cannot get himself out of the water. Great move on his behalf and eminently sensible.
s
Qld. Regs. Pretty lax regarding life jackets . Even if only 1pob jacket not required.
IMO boat size matters irrespective how fit and how short the journey.Sad this couple were not wearing pfd's
June 2021
"Overseas-based relatives of a woman who died after a freak wave knocked her and her husband off their boat off Brisbane have expressed their shock and grief over her death.Meen Meen Chiu, 48, was fishing with her 54-year-old husband Philip Chiu on a dinghy ( tinney looks about 4-5 metres min.) near the Port of Brisbane on Saturday night."At this stage, it looks like the vessel's been capsized by a wave and, from there, the two people have been thrown into the water," said Senior Sergeant Mitchell Gray, from the Brisbane Water Police.The couple, from Brisbane, were able to call a family member, sparking a search, Gray said.They clung to the upturned boat throughout the night but Meen Meen became "tired and fatigued and has become separated" from her husband, he said.
Meen Meen Chiu, 48, slipped away while clinging to an upturned boat with 54-year-old husband Philip Chiu.Credit: FacebookOn Sunday, Philip Chiu was found still clinging to the upturned boat about 10am.He was taken to Princess Alexandra Hospital suffering hypothermia.Meen Meen's body was found in the water later that day."
Has anyone noticed that Proposal B means that any of us who anchored alone, in a dead calm just off a beach, would have to wear a PFD every time we went on deck? No more lazing in the sun while varnishing without a PFD. You'd have to wear one while having lunch or servicing a winch, even in 37 degrees. I'll have to put one on when my wife takes the dogs for a run ashore or for a windsurf.
The other day I heard a boat come fairly close so I walked up the companionway and saw it was the local Maritime boat. If I'd been alone, I'd have broken the law.
Ludicrously, if one was down below and decided to have a swim, you'd have to grab a PFD, put it on, walk up the companionway, dive in, then undo the PFD while you swam. So swimming around the boat without a PFD is safe, but sitting on the cockpit sole is risky.
By the way, has anyone noticed the stuff Maritime put in safety promotions? The pic in the survey shows a guy who is statistically probably at far greater danger of heart disease or skin cancer than anything else, but he's got a PFD. Then there was the vid that showed some footballer in a tinny, where his mate fell overboard after another boat passed close and rocked the tinny. The dangerous acts of standing in a small tinny, passing close to a small tinny at high speed, going out in a small tinny and not wearing hats were all ignored - it was all just about wearing a PFD.
Seems that those of us that said the anchoring and use regulations introduced previously were the thin edge of the wedge were on the money.
Option A if the boats > 6m no change option B as Chris points out anchored at say Byron wearing one on deck could be a PITA. Is this a real RMS thing or just some attention seeking / job justifying ploy, For those with not much to do because of lockdown ?
Select to expand quotewoko said..
Option A if the boats > 6m no change option B as Chris points out anchored at say Byron wearing one on deck could be a PITA. Is this a real RMS thing or just some attention seeking / job justifying ploy, For those with not much to do because of lockdown ?
You may be right but as we saw with the anchoring rules, the good minister (ms Pavey in this case ) was unreachable for discussions and totally disinterested in discussions with such a small minority.
I don't think it's a big deal to put on a life jacket on when in any boat.
The most uncomfortable time is in certain kayaks but we get use to it just like seat belts.
Having said this I mostly go out to my boat on a small paddle board with no life jacket.
A far more useful thing for them to do is come up with a permanent solution for the disposal of out of date flares. Can't just hand em to your local BSO anymore. Can't toss em on the bin or overboard what are you supposed to do with em ? Tote an out of date explosive around and see what happens, that is what we do now. Maybe the honourable minister for BS could turn his/ her attention to the issue.
Select to expand quotewarwickl said..
I don't think it's a big deal to put on a life jacket on when in any boat.
The most uncomfortable time is in certain kayaks but we get use to it just like seat belts.
Having said this I mostly go out to my boat on a small paddle board with no life jacket.
How often do you spend a few hours lying back in your kayak, reading a book with a wine or beer? How often do you eat a nice meal in your kayak cockpit? How often do you spend a few hours in your kayak servicing an outboard? How often do you spend hours in your kayak varnishing? How often do you spend hours in your kayak pulling a fitting off, opening up the holes, mixing up bog, sanding and fairing it off, servicing the fitting, and replacing it? How often are you two metres from the gunwale in your kayak, with a set of lifelines in between you and the water? How can your kayak's stability be compared to that of a 50' yacht?
How often do you eat in your seatbelt, while stationary in a safe location? How often do you maintain your car in your seatbelt? How often do you polish your car's roof while wearing a seatbelt?
There's just no comparison between what we do on a big boat and what we do in a car or kayak. Some of us have spent hours per day, week after week, on deck of anchored boats, and we do it while doing maintenance or just chilling or eating. That's not comparable to kayaking in a PFD, sailing a dinghy or wearing a bike helmet.
Oh, and why don't you wear a four-point harness in your car, with a full-face helmet and a flame suit? What roll cage do you have in your car? What automatic fire extinguisher system? All of those would make you safer, so why not do them? You'd get used to it, just like racing drivers do.
The issue is that safety measures have to be related to the risk. These proposals imply that the person sitting in a chair in something like a Swan 50 or a Riviera 60 is in some real danger of suddenly falling overboard, and that's just not true.
By the way, the Maritime site says that Proposal B requires PFDs "at all times when boating alone." (My emphasis)
There's nothing saying that it refers only to being in open waters, or under way. Some of the OTHER parts of the proposals refer to "being under way" or "in open water", but the part that refers to boating alone refers to "at all times" - not just when being underway or offshore. So any time a solo sailor is at anchor, they will have to wear a PFD under proposal B. If my wife is taking the dogs ashore in the dinghy, I'll have to wear a PFD from the time she leaves until the time I jump in to swim in to meet her. How dumb is that!
I'm lucky, living in the country we rarely see Maritime or the Water Police, and if I did I would wander down below, put a PFD under my shirt, and walk back up to greet them if they came near. In Sydney's crowded waters, it may not be that easy - especially when they are also looking at drone surveillance.
At all times.. would that include below deck then?
BTW in Vic people have been pinged for not wearing their PFD driving the boat onto the trailer.
Vic rules here
In my experience with Australian sailing one thing is clear, they do not want keel boat owners. Their agenda is solely focused on Olympic class dinghys as this constitutes near all of their funding, Their is zero intent or desire to get involved with assisting the majority of sailors who are not and never will bring more Olympic funding.
I offered to work with them to correct some loopholes in the rules and they refused, even whilst acknowledging the rules are broken.
They will do nothing to assist or promote keel boat sailing. Lobbying or representation against this sort of thing is best off done without them.
Select to expand quotelydia said..WYWURRI said..
m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10159273581111259&id=166166056258
I am capable & far from stupid, I want the right to decide when I wear my life jacket when sailing/fishing in both enclosed waters and offshore. I don't want to put a jacket on when going ashore for a swim in the tender (when there are two of us). I wear a jacket when conditions dictate, when on my own & when crossing a bar.
More to get fined for & idiots will still make bad choises!
Please have your say
So do want the right not to get a Covid vaccine as well because you are special
And by the way, Tasmania has had the PFD requirement for the tender and the mothership to the shore for at least a decade.
Everyone got over it.
I'm fully vaxed thanks & have been for months. A quick trip to shore for a swim doesn't require wearing a life jacket when there are two people in the boat imo. I follow all the rules as they are & am a believer in life jackets. I just think that tightening the rules to this extent won't change anything. You can't legislate against stupidity so idiots will still take risks & have accidents. Getting your life jacket wet & salty regularly will potentially diminish it's safety. And BTW I don't go ashore for a swim in winter or cold conditions & happy to wear one if needed.
The options are suggestions at this stage however it brings to mind what do they determine by the word ' boating' .Is it used as a verb or adjective ,does it mean that if sitting on the boat in a marina pen or on dry land one is boating or does the word imply the vessel is underway. Sic.'at all times when boating'
Many years ago the British stat's were that the majority of yachting drownings occurred from yacht tenders. Anyone know what the British stat's and rules are like today?
Wywurri, thanks for putting up the the MR link that contains the link to the maritime survey, at least we get to have our say even if no notice is taken. hint if you tick other in the questions that provide that choice then you can have a bit of input.
Select to expand quoteYara said..
Many years ago the British stat's were that the majority of yachting drownings occurred from yacht tenders. Anyone know what the British stat's and rules are like today?
They were mostly lonely old men returning from the pub that fell in while trying to board their yachts. Alcohol was the main cause of the drownings but it was stated that hypothermia would have probably got them anyway. PDF's would have made it easier to find the bodies!
Select to expand quoteYara said..
Many years ago the British stat's were that the majority of yachting drownings occurred from yacht tenders. Anyone know what the British stat's and rules are like today?
There were 630 drowning deaths in the UK in 2020. Just seven were in "manually powered boats" which would include many yacht tenders as well as others. Just 14 in powerboats of all types, including yacht tenders. Two died sailing on boats, while three drowned while kiting or windsurfing. So 27 deaths from leisure boating; under one in 20 of all drownings.
For comparison, 89 (yep, 89) somehow drowned while walking or running; such high numbers are not uncommon so I assume it's people getting caught on the vast sandbanks and caught out by the huge tides, or getting drunk and falling into water, which happened near us last time we were in the UK. I think quite a few also fell into canals.
As usual, a couple of people died from drowning while cycling. Again, cycling along towpaths or while drunk were probably involved. Sixteen drowned in cars. Suicides are involved in plenty of the above, of course.
The weird thing is that this is not the first time that cycling as drowned about as many people as sailing. So since per-capita rates are ignored by Maritime, if they rely on simple statistics then maybe cyclists should wear PFDs. In parts of England the authorities are trying to stop people going swimming at beaches and on lakes during heatwaves to stop drownings. Maybe the authorities here should so the same thing, if they are serious about stopping drowning. Naaaaa, it's much easier to attack insignificant factors.......
There were 248 drowning deaths in Oz, which is similar pro-rata to the UK. Drowning rates in Australia have dropped to 1/20th of what they were in the late 1800s, incidentally. The latest RLS drowning research report indicates that the problematic groups are disabled kids and people from country, indigenous and NESB groups, NOT the affluent anglos who tend to go boating.
Yachting and sailing (not including windsurfing) make up only 4.4% of "activity-based watercraft-related injuries" in Australia. Incidentally, the average person who goes boating has less than a chance in a million of drowning while boating each year.
Incidentally, 2% of boating drowning deaths in Oz in the 2020 report occurred at jetties, so this attempt to avoid any drowning deaths must inevitably mean that boaties on jetties and marinas will have to wear PFDs at all times.
When doing the above research I saw yet another photo about wearing PFDs that showed peopld standing up in tinnies while fishing. Funny how the use of tinnys for fishing, which seems to top the boating-drowning deaths, is never seen as the problem; rather it's what people wear in safer boats.
