Hi there lurkers!
Our 35 hp Lees Marine (based on a ford Dexta/ Perkins 3 cylinder tractor engine) chucked a sad a little while back The rubber diaphram thingie that is a essential part of the governor dissolved and the old clunker picked up its heels and ran silly........made for interesting times as we struggled to shut it down as it looked as though it could jump off the mounts and it threatened to rattled itself out through the side of the hull.....luckily we were able to do so before it picked up the oil out of the sump and went into a feeding frenzy. This has really pissed me off as this engine is only 50 odd years old, I thought those poms would make something that would last.
I took the engine out and stripped it down...fearing the worst I was quite surprised to find minimal damage. I took the opportunity to give the old thing a total go over, with new bearings, seals etc and had the offending governor rebuilt. (apparently stuff in modern diesel does this to old rubber!) still...it's an old engine and will need replacing at some stage
I did note that the hole where the engine came out of was quite a nice spot and my mind got to wondering if there was a better way to fill it than with a noisey/ smelly and ancient engine. At the same time I read an article in Classic Boat where Niki Perryman describes how they have fitted out Siandra with an electric engine. This sounds fantastic.....but they have had difficulties getting the prop to regenerate enough electricity and have to rely on wind/ solar panels.
I was wondering if anybody has gone down this track....and perhaps included a diesel generator into the equation?
"Kristina" is a similar hull design to "Siandra", but we are blessed with a ketch rig.

Hey Cisco
You have obviously never sailed a well designed ketch..."Kristina" will sail and tack, gybe downwind with just the mizzen.
She is a 40' Robert Clarke built out of Port Kembla pine.
Yes...we get to use the jetty when ever we want...Oyster Cove, in the D'Entrecasteaux Channel....and the oysters are yummy and you can collect as many as you like and.....you know
Yes, the engine over ran, got hot and vibrated badly. I'm no mechanic....but the mechanic said it was caused by a rubber diaphragm in the governor disolving etc.
Didn't need a rebore or pistons etc....looked as though it had only just been run in.....indicative of a good hull/rig design which allows us to sail...not motor perhaps.
What concerns me is that it has been raw water cooled for 50 years with no anodes. There is no evidence of severe corrosion......but you cannot see everywhere.
At this stage I'm fully prepared to keep the old girl as is ,....but if needs be I'd rather be prepared for plan b. A full gasket set costs about $150, so you can see how expensive it is to run.
We have owned a Toyota Prius for 5 years. The technology is impressive. A simple electric motor with regenerative capability would have obvious benefits for a crusing yacht. We never brake our fixed 3 blade prop...so why not use the wasted energy to advantage. Not a problem with a slippery hull...and a powerful ketch rig.
What I would be keen to investigte is how practical it is to link it to a water cooled diesel generator.....one that can be easily removed from the yacht......and used around the farm to weld gates and the like. Now that is KISS!
Me thinks you need to read Perryman's account.

tassiefubar said...

Hey Cisco
You have obviously never sailed a well designed ketch..."Kristina" will sail and tack, gybe downwind with just the mizzen.
She is a 40' Robert Clarke built out of Port Kembla pine.
Yes...we get to use the jetty when ever we want...Oyster Cove, in the D'Entrecasteaux Channel....and the oysters are yummy and you can collect as many as you like and.....you know
Yes, the engine over ran, got hot and vibrated badly. I'm no mechanic....but the mechanic said it was caused by a rubber diaphragm in the governor disolving etc.
Didn't need a rebore or pistons etc....looked as though it had only just been run in.....indicative of a good hull/rig design which allows us to sail...not motor perhaps.
What concerns me is that it has been raw water cooled for 50 years with no anodes. There is no evidence of severe corrosion......but you cannot see everywhere.
At this stage I'm fully prepared to keep the old girl as is ,....but if needs be I'd rather be prepared for plan b. A full gasket set costs about $150, so you can see how expensive it is to run.
We have owned a Toyota Prius for 5 years. The technology is impressive. A simple electric motor with regenerative capability would have obvious benefits for a crusing yacht. We never brake our fixed 3 blade prop...so why not use the wasted energy to advantage. Not a problem with a slippery hull...and a powerful ketch rig.
What I would be keen to investigte is how practical it is to link it to a water cooled diesel generator.....one that can be easily removed from the yacht......and used around the farm to weld gates and the like. Now that is KISS!
Me thinks you need to read Perryman's account.

Tassie, Sounds to me like we can both benefit from the pronouncements of an expert (knowall bastard). When I read your orginal account it sounded to me like the rubber diaphragm (thingie) in the govenor had dissolved and the engine had over run. Seems plausible from my diesel knowledge but then I am no expert. I like the idea of electic drive but suspect that the battery bank would simply have to be too large (particularly in my light displacement Noelex 30), but then you evidently weren't going to have batteries with your system were you!!!
I have read of a system that fits between the existing engine and the gearbox, not sure if this is used as a regenerative electric drive/direct diesel drive unit or not. I suspect that bulk/weight would become a bit of a problem using a propellor driven regenerative unit/batteries plus and additional diesel motor genset for battery charging.

i think its an awesome idea.thats my 2 cents worth.

tassiefubar said...

Hi Frant
Thanks for you helpful comments.
We will definately need to include a battery bank......weight is not an issue in our particular boat, indeed it would be an advantage. The original (tractor) engine is very heavy, the block being cast iron and deliberatly cast overthickness so as the tractors did not have to run extra weights. Old tech. lead acid batteries are most suitable......in the case of a lightweight yacht the more expensive latest generation batteries may have some application......but at a cost!
"Siandra's fitout gave them a range of only about 1hour at 6knts. They find this suitable for their needs...and they are out there doing it.....have been circumnavigating/ liveaboard cruisers for at least 10 years. They have decided not to include a diesel generating system. Extra batteries...mean extra endurance. They regenerate using wind, solar and are exploring the possibility of using the prop. while sailing.
I don't know if we could find the lack of an alternative power source acceptable, hence the hybrid option. We may never actually need to run the diesel for motive power.....but having the back up would be very comforting.
As for "spoiling our yacht with ....new and fangled equipment".....well I can remember the time when people were saying the same for Dacron sails....hummm!
Slipping along at 6knts. in a flat calm with NO NOISE sounds pretty good to me.

Tassie
I found the article in Cruising World relating to the Hybrid System. Have sent you a PM and will email a copy if you are interested.
I would have thought that a hybrid electric system would only really be usefull if the regenerative charging while under sail was sufficient for your propulsion requirements. It would seem mighty pointless to run a genset while enjoying the sunset at mooring so that you could do your mundane motoring (whilst anchoring etc) in silence. This system does require 4x Heavy Duty 48 volt propulsion batteries. I doubt that the house battery charging system (solar, wind and engine driven alternator) would have sufficient reserve capacity to maintain this additional battery bank. Unless you are plugged into a 240 volt marina on a daily basis it doesn't look promising.

I have a electric outboard in my trimaran and it runs mostly from solar charging. To begin with I only used it for getting on an off the mooring or anchor and prefer to sail on and off whenever I can :) (I'd always been like that.)

But I now quite like to "motor sail" when conditions are flukey. With the motor set at a really low power, say 100 to 200 watts, it enough to help through tacks, and keep the sails drawing in knocks. And as she picks up speed, the motor stops using any power at all. It only takes power when the speed drops real low. So it turns out that the power used for this kind of motor sailing is almost negligible.

On sunny days the solar panels have charged the house batteries by about 11 am and then for the rest of the day the solar power is available to charge the propulsion batteries. The house batteries are AGMs and the propulsion batteries are lithium. They're good for about 2 hours at full speed (6.5 knots) or about 10 hours at 3 to 4 knots. Slowing down makes a huge difference to range.

The usual amount of power I use for getting on and off the mooring and perhaps a bit of motor sailing is say 5 to 15 amphours (at 48volts) and that can take one or two sunny days to recover. When I need to run the motor for longer periods it can take weeks to fully re-charge the pack, especially when overcast.

Lithium batteries are a good choice for this setup because they don't suffer when only partially charged. As well they can delivery high currents with very little voltage drop and so are suited for propulsion. And they're much lighter which makes them suitable for lighter boats, such as my trimaran.

The outboard is a Torqeedo and even though its not promoted as having regen, it does re-charge the batteries. It begins charging at around 6 knots and at that speed produces about 1.5 to 2 amps. This doesn't sound like much but its at 48v so its equivalent to about 6 to 8 amps at 12v. I've seen as much as 18 amps, but she was doing about 13 knots at the time :) I haven't used the regen much because to begin with I wasn't sure that it was ok to do so - worried that I might damage the controller.

There's an electric boat forum on yahoo with about 4000 members and thats a good place to lurk to pick up information about this kind of thing, and regen is one of the topics that comes up. From the discussions I've seen regen capability has often been disappointing especially on yachts with a hull speed similar to the speed that the regen cuts in. see electricboats@yahoogroups.com

But I'm happy even with 1 amp of regen if its happening all day. or more importantly all night. cos its at night when you have a big load on house batteries, with nav lights, autopilot, nav gear, as well as the usual house loads. And 1 amp at 48v converted with a dc-dc converter and feeding into the house bank at 4 amps could be just about break even.

If you're interested in more info about my boat I have a blog at currentsunshine.com/

And since going electric I've started a business selling these electric outboards so I should declare my commercial interest in this topic.

Cheers

Chris

Hi Hangtime

She still goes like a rocket. We had her doing 25 knots when last up at Pittwater - on strong gust on flat water. But I'm sure she's a bit slower than in her heyday - she's carrying a bit more weight now.

And drop by for a cuppa if your down this way.

Cheers

Chris