I'm considering building a mini and I want to get clarification on tires before I buy anything. The intention of the question is to avoid buying something that will be deemed out of spec if/when I race. I'm not trying to push the rules or get and edge, I just don't want to spend the money on something that will be protested and disallowed.

I've seen the spec state 400x8 and 4.00x8. I Fisly site states 400, but I've seen 4.00 on this site. Are these one in the same? From what I understand, 400x8 is more of a lawn and garden type tire measurement, while a 4.00x8 might be more of a scooter tire measurement.

I've read that the intent of the rule is to put a cap on the overall tire size for the mini class. Apparently this is to avoid a tire size escalation (and expense) that happened in a different class. I'm fine with that and again, this question is not to push the rules any.

I want to use a durable tire that is made for the loads and speeds that I'm using it for. I see that wheel barrow tires are used, but it seems to me that a tire made for the higher mileage and higher speed will last longer. I sail at Ivanpah, CA in the US and that place has a reputation for eating tires. I don't want to have multiple sets on hand in case we get a few high wind tire eating racing days. I can see a wheel barrow tire lasting less than a week at Ivanpah. Those conditions steer me towards a tire made for many miles and higher speed. I find some 3.5x8 and some 4.0x8 scooter tires that I think would work.

The question is whether these tires would violate the letter of the rule. I think a 4.0x8 scooter tire conforms to the intent or spirit of the rule, but that might not hold up to a protest if the rule says 400 and my tire says 4.0. Has there been any discussion of the 400 vs 4.0 that I have missed?

2nd question: I see pics of the mini races at the 2013 Euros and there are clearly mini's racing with wheels and tires that are not 400x8. Especially the front tires - some of them looked like 2x10" wheels. These probably also comply with the spirit/intent of the rule, but not the letter of the rule. How is that allowed?

I don't think I'd have any problems with protests at a Nalsa event because we just don't protest. It just doesn't happen. The 2014 Worlds in the US will have racers from clubs where protests are more common. That is where the letter of the rule might be applied and I want to avoid being on the business end of a protest.

To sum up. What's the deal with 400x8? Are 4.0x8 tires allowed? How are the 2x10's allowed to race? Any thoughts?

I've been searching for about an hour for a 4.00 x 8 tire I found 1 (scooter) on the internet. The rest were were 4.00/4.8 x 8 tires. Some tires only say 4.80 x 8. Are they considered legal? Not sure what's going on with this. Was there any talk of this at the Euro's? I want to be class legal as well.

examples -

www.tires-easy.com/4.80-8/carlisle-tires/smooth/tirecode/5120511

www.amazon.com/Carlisle-Wheelbarrow-Steel-Wheel-4-80x8/dp/B004KT2FN2

gokartgalaxy.com/ribbed.htm

That's interesting about the 4.8 x 8 tyre. To add to the confusion, my small boat trailer that I registered for road use has the following markings - 4.80/4.00-8 (I imagine it implies that 4.800 and 4.00-8 are the same). The tyre also shows 4.00-8 nearby on the wall. They are a ribbed 6 ply tubelss tyre although I had fitted tubes at the time. They are marked as "KINGS TIRES MOLD FOR U.S.A" They are very tough and would wear well but be hard on the backside on rough ground, also rather expensive at the time.

The Falshaws KNO I have are made in Vietnam and marked 4.8/4.00-8 4PR. "Not for highway use" They are a knobby type, not ribbed, very well priced.

Other wheelbarrow tyres I looked at are almost always marked as "not for road use" and some are 2 ply rated and horribly unbalanced.

Landyacht and others have posted good info on wheels and tyres previously.

I am sure the object of the rule was to limit maximum wheel dimensions (rather than tyres) to a wheel of 8" diameter and 4" width. A wider tyre would be slow but good on softer ground, a skinny tyre of low friction being suited for harder ground. Blowies race within a class of their own most times but would also have to comply to the max wheel dimensions in a mini class comp.

Gizmo said..

From where I stand (just my personal view), The rules clearly state a 4.00x 8 wheel / tyre.

Gizmo,

If the official rules on Fisly stated 4.00x8, then I wouldn't have a question and I'd agree it was a 4" tire on an 8" wheel.

The Fisly rules state 400x8 and I don't know what the 400 means.

www.fisly.org/rules/isrr.pdf

A mini yacht is : [FGA 14/10/10]
- Any assembled land or sand yacht that fits inside a continuous loop of rope 5,6
meter long. - The rope must lie on the ground. The touching part of the tyres on the ground
must fit inside the rope. [FGA 18/09/11]
- The tyre size is maximum 400x8 [FGA 18/09/11]
- The mast must be a circular tube; no wing section
- It is recommended that a mini yacht has an effective brake. [June 2012]

here are a few old posts I found on the forum here about tire size. -

Ireland
150 Posts
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Posted 23/08/2010, 6:20 am Report email quote
Hi folks, Reference to wing section refers to both mast and sail / no wing sections! Yes, 16" front wheel would be out too - more or les a barrow / launcher size wheel is the max . ! Yes its the KISS approach and lets see how it develops within these parametres , whole idea is to keep it simple and encourage people to join in the fun rather than over complicate things. Gets more people involved in the sport before they get technical ! Alan



New Zealand
355 Posts
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Posted 30/08/2010, 6:56 am Report email quote
If you are looking at setting wheel size rules you really have to look at the tire sizes that are readily available and are suitable for the job. These days the cycle industry has a good selection of 16" & 20" BMX, and 24" & 26" Mountain bike tires which are ideally suited for landyachts up to Class5 size. The 4.00 x 8" wheelbarrow tire in 2ply (which has the same overall diameter as the 16" BMX tire) is also an ideal choice for landyachts and probably the cheapest. We have had BMX wheels on the front of our class 5s for years and had very few problems. The only thing you have to watch out for is some of the cheaper plastic wheels become brittle over time if left out in the sun.


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Posted 31/08/2010, 6:21 am Report email quote
aus230 said...
maybe that is why the standards now use wheel barrow size front wheels, I will be fitting one to aus230 to try next season at Rockingham Hopefully stop me from heading bush in strong winds you have a bit of a collection there clem
Standarts changed from BMX to barrow size for safety reasons. The BMX wheels shatter / break off in a frontal impact and they or the fork if the wheel breaks off can and have become speeding harpoon like weapons ! The shift to barrow wheels spoilt the svelt good look of the Standart and it looked terrible when we changed over. However when we sailed the Standart with the new barrow wheel and double fork it was a revelation. They are now blessed with better steering handling and less vibration transfers to the sail even if a they are a wee tad slower (questionable), and much safer too ! Sounds like Blokart and X Sail wheels are smaller here ! Whats the deal about the Blokart front wheels guys, explain it for me if you can please. The idea of the rule is that the barrow wheel 400 X 8.00 is the maximum size for a miniyacht , so smaller ones are OK . So I must agree the barrow size wheels do have some very good points , why not try using them and race each other online while you are at it ! Great fun for winter evenings follows, http://www.x-sailgame.com/ so try the small wheels. . www.x-sail.com/x-specs.php www.blokart.ee/Juhendid/blokartcataloge.pdf Alan


The 4.00/4.80 and the 4.80/8 are similar in size they both fit on a 4'' x8'' wheel (rim). If the rule is a generality of size not an exact size then they should be legal. I've found tires that fit on a 4'' x 8'' rim to be anywhere from 15.5'' to 16.8'' in diameter. the width up to 4.8''

With tyres and ply rating... the more plys there are the heavier the outer layer is, and the slower the acceleration will be.
So a 6 ply 'road' rated tyre with substancial tread will be a slug on a yacht compared to a 2 ply thin radial treaded tyre.

The use of 16 bike wheels (in my belief) has crossed the line of being NON class complient, so if it was allowed on the front then why not the rear, lets make them strong by using carbon fibre? Thats not the intent of the class, and the people using the 16" bike wheels seem to often push the boundries.

The Mini 5.6 class specifies the size..... so if the rim size is greater than 8" it should be out............ simple

Interesting debate .

As one of the individuals responsible for the Miniyacht class being introduced by FISLY and for the Miniyacht specifications I suppose I should help clear this up.....
Landyacht and I are joint President of the International Miniyacht (5.60) Class Association and the countries represented within the Association asked for the rules to be fixed for 4 years by FISLY , this was accepted by FISLY in Jan 2013 . The class met again in Sept 2013 at the euros in Germany and many interesting debates and discussions were held about the rapid development of the class.
the conclusion of the meeting.... Everything should remain as is . See the report on the class Facebook page.

The 400 x 8 and 4.8/400 x 8 tyres are the same. The intent is indeed a wheelbarrow size wheel and tyre combination as the maximum size. The specs state the "maximum" tyre size is ... they don't state that the tyre or wheel size is....., nor do they state how many wheels !

This was to ensure that the specs allowed x-sails and Blokarts etc to use their standard wheels and tyres if they wished to do so as they are smaller than most mini yachts were at the time and smaller than the spec maximum. So you can go smaller if you wish to do so.

For scrutiny at the 2013 euros it was the overall radius of the tyre that was measured or the width if there was any doubt that it was larger than a 400 x 8 fully inflated , ie very hard at about 25psi.

So if the overall width or height is no bigger than a 400 x 8 it's ok . There was no apparent advantage to a thin wheel at the 2013 euros indeed it at times seemed a disadvantage to have one I thought .

In 2009 when the Standart Class ( the only true International Monotype Sandyacht ) changed from a 20inch BMX front wheel for safety reasons after using it for over 20 yrs and the new the 400x 8 front tyre / wheel proved to be possibly better if not as good looking !

Hope that helps .

Alan

^^^ Why the need for chassis design rules the Mini 5.6 is an open development class where the design WILL change over time.
Class5 and Promo5 is way too restrictive with chassis materials and construction methods, ie; the metal mast rule has virtually killed the class5 in Australia.
Rather than try and restrict the Mini 5.6 class let it have the freedom to evolve within its simple class rules....... PLEASE.

If you want a strict 'one design' mini class yacht the Blokart fits the bill SO well......

Gizmo said..

.
Class5 and Promo5 is way too restrictive with chassis materials and construction methods, ie; the metal mast rule has virtually killed the class5 in Australia.

.

funny you should mention that giz.
there has been some good interest in class 5 yachts after all the new mini pilots watched us racing in september.
weve just started on a new CL building program here and the mast steps are being built in large enough diameter to accomodate a 55mm OD SDM windsurfer mast.
Greg smallman in esperence is also building ,and he has some carbon fibre building expertise,His yacht is also being built around a carbon mast.
Greg picked up a 5.2m sdm %100 carbon mast IMCS of 40!!!!!!!!! for $100. that is stiffer than my ally masts and probably 1/10 of the weight.
for those thinking about it I would recommend looking for SDM masts in excess of 4.8m in % 60 carbon or above with a IMCS of 35+ they a masts that are used to carry the massive 10 and 12m light wind racing sails .
I suspect you will find them on the east coast of Australia easier than the west coast.
You will need to reinforce the bottom metre of the mast internally and really treat the mast with alot of respect, avoiding dents, bashes or scratches,.
these wont be masts that you can just throw around
www.seabreeze.com.au/Classifieds/Windsurfing-Accessories/~an0ja/Excell-4902-55.aspx?search=kUAz4ywlWw9x4uvKNrfOmw==
heres one in WA , there were also 2 or 3 in sydeny.
sorry US builders , I dont know of any windsurfing buy and sells in the US.
maybe ask in the windsurfing section if anyone can recommend a site. or part of the US to go looking

Yes, plain and simply, the two tyres are the same as posted earlier, some tyres actually have the two sizes imprinted on the same tyre wall and sometimes the 4.00x8 is stamped as 4.00-8 with a dash replacing the X. The tyre fits a wheel rim of 4' width and 8' diameter, unfortunately it hadn't been clearly explained that the rule requirement was for the 4'x8' wheel (not the tyre). I think some confusion also arises with the outside diameter of the tyre which is about 16" (+ - a bit depending on the tyre manufacturer). That 16" has nothing to do with the rule requirement.

wokelliott said..

Yes, plain and simply, the two tyres are the same as posted earlier, some tyres actually have the two sizes imprinted on the same tyre wall and sometimes the 4.00x8 is stamped as 4.00-8 with a dash replacing the X. The tyre fits a wheel rim of 4' width and 8' diameter, unfortunately it hadn't been clearly explained that the rule requirement was for the 4'x8' wheel (not the tyre). I think some confusion also arises with the outside diameter of the tyre which is about 16" (+ - a bit depending on the tyre manufacturer). That 16" has nothing to do with the rule requirement.

Just to clarify :

As I mentioned earlier the specification states the " MAXIMUM tyre size is .400 X 8..."

The 4.00/4.8 X 8 are the same tyre.

What this means is that the outside diameter of +/- 16" mentioned above is somewhat relevant as it is the Maximum that the rule refers too- so too would the tyre width be relevant as it cannot exceed the maximum width of the 4.00/4.8 X 8 tyre when fully inflated.

The wheel size of 4 X 8 is not the absolute requirement - for example standard x-sail and blokart wheels and tyres are smaller than this.

Imagine a 4 X 8 wheel fitted with a 4.00/4.80 X 8 tyre, now inflate it fully to its recommended pressure of say 1.5 bar - build a box around it- if any other wheel and tyre arrangement fit inside that same box its within spec !

Alan


On www.buggywheels.com the description of one of the wheel and tyre arrangements that would be the maximum size is :

Diameter wheel 400mm

Width wheel 95mm

Width rim(axle length) 75mm

Description on tyre 4.80/4.00 - 8 inch(25,4 mm)

Type rim(width x diameter) 2.50A x 8 inch(25,4 mm)

Weight 2200 gram
Recomm. tyre pressure 1,5 bar
Bearings(2RS)20mm
Ply-rating 4 pr
Spokes 5 pieces
Material rim plastic
Color rim black/red
Distance pipe, yes
Use on hard sand****
Use on soft sand**
Use on grass***
Use on ashpalt***
Use on grind/rocks**
Corrosion resistance*****
Average* Excelent*****

Hiko said..

Isnt it amazing that something so simple as the mini rules can get so complicated ? and thats just the wheels !
it will be the thickness of the 5.6 metre rope next I hope not

Hiko, the rope debate is already over ! There was one indeed and it went into the different types, diameter and temperatures etc etc.
What resulted was that the Swiss developed a light flexible stainless steel cable with a magnet on each end, if the magnets close it's within spec if they don't it's not ! Simples...
The Swiss have kindly provided a certified copy to any country who requested one, and that's the official measure now. I don't have the spec of the cable or a photo but it was agreed that this would be the official measure.

So yes you are correct they fought about the rope ..... But yet again a simple solution for a simple class.

Alan

landyacht said..

I have a 8mm rope that is hot melted together its lost all its stretch so if ya dont fit , too bad

Ah but the OFFICIAL Swiss light steel cable will presumably be a smaller diameter than your
trusty 8mm rope so those using it will have an advantage over your measurements due to the allowable
extra wheelbase and/or track Isnt this fun? Or not as you see fit

OK I will bite does this mean a huuuuge track and a teeny wheelbase or is it more perverse than that?

Maybe a quad configuration?

Geez Gizmo you have flattened me. I'll go back into my box with pencil and paper and nail the lid on from the inside.