So yesterday I picked up a couple of Andersen 48 ST winches (Identical to 46s except gearing) 11 years old and still in their boxes UNUSED for under one-third new price. Didn't really notice in the advert but they turned out to be bronze coloured stainless steel made to suit old style boats with bronze hardware.
Was shocked when I arrived and saw the colour but talked myself in to it when my totally lowball offer was accepted. My excuse is that they might tone in with my light tan original coloured non-slip decks which I never intend to change to the current fad of grey.
These winches have a good reputation so I was very shocked upon pulling the drums off to see that the drums ride on only one set of caged bearings at the bottom and a mere bush type of thing at the top (see picture). The winches although new inbox were manufactured 11 years ago and I have a friend with 46s 25 years old which are different inside and have the more common arrangement of caged bearings top and bottom.
I wonder if the good reputation of lasting 30 years+++ is based on the old version with top bearings whereas my version may not last anywhere near as long. Rather disappointed.
Anyone think this arrangement is adequate or have any experience with a winch of this type ? Have they gone back to more conventional top bearings after my 2011 versions?
I wouldn't worry about those winches. Andersens are the Rolls Royce of winches. Never seen them with the bronze tint before.
Well done they are good winches. The bronze coating is or was an expensive extra. No idea if they still do it.
We have smaller and bigger sizes. Same set up with only a small roller bearing at the bottom. Ours must be around the same age. Cant remember exactly. Still going strong and never had a problem.
I was told by the dealer that most of the load is at the bottom of the main shaft. No need for extra bearings that just create more friction. Like I said we have used ours for years and no problems or sign of wear on the bottom bearing.
Make sure you line up the drain holes when you bed them down if the surface is on an angle and don't block the drain holes with whatever product you use. They don't sit flush. There is a tiny gap all the way around. This is for drainage.
Pull one of the Allen bolts out and make sure it has tef gel or something on it. If not pull them all and tef gel them. You need to pull them apart to service them so its important these don't get seized. Put a good heavy duty grease all around the head of the Allen bolts just to double protect them.
Select to expand quotetarquin1 said..
Well done they are good winches. The bronze coating is or was an expensive extra. No idea if they still do it.
We have smaller and bigger sizes. Same set up with only a small roller bearing at the bottom. Ours must be around the same age. Cant remember exactly. Still going strong and never had a problem.
I was told by the dealer that most of the load is at the bottom of the main shaft. No need for extra bearings that just create more friction. Like I said we have used ours for years and no problems or sign of wear on the bottom bearing.
Make sure you line up the drain holes when you bed them down if the surface is on an angle and don't block the drain holes with whatever product you use. They don't sit flush. There is a tiny gap all the way around. This is for drainage.
Pull one of the Allen bolts out and make sure it has tef gel or something on it. If not pull them all and tef gel them. You need to pull them apart to service them so its important these don't get seized. Put a good heavy duty grease all around the head of the Allen bolts just to double protect them.
Thank you very much guys. That is very reassuring and helpful advice.
They are no good, get rid of them.........cheap.
PM me, I might be able to assist
I bought new Harken 46's and the bearing races are plastic. They are a delight to use and I'm sure the manufacturers know what they are doing. Those Andersens look stunning!
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
I bought new Harken 46's and the bearing races are plastic. They are a delight to use and I'm sure the manufacturers know what they are doing. Those Andersens look stunning!
Thanks yes I'm looking forward to seeing them on.
Went to the boat yesterday and had a nice 2 hour window with no rain but only managed to get the old winches off clean up and fill the old holes with megapoxy.
Had made some 10 mil ply backing plates at home the day before and painted them with West system epoxy only to realise when I got there that there is a ply core to the coaming tops so they may be unnecessary. The old winches seemed just to be bolted through the coaming with no protection for the internal ply then sealed with silicone and a few of the stainless steel bolts showed a bit of rust :(. Bit surprised that Northshore with their good reputation hadn't done better. Thankfully the ply core didn't show any deterioration so I slightly over drilled the old holes to make sure before filling them because they won't match up with the new bolt pattern. I will over drill the new holes by about 1 mm and brush on some West system epoxy before Sika Flex 291.
Might be an idea to still use extra ply backing since each winch will now have a circle of 10 holes rather than just 5 which has got to weaken things a little bit. What do you guys think? It won't be an eyesore as they are not really very visible one being above a quarter berth and the other in a lazarette.
Old Barlow 27s looked so robust ) 3 sets of caged roller bearings abutting each other all the way up the central shaft) they would probably have lasted forever. Great OZZie engineering (I think Hutton's made in Dural using ex Barlow machinery and probably dies would be very similar- and are reasonably priced). Shame to replace but so much easier to single hand with STs. Even when my 5yo or wife are aboard they will be able to take it easy :).
Select to expand quoteEastCoastSail said..
Did the seller have others? I need a pair of 40's
No unfortunately not :-(. I have been keeping my eye out for quite some time now on a number of yachting Facebook sites as well as Marketplace and of course Gumtree.
Keep looking because they are certainly around. I also picked up a couple of Maxwell 24s for my secondaries lightly used off a guy in Seaforth the week before who did have a whole slew of other winches but they were generally pretty big stuff in pretty poor condition.(size numbers are a bit confusing when comparing old Australian and New Zealand stuff with modern numbers based on power ratios). Spare parts cost an arm and a leg so not interested in stuff in poor condition although the price of the jaws for selftailers seems to be reasonable if you come across one with a broken plastic top.
You need to set up alerts on various sites and I just happened to receive an alert on the Andersens at 2 a.m. in the morning and immediately texted the guy who to my surprise responded immediately as he was in Phuket. The winches however were very local and being sold by his sister on behalf of a friend who had passed away.
Select to expand quotejulesmoto said..Ramona said..
I bought new Harken 46's and the bearing races are plastic. They are a delight to use and I'm sure the manufacturers know what they are doing. Those Andersens look stunning!
Thanks yes I'm looking forward to seeing them on.
Went to the boat yesterday and had a nice 2 hour window with no rain but only managed to get the old winches off clean up and fill the old holes with megapoxy.
Had made some 10 mil ply backing plates at home the day before and painted them with West system epoxy only to realise when I got there that there is a ply core to the coaming tops so they may be unnecessary. The old winches seemed just to be bolted through the coaming with no protection for the internal ply then sealed with silicone and a few of the stainless steel bolts showed a bit of rust :(. Bit surprised that Northshore with their good reputation hadn't done better. Thankfully the ply core didn't show any deterioration so I slightly over drilled the old holes to make sure before filling them because they won't match up with the new bolt pattern. I will over drill the new holes by about 1 mm and brush on some West system epoxy before Sika Flex 291.
Might be an idea to still use extra ply backing since each winch will now have a circle of 10 holes rather than just 5 which has got to weaken things a little bit. What do you guys think? It won't be an eyesore as they are not really very visible one being above a quarter berth and the other in a lazarette.
Old Barlow 27s looked so robust ) 3 sets of caged roller bearings abutting each other all the way up the central shaft) they would probably have lasted forever. Great OZZie engineering (I think Hutton's made in Dural using ex Barlow machinery and probably dies would be very similar- and are reasonably priced). Shame to replace but so much easier to single hand with STs. Even when my 5yo or wife are aboard they will be able to take it easy :).
Imho the backing plates should be used. The new 10 hole arrangement will have reduced axial tension loads (the axial tension loads will not be in all bolts just the ones taking tension due to the overturning moment of the winch - which would be about 8 of them or maybe all of them depending on how the winch interfaces with the coaming at the compression area of the base periphery) and reduced shear loads in each bolt compared to the prior 5, so the localised bolt hole loads in the coaming for the new arrangement will be less. But would still use the backing plates as well and oversized washers.
I would agree with r13, if you have made up backing plates you might as well use them for peace of mind. And as he says biggest washers you can find. Maybe even double washer. Say a washer for a 14mm bolt then the washer for the 10. The bigger diameter washers are normally thicker as well but most importantly it will spread the load more.
10 bolts sounds like a lot for a small winch? Do you have the manual?
Thanks for your answers guys but I may have explained it incorrectly. The new winch has 5 bolt holes as did the old winch but of course the holes don't line up. As the old holes have been filled but the filler is not unitary with the ply core or fibreglass matrix they should still be considered as weak points. The sum total of new holes drilled plus old holes filled all around more or less the same circumference will be 10 which may be a significant weakening. Yes I think I will put the new ply backing plates in as of course they will only have 5 holes around their circumference. Definitely I will use washers as well.
I was surprised by the bolt sizes for the Harkens. They are only 8mm. The instructions made a big deal about the orientation of the bases in regard to the primary gear, they have to be inline with the direction of pull with the sheet. Might pay to download a manual and see if these are the same. The Harkens are made in Italy which was also a surprise.
Double check but I don't think you have to worry about the orientation. I have put various winches down and was surprised there was no mention. I spoke to the dealer and he said it didn't matter.
Well I will correct myself!
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
I was surprised by the bolt sizes for the Harkens. They are only 8mm. The instructions made a big deal about the orientation of the bases in regard to the primary gear, they have to be inline with the direction of pull with the sheet. Might pay to download a manual and see if these are the same. The Harkens are made in Italy which was also a surprise.
Out of interest did the instructions make a big deal out the strength grade of the stainless bolts needed? If Bumax grade 8.8 bolts are needed rather than the "standard" 304 or 316 bolts which we have all been using forever and are more like 4.6 grade this could explain the diameter. Obviously it would be useful for all winch manufacturers to make a base bolt pattern which is not dependent on orientation - if this means 6 bolts not 5 in the smaller sizes then so be it. But the instructions must also include the bolt grade needed and associated strength nut and hardened washer.
The correct orientation is given on the Anderson brochure. See above picture, the rope should ideally enter the winch in line with the gear.
Thanks once again guys. I had missed that the gear needs to correspond with the point of sheet entry which of course makes sense once you hear it.
I had simply planned to line up one of the three drain holes with the lowest point. Presumably by design it appears that one of the three drain holes corresponds with the gear location and as on the starboard side coamings normally slope predominently outboard (which is where the sheet enters) these two requirements will not conflict. Might have to average the requirements on port side.
As an aside I was interested to have it pointed out to me by the great older gentelman that owns Australian Winch Co (who make Hutton winches locally) that two of the gears on the 2nd hand Maxwells I also just bought can be interchanged to give counter-clockwise sheet winding and the gear dies stamp in a "c" for reference in this regard.
Yes I too was surprised that only 5/16in bolts were specified as I think this is smaller than my old Barlow winches were mounted with. No mention of hi tensile and also strange that my little Maxwell 24s require 6 bolts but the 48s five.
Nice! if there's concern about the colour you can always get them chromed and there's heaps of places in Sydney that can help. Southern suburbs I used to use Enware in Caringbah.
Select to expand quoter13 said..Ramona said..
I was surprised by the bolt sizes for the Harkens. They are only 8mm. The instructions made a big deal about the orientation of the bases in regard to the primary gear, they have to be inline with the direction of pull with the sheet. Might pay to download a manual and see if these are the same. The Harkens are made in Italy which was also a surprise.
Out of interest did the instructions make a big deal out the strength grade of the stainless bolts needed? If Bumax grade 8.8 bolts are needed rather than the "standard" 304 or 316 bolts which we have all been using forever and are more like 4.6 grade this could explain the diameter. Obviously it would be useful for all winch manufacturers to make a base bolt pattern which is not dependent on orientation - if this means 6 bolts not 5 in the smaller sizes then so be it. But the instructions must also include the bolt grade needed and associated strength nut and hardened washer.
I was wrong! The manual says 5/ 6mm flat head screws. I was sure they were 8mm. I used off the shelf SS items with lock nuts and oversized washers. I'm not concerned with strength but more on the chance that someone might steal them like the originals were in Sydney.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..r13 said..Ramona said..
I was surprised by the bolt sizes for the Harkens. They are only 8mm. The instructions made a big deal about the orientation of the bases in regard to the primary gear, they have to be inline with the direction of pull with the sheet. Might pay to download a manual and see if these are the same. The Harkens are made in Italy which was also a surprise.
Out of interest did the instructions make a big deal out the strength grade of the stainless bolts needed? If Bumax grade 8.8 bolts are needed rather than the "standard" 304 or 316 bolts which we have all been using forever and are more like 4.6 grade this could explain the diameter. Obviously it would be useful for all winch manufacturers to make a base bolt pattern which is not dependent on orientation - if this means 6 bolts not 5 in the smaller sizes then so be it. But the instructions must also include the bolt grade needed and associated strength nut and hardened washer.
I was wrong! The manual says 5/ 6mm flat head screws. I was sure they were 8mm. I used off the shelf SS items with lock nuts and oversized washers. I'm not concerned with strength but more on the chance that someone might steal them like the originals were in Sydney.
Oh my goodness that's terrible. I was going to replace the covers on the winches but maybe I will just keep my ratty old covers. Being super shiny SS plus gold coloured they will no doubt stick out like dogs balls to any potential thief.
Wow M6 really is small. Perhaps the forces on winch bases aren't as high as we imagine. Maybe I'll just save the deck penetrations and glue them on with Max Bond ;).
.
Select to expand quotesaltiest1 said..
Nice! if there's concern about the colour you can always get them chromed and there's heaps of places in Sydney that can help. Southern suburbs I used to use Enware in Caringbah.
Thanks for that but I think the colour will grow on me and I'm not sure that you could actually chrome over stainless steel as easily as you can over bronze/ brass (not to mention the cost).
I'm interested in what your contact at Hutton percieves the quality of the Andersen to be. If a full stainless winch is required only Hutton and Andersen seem to be in the market. They are also similarly priced. I am swaying to Anderson due to the ribs on the drum. But never used either brand, my last winches were Harken alloy.
Select to expand quoteEastCoastSail said..
I'm interested in what your contact at Hutton percieves the quality of the Andersen to be. If a full stainless winch is required only Hutton and Andersen seem to be in the market. They are also similarly priced. I am swaying to Anderson due to the ribs on the drum. But never used either brand, my last winches were Harken alloy.
I don't really have a contact at Hutton. I rang Australian Winch Sales and spoke to the owner not knowing that he made Hutton winches and I was querying converting my Barlows to self tailers which wasn't feasable.
He is the owner although I didn't get his surname so perhaps it is Hutton.
He worked for Barlow/Barient in his younger years and bought a lot of their equipment after their accountants sent them broke. He offered to look at any brand of winch that I bought second hand and I had a query about the Maxwell's I bought so I took them down to him.
He's over 70 now but a great and knowledgeable guy to talk to and we chatted for quite some time in one of his 2 factories while he looked over my Maxwell's and pronounced them in good nick, lubed them and printed me out a manual all for free.
It was only then that I learnt about him selling the Hutton witches but I believe they are chromed bronze rather than stainless steel. They are very well priced. I can't imagine him selling a sub standard product although I know nothing about them. He also makes furlers and has a lot of OS customers and a backlog. He has given me a lot of time so I don't propose wasting any more of his time examining my Andersens which are after all unused.
Select to expand quotejulesmoto said..EastCoastSail said..
Did the seller have others? I need a pair of 40's
No unfortunately not :-(. I have been keeping my eye out for quite some time now on a number of yachting Facebook sites as well as Marketplace and of course Gumtree.
Keep looking because they are certainly around. I also picked up a couple of Maxwell 24s for my secondaries lightly used off a guy in Seaforth the week before who did have a whole slew of other winches but they were generally pretty big stuff in pretty poor condition.(size numbers are a bit confusing when comparing old Australian and New Zealand stuff with modern numbers based on power ratios). Spare parts cost an arm and a leg so not interested in stuff in poor condition although the price of the jaws for selftailers seems to be reasonable if you come across one with a broken plastic top.
You need to set up alerts on various sites and I just happened to receive an alert on the Andersens at 2 a.m. in the morning and immediately texted the guy who to my surprise responded immediately as he was in Phuket. The winches however were very local and being sold by his sister on behalf of a friend who had passed away.
My 'new' boat has Andersen 46ST main winches, 1982-1993 models. Both sides need new plastic top plates. In your research, did you come across an Australian supplier, or do you think I should go straight to UK parts suppliers?
Thanks, Rod
Select to expand quoteBushdog said..julesmoto said..EastCoastSail said..
Did the seller have others? I need a pair of 40's
No unfortunately not :-(. I have been keeping my eye out for quite some time now on a number of yachting Facebook sites as well as Marketplace and of course Gumtree.
Keep looking because they are certainly around. I also picked up a couple of Maxwell 24s for my secondaries lightly used off a guy in Seaforth the week before who did have a whole slew of other winches but they were generally pretty big stuff in pretty poor condition.(size numbers are a bit confusing when comparing old Australian and New Zealand stuff with modern numbers based on power ratios). Spare parts cost an arm and a leg so not interested in stuff in poor condition although the price of the jaws for selftailers seems to be reasonable if you come across one with a broken plastic top.
You need to set up alerts on various sites and I just happened to receive an alert on the Andersens at 2 a.m. in the morning and immediately texted the guy who to my surprise responded immediately as he was in Phuket. The winches however were very local and being sold by his sister on behalf of a friend who had passed away.
My 'new' boat has Andersen 46ST main winches, 1982-1993 models. Both sides need new plastic top plates. In your research, did you come across an Australian supplier, or do you think I should go straight to UK parts suppliers?
Thanks, Rod
Yes I wondered what would happen when they came time to be replaced but as mine are effectively brand-new I didn't bother researching that beyond knowing that Andersen are still in business. Sorry.
Decided to do all 4 winches in one hit yesterday so all the old holes are drilled a bit bigger and filled and all the new ones drilled and epoxy coated. Turns out the Maxwells despite being way smaller than the Andersens take the same 5/16 inch bolts and furthermore take 6 instead of 5. The Maxwells also have little raised ridges to stop the hex head bolts turning so you don't need someone on deck to hold the bolts whilst doing up the nuts below. Neither the old Barlow's nor the Andersens have this feature.
Definitely fitting the additional ply backing plates I made up because the coamings look like swiss cheese with 12 holes in them.
Bronze colour growing on me. Still a little odd but I think my non-slip deck colour saves the day.
So Andersen referred me to Ronstan for parts. While they don't list the parts online, Ronstan have Spring Caps in stock @ $36 each, so for that plus service kits I'll have my two '80's 46 ST winches looking and working like new again for @ $150.00
Select to expand quoteBushdog said..
So Andersen referred me to Ronstan for parts. While they don't list the parts online, Ronstan have Spring Caps in stock @ $36 each, so for that plus service kits I'll have my two '80's 46 ST winches looking and working like new again for @ $150.00
Great :). Thanks for the info. Have yet to use mine in anger because of the darned weather - after them taking about 3 times as long as I expected to install and service (along with a couple of other st winches I bought second hand)
It's interesting when you start looking for winch consumables how manufacturers often share parts. With pawls and springs anyway.
www.ebay.com.au/itm/223566161694?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
