Digging through some boxes of spares I got when I purchased Wapiti, I found these core samples from thru hulls and thought they may be of interest to any timber boat fans. I was a little surprised to see t&g
The three timbers are NZ Kauri for the hull, red cedar on the Coach house and Oregon for structural
Keelson
Stem
Transom
Coach house
Cockpit Drain
None of that is cold moulded just laminated save for looks like two skins in the last pic over the strip planking
My mistake, I thought the construction method of using strip planks and diagonals that are laminated together with epoxy over a male mold was called cold molding. Whats the difference between laminating and cold molding
Cold moulding is usually double diagonal, either two layers or three and occasionally a skin for and aft to finish. This is my Finn dinghy I have just bought. Double diagonal in Queensland maple and probably built by Savage in 1954. It was built for Carl Ryves as a training boat for the 1956 Olympics. Other owners include Bob Miller and Blue Robinson.
Looks Gorgeous Ramona, but how is laminating different from cold molding, I thought that laminating multiple layers was part of the process, actually plenty of strip planked boats with only one layer of timber in the core, I thought if they are built over a mold they would classify as cold molding as well.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
Cold moulding is usually double diagonal, either two layers or three and occasionally a skin for and aft to finish. This is my Finn dinghy I have just bought. Double diagonal in Queensland maple and probably built by Savage in 1954. It was built for Carl Ryves as a training boat for the 1956 Olympics. Other owners include Bob Miller and Blue Robinson.
Sweet looking boat Ramona.
Sorry Cammd I can't help with the cold moulding definition, I'd like to know myself.
Select to expand quotecammd said..
Looks Gorgeous Ramona, but how is laminating different from cold molding, I thought that laminating multiple layers was part of the process, actually plenty of strip planked boats with only one layer of timber in the core, I thought if they are built over a mold they would classify as cold molding as well.
Cold moulding is when thin layer strips are bent over a mould. The second layer is usually at 90 degrees with a layer of glue between. Also there is hot moulding where strips are laid over the mould and heat is applied to the mould to set the glue. The strips are usually about 1mm thick. When popped off the mould the shape is maintained with out the need of frames.
Laminated timber is just flat bits of wood stuck together like plywood. In the 1950's and 60's it was the usual method of construction for skiffs, moths etc. A lot more expensive than plywood boats.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
Double diagonal in Queensland maple and probably built by Savage in 1954. It was built for Carl Ryves as a training boat for the 1956 Olympics. Other owners include Bob Miller and Blue Robinson.
Sadly, Carl passed away late last year. His family took Carl's beautiful sloop 'Mistral' out for a final farewell. His ashes were scattered in the part of Lane Cove River known as "Humbug" by local sailors (named by Alan Lucas for being "the most fickle part of the harbour", apparently). A fitting end for the man who was an upwind master.
Some interesting samples. All good types of wood. Looks like the first pic they have used Polyurethane wood glue.
The other samples epoxy and thickend epoxy.
Cold moulded is a funny one and different people seem to have different opinions.
I think cold moulding started during WWII. Glueing thin laminates over a wooden frame. The idea of using multiple thin laminates meant things didn't have to be steam bent.
The idea it was wood / wood strips covered in glass came later.
That's just my thoughts though.
Ramona - that is one absolutely gorgeous boat. One to get me excited about stretching the legs in a Finn. Finns seem like brutal boats.
Before the Laser worlds in 1987 I was out training and a competitor came out in his finn with his coach. I was very Laser fit and they both wanted to look at the rig. So we swapped boats and I was grunting trying to keep the Finn flat - really busting a gut and then they called out - "Okay you can start hiking now". I was glad to get back to the Laser.
But she looks incredible and I would love to see her out sailing one day.
cheers
Phil
Select to expand quoteAzure305 said..Ramona said..
Double diagonal in Queensland maple and probably built by Savage in 1954. It was built for Carl Ryves as a training boat for the 1956 Olympics. Other owners include Bob Miller and Blue Robinson.
Sadly, Carl passed away late last year. His family took Carl's beautiful sloop 'Mistral' out for a final farewell. His ashes were scattered in the part of Lane Cove River known as "Humbug" by local sailors (named by Alan Lucas for being "the most fickle part of the harbour", apparently). A fitting end for the man who was an upwind master.
Carl missed out on selection for the 1956 games but went on to greater things. Good article here by a previous owner.
oceanmagazine.com.au/head-in-the-clouds/
I would say there is a good chance Ben Lexcen did not actually own the Finn but sailed it when he lived with the Ryves family. Apparently he didn't like sailing it either!
Select to expand quoteKankama said..
Ramona - that is one absolutely gorgeous boat. One to get me excited about stretching the legs in a Finn. Finns seem like brutal boats.
Before the Laser worlds in 1987 I was out training and a competitor came out in his finn with his coach. I was very Laser fit and they both wanted to look at the rig. So we swapped boats and I was grunting trying to keep the Finn flat - really busting a gut and then they called out - "Okay you can start hiking now". I was glad to get back to the Laser.
But she looks incredible and I would love to see her out sailing one day.
cheers
Phil
This is my third Finn. I did a quick trip over to Adelaide over Easter to buy a nice Finn for my grandson. The following weekend I sailed it on a light day against my son in my old boat and another flash Finn and beat them. This boat was on eBay and not getting any bids so I bought it. I will sail with the other Finns in the club but just to coach the grandson. Finns are easier to sail than Lasers, particularly the new ones with wing masts. Watching the youtube videos of the European Championship just finished it's strange to see the lack of serious hiking with the new masts.
There's a strong Finn fleet at RQYS, I think I would seriously consider the Finn Class if I ever gave up racing the windsurfers. Not sure of the actual numbers but the fleet seemed to grow in popularity after it was removed from the Olympics.
Select to expand quotetarquin1 said..
Some interesting samples. All good types of wood. Looks like the first pic they have used Polyurethane wood glue.
The other samples epoxy and thickend epoxy.
Cold moulded is a funny one and different people seem to have different opinions.
I think cold moulding started during WWII. Glueing thin laminates over a wooden frame. The idea of using multiple thin laminates meant things didn't have to be steam bent.
The idea it was wood / wood strips covered in glass came later.
That's just my thoughts though.
The WWII twin engined De Haviland Mosquito was built of wood, probably cold moulded.
These folks are confusing the issue by calling it cold moulded diagonal planking. Haha.
I thought cold molding was a general term that covered various techniques that essentially resulted in a timber cored hull that was built over a mold, whether that was 2 or 3 layers of thin diagonals or a single layer of thicker strip planks or combinations there of, didn't really matter. The mold being a one off arrangement of cross sections/stations of the design arranged and held in place, the timber components are glued into place over the mold as the hull is assembled around it.
Select to expand quotesamsturdy said..tarquin1 said..
Some interesting samples. All good types of wood. Looks like the first pic they have used Polyurethane wood glue.
The other samples epoxy and thickend epoxy.
Cold moulded is a funny one and different people seem to have different opinions.
I think cold moulding started during WWII. Glueing thin laminates over a wooden frame. The idea of using multiple thin laminates meant things didn't have to be steam bent.
The idea it was wood / wood strips covered in glass came later.
That's just my thoughts though.
The WWII twin engined De Haviland Mosquito was built of wood, probably cold moulded.
The Mosquito build technique is amazing. You should look into it. They used heated moulds.
I know the guy that supplied some of the wood to build some replicas years ago. Each piece of wood was specially cut with the grain in the right direction to be strong enough. Incredible that those huge engines are only held on by 4 bolts going into a lightweight wooden frame covered in balsa.
Select to expand quotesamsturdy said..tarquin1 said..
Some interesting samples. All good types of wood. Looks like the first pic they have used Polyurethane wood glue.
The other samples epoxy and thickend epoxy.
Cold moulded is a funny one and different people seem to have different opinions.
I think cold moulding started during WWII. Glueing thin laminates over a wooden frame. The idea of using multiple thin laminates meant things didn't have to be steam bent.
The idea it was wood / wood strips covered in glass came later.
That's just my thoughts though.
The WWII twin engined De Haviland Mosquito was built of wood, probably cold moulded.
The Mosquito build technique is amazing. You should look into it. They used heated moulds.
I know the guy that supplied some of the wood to build some replicas years ago. Each piece of wood was specially cut with the grain in the right direction to be strong enough. Incredible that those huge engines are only held on by 4 bolts going into a lightweight wooden frame covered in balsa.
Select to expand quotetarquin1 said..
The Mosquito build technique is amazing. You should look into it. They used heated moulds.
I know the guy that supplied some of the wood to build some replicas years ago. Each piece of wood was specially cut with the grain in the right direction to be strong enough. Incredible that those huge engines are only held on by 4 bolts going into a lightweight wooden frame covered in balsa.
The hot moulding for the Mosquitos and the hot moulded Moth dinghies was because of the glues used in that period.
I had an interesting day today. I went up to Sydney to pick up some mag wheels for the new flash trailer I have to make for the Finn. The bloke I bought them off is a yachtie and a shipwright that used to work for McConaghy's when they built hot moulded skiffs. He left when they switched to fibreglass! He also used to own a moulded timber Finn KA 1 [Ron Jenyns}!
My favourite hot moulded boat is the Atalanta 26 by Uffa Fox. An Atlantic crossing capable trailer sailor. I would love to own one.
atalantaowners.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/A26-1959-Why-is-Atalanta-Hot-Moulded.pdf
sailboatdata.com/sailboat/atalanta-26/
Remember sailing a hot moulded Fairey Duckling Dinghy straight into a massive steel channel marker,as a child - bounced off - no damage - Opti/Sabot would have been splinters !! But do not capsize as have to get ashore/bail out.
Select to expand quoteEastCoastSail said..
My favourite hot moulded boat is the Atalanta 26 by Uffa Fox. An Atlantic crossing capable trailer sailor. I would love to own one.
atalantaowners.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/A26-1959-Why-is-Atalanta-Hot-Moulded.pdf
sailboatdata.com/sailboat/atalanta-26/
A modern version
"Pronounced tumblehome is reminiscent of a classic Fairey Atalanta from the 1950s"
www.yachtingworld.com/extraordinary-boats/la-28-modern-trailable-boat-cold-molded-mahogany-123493
Great little film on hotmoulding Firefly dinghies in Britain back in the 50s
www.britishpathe.com/video/firefly-racing-dinghy/query/dinghy+sailing
Select to expand quoteKankama said..
Great little film on hotmoulding Firefly dinghies in Britain back in the 50s
www.britishpathe.com/video/firefly-racing-dinghy/query/dinghy+sailing
In 1970 I was sailing an Imperium moth I had built the previous year but I had always lusted after a mouldy moth. I went up to Sydney to the Mariner boat builders where they were building moths and flying 11's etc and watched them laying up the veneers. They just used heat under the moulds there. Even a bare hull was out of my price range at the time. A few years later I bought a secondhand F11 for my kids. It was a Mariner moulded hull and was just beautiful.
Some of our first family dinghies were mouldy moths. Funnily enough, they were slower than the chined ones. The story of how the chined moths came about is interesting. One of my best friends when I was growing up was Tim. His dad, Greg Marshall, won the nationals in the late 60s or early 70s. He wanted to build a new moth but wasn't confident with building cold moulded, so he got his then girlfriend, to sit in his old mouldy at various angles of heel and he marked the heeled waterlines. Then he used these waterlines to make a chined version of the mouldy moth. It obviously worked as he then won the nationals and everyone went for Snubbys and the chined ilk.
Select to expand quotecammd said..EastCoastSail said..
My favourite hot moulded boat is the Atalanta 26 by Uffa Fox. An Atlantic crossing capable trailer sailor. I would love to own one.
atalantaowners.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/A26-1959-Why-is-Atalanta-Hot-Moulded.pdf
sailboatdata.com/sailboat/atalanta-26/
A modern version
"Pronounced tumblehome is reminiscent of a classic Fairey Atalanta from the 1950s"
www.yachtingworld.com/extraordinary-boats/la-28-modern-trailable-boat-cold-molded-mahogany-123493
Beautiful, 15coats of varnish, but out of my range at
SpecificationLOA: 8.8m (28ft 11in)
LWL: 8.0m (26ft 3in)
Beam: 2.5m (8ft 2in)
Draught: 1.7-1.9m (5ft 7in-6ft 3in)
Keel raised: 0.8-1.0m (2ft 8in-3ft 3in)
Displacement: 1.5 tonnes
Ballast: 600kg (1,322lb)
Engine: Torqeedo Cruise 2.0FP
Price: ?120,000 (ex. VAT)
- AUS$216,000 including VAT for a daysailor located in Germany.
Interestingly Fairey was directed to build recreational boats post war as it was seen as the best use of their autoclave and skilled labour to become commercially competitive.
No it's not a cheap boat, still it's nice that there is still a market for companies to build and sell beautiful things to.
It's interesting that the cold moulded construction method is regarded as an expensive way to build a boat, cost is probably seen as the biggest down side to the method given most opinions you read regard it as a very good way to build a boat that results in a durable strong stiff and light hull.
However second hand cold moulded boats are mostly often cheaper than equivalently sized and aged boats built of fibreglass. I have seen some recent examples of gorgeous cold molded boats go for a song, way cheaper than comparable production boats. I think people baulk because there is not a well known brand name attached and they don't understand the construction method and just think timber boat... I won't go near it. I had a conversation a while ago with a boat owner and when I mentioned Wapiti was a cold.molded timber hull his reply was just to comment on the excessive maintenance of a timber boat.
Select to expand quoteKankama said..
Some of our first family dinghies were mouldy moths. Funnily enough, they were slower than the chined ones. The story of how the chined moths came about is interesting. One of my best friends when I was growing up was Tim. His dad, Greg Marshall, won the nationals in the late 60s or early 70s. He wanted to build a new moth but wasn't confident with building cold moulded, so he got his then girlfriend, to sit in his old mouldy at various angles of heel and he marked the heeled waterlines. Then he used these waterlines to make a chined version of the mouldy moth. It obviously worked as he then won the nationals and everyone went for Snubbys and the chined ilk.
It's interesting the resurgence of interest in scow moths at the moment. There is a dedicated page on Facebook. Moulded moths are bringing ridiculous money! There are new builds of Imperium hulls. There was a new hull for sale recently for $9000. It was the same as mine but the timber work was stunning.
Interesting article
"There is a whole lot to like about this type of construction," Taylor says. "The approach is cost effective and the result is extremely attractive on many levels. The boats are light, strong, tough, quiet and well insulated thermally. A bright finished inside skin can be integrated into an especially elegant interior, the construction materials are environmentally sustainable, and there's not a lot of waste. They're not as light as carbon skins over lightweight core, but they are much more liveable and not nearly as fragile or as expensive."
www.yachtingworld.com/yachts-and-gear/how-and-why-wood-is-making-a-comeback-in-yacht-building-145791?fbclid=IwAR1KSoGlYdwvPJPhSSZ1TOg9c0ALmI2tmNrQd-s7B0y6byYcRF5MEAHMmsI
I have owned and also restored quite a few boats
without doubt my favourite construction is properly executed cold moulded timber
Whether it is ply or not does not really matter
yes it is expensive as you are building three hulls but you get the most durable stuff and light hull possible outside pre preg carbon pretty much
the abuse these boat have taken is extraordinary
the sound at sea is exquisite
The warmth when cold
the brilliance of the finish
but insurers are afraid because of cost of repairs or don't understand the difference between that and carvel
Anyway if I can just find a 50 foot cold moulded power boat with a gardner
L out
